2008 Political debate thread

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Here in Britain, we've been spared the worst as far as literalists in government are concerned. Largely due to historical events such as Henry VIII and suchlike, there is a lot more diversity within the Christian faith, and we've become a lot more multi-ethnic in the last few decades too with immigration. Politicians pay lip-service to religion occasionally with references to Christian values and all that, and some of the newspapers moan about the decline in Christianity in our country and blame that for all the social ills while flagrantly disregading all other elements that make up social unrest. Personally I'm glad that religion is dying on its ass in Britain - it's one less social control tool for the politicians to use - we have more than our fair share of stupid people in our country who would be all too easily sucked in by the language of religious rhetoric and I'm glad that this is (hopefully) unlikely to happen.
 
I wish I could say the same was happening in America. I really do not care what people want to believe in, frankly it's none of my business. But when you have people, such as the far right republicans who openly acknowledge that they want to change America into a 'Christian' nation by changing the constitution, all I want to do is scream and pull my hair out. There is nothing stopping them now from worshiping their god, but they find atheists/secularists/agnostics etc so appalling that they would make it so everyone has to become a Christian. I think it's only a matter of time... There is a large anti intellectual movement in America today and people over here have lost the ability to critically think about things. It's quite scary when you have someone like the Pope tell people not to use condoms or birth control and they actually listen. Or when the government takes away basic freedom to fight 'Terrorists':erk: Which honestly, if they wanted to kill us as badly as our government says, we would all be dead now. If we get into one more war that involves any more killings I am going to put some serious thought into moving out of the country. I can't stand the thought of seeing more pictures/videos of more innocent people dying.

I think this all gets back to that social control thing you where talking about.
 
I can't stand the thought of seeing more pictures/videos of more innocent people dying.

First off war sucks, it's not good for the winners or the losers. However, what proof is there that the "innocent victims" portrayed by the liberal media, aren't part of the gang/problem?

In war, there IS collateral damage. It's unavoidable, no matter how much modern "smart" weaponry is used. The odds of it increase exponentially when you have the "bad guys" hiding within the general population, most of the time, with the support of the general population.

Our forces should be allowed to go in and get their job done. Fuck the embedded media! War is ugly, it smells bad, there are sights seen that are not fit for normal people's consumption. Bad shit happens on both sides. It's a WAR. There are no referees. Unfortunately, you'd better start packing, as there doen't seem to be any end in sight.
 
Ok, maybe I went overboard in saying I was going to move. I'm pretty much just all talk - well topped onto the fact that I'm so fucking scared of getting drafted into a current/new war. I have trouble eating meat sometimes let alone killing another person. I couldn't handle it.

I agree completely with you about the media, that's why I stopped watching the news. Because it is so hard (Impossible?) to get good, unbiased coverage on these types of events. They may be most of the problem!
 
Ok, maybe I went overboard in saying I was going to move. I'm pretty much just all talk - well topped onto the fact that I'm so fucking scared of getting drafted into a current/new war. I have trouble eating meat sometimes let alone killing another person. I couldn't handle it.

I agree completely with you about the media, that's why I stopped watching the news. Because it is so hard (Impossible?) to get good, unbiased coverage on these types of events. They may be most of the problem!

No problem. I'm not a fan of war, just a supporter of if you're going to do it, go in, and get the job done. Seems like politics have REALLY messed up the last 3 wars (Nam, Gulf War I & Golf War II). Is it a coincidence that this was the start of heavy duty coverage by the media on scene?
(I registered for the draft in 1982, if I got called in, I'd go. I'd go now, too)
 
I don't think it was politics that "messed up" the last 3 wars. I'm not even sure what you mean by that. My crack at it is that the public dissent became more socially acceptable during Vietnam after the government continually lied about the conditions. Since then, politics has had to respond to a more critical public opinion about war. Try to find that before Vietnam, and then look at today when there were protests about Iraq before we even invaded.

There are innocent victims that the "liberal" media doesn't cover. For example, during the Vietnam War, the US carpet bombed Cambodia from 1965-1973 killing 150,000-500,000 people half the time before anyone even knew it was even happening (later Operation Menu). Side note: some people in this thread like to point to Pol Pot as an example of mass killings due to atheism. How do you think Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge gained the opportunity to come to power in Cambodia taking US policy into consideration? And the irony is that the country that ended Pol Pot's reign...was North Vietnam in 1979. After which the US supported the Khmer Rouge and other insurgent groups against the more moderate government created by the Vietnamese in the 80s. (And by moderate I mean, doesn't murder a million or two of it's people.)

I think the only way the draft could be reinstated is if the population is strongly behind the war, and the world environment will have to be extreme before the government can sell us on it. I'd accept a draft assignment if I agreed with the war. My point in the above paragraph is that despite what ultra nationalists think, the US doesn't always do the right thing.
 
You've managed to skirt around each question without giving any names, dates etc. And fair enough... I didn't really expect any. There's some interesting texts on the topic available, Bart D. Ehrman's book 'Misquoting Jesus' is a good one. See what I mean about the lack of any certainty? That's what I'm getting at.

The editing of the texts is a particularly interesting issue, given that scripts were reproduced by hand and often changed along the way, sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident, sometimes out of spite, sometimes out of laziness. It's a great topic! I have some theology under my belt, but I'm not an expert by any stretch. I'm up for discussion rather than argument. Good stuff.
The last time someone picked on me for being vague (go back a page or two) I posted a rather long account of Germany's development into the 20th century and the direct and indirect causes of WW1 and WW2. Just because I don't feel like writing 10 pages to answer a question doesn't mean I don't have evidence to support my opinions. If you'd like, I could do one of those again. :D

Yeah, the editing is rather interesting. There are quite a few scrolls in Hebrew, Greek and Latin still surviving, but we have no idea if they are "original" or copied from others. Dan's post basically elaborates on this. Still, they predate the more heavily edited Roman and European editions.

Chris, you will find noticeable changes in wording (and thus meaning) between 1800s and now in the Bible editions. Even moreso from 1800 to some of those scrolls I mentioned, again for the reasons Dan said.

Now, In England I knew a lesbian girl who was really disenfranchised with the church because she thought she would be persecuted. That kind of discrimination is just saddening. In America, I wouldn't blame Christianity for the anti-intellectual movement. I would blame the media and the government, but most of all the parents, for all of these failed to instruct the youth. Those religious psychos are the result, not the cause. The Papal decree about "safe sex" is asinine for sure, but that's not America. That's the Vatican, a group I have no good will towards.

Jdub: War is brutal, yes. But what business is it for us to be there in the first place? Oil? Certainly they aren't the terrorists, or else this "threat" would be less now that we occupy their countries. The administration saw an opportunity to crush a potential adversary, gain some resources, and strike out blindly to create a scapegoat for the enemy they can't reach. Liberal media or not (As I recall the media is still quite sensationalist, liberal or conservative, they're always dispicable). Nam was a mistake. The gulf was necessary. This war isn't.

Like fullnelson said, the public supported wars before Viet Nam. My opinion on that is that they did so because the wars before that were direct matters of real national security, opened with the consent of congress, and the support of the economy. These new wars are at the whim of the radicals in power, without congress, destroying our economy, and are unnecessary 'defense' at the expense of our freedoms (patriot act?). Remember the Viet Nam "conflict" and the Iraq "conflict". How subtly the headlines changed to "Iraq War".

sorry for a fragmented, multi-addressed post.

Edit: And really, the best fix for the middle east would have been NOT to arm the Taliban and their buddies in the 70s. Let the USSR crush them and enforce their totalitarian, socialist atheism and you wouldn't have guys like Hussein and Osama or enemies like Iran
 
We are a few trillion dollars in debt and years over due to leave Iraq to their own device. Its time to stop being "the man" and let these loosers be their own man. Then our pathetic media could cover that and we could either tune into them or comedy central. We have serious problems at home to fix.
 
The last time someone picked on me for being vague (go back a page or two) I posted a rather long account of Germany's development into the 20th century and the direct and indirect causes of WW1 and WW2. Just because I don't feel like writing 10 pages to answer a question doesn't mean I don't have evidence to support my opinions. If you'd like, I could do one of those again. :D

It's not about you. It's about religion generally and the lack of certainty regarding scripture linked to the unquestioning subservience to dogma that is a feature of a fairly large number of Christians and indeed other religions. However, if you feel the need to prove yourself on an internet forum, go for it, but I would imagine you have better things to do with your time. I'm more interested in the works of people who have spent their lives studying the topic in question as they obviously have more depth of insight, and I'm sure you would rather get a more informed opinion than that available on a music forum too, no? But if you do happen to have stumbled on incontrovertible evidence for the unassailable historicity of the New Testament in the face of the likes of D.F.Strauss et al, then write a book, Goddammit - you could make yourself a lot of money over there! :p

I'd buy it!! :zombie:
 
I saw a program within the past year regarding this topic but I think it was about the old testament. That claimed that the oldest known scripts the Jews have translates exactly to whats in the current bible. I believe this was on the discovery channel or equivalent, such as the learning channel
 
I saw a program within the past year regarding this topic but I think it was about the old testament. That claimed that the oldest known scripts the Jews have translates exactly to whats in the current bible. I believe this was on the discovery channel or equivalent, such as the learning channel

Yeah, I also heard about that. I think it was a tablet found near the Dead Sea. Pretty interesting.
 
Some of the Old Testament commentaries available are pretty clinical in their assessment of the language used and possible/probable interpretations that were intended. Much of the early stories in the old testament are based around previously-existing myths (myths as in stories that contain truth rather than being literally true) from Babylonian, Egyptian, Mesopotamian etc traditions, but with a monotheistic spin on them. Could it be that meanings in the OT are easier to cross-reference with their middle eastern counterparts? Could it be that the Jews were better record-keepers than the Christians? With a large number of 'gospels' from which 4 were chosen to be included in the NT, which contained differences within them, I guess scribes of the New Testament copies may sometimes have had their own agendas as well as the other reasons we discussed for differences and errata, given the variations in belief. Look at the variety we've got now in belief... I'd guess that this isn't a new phenomenon.
 
I personally dont even care but I find all old hisotry very interesting. What I do know is that of all the groups in this world Im concerned with the Christians are the lowest on the list, I wish them well in their endeavors excluding anti abortion... I believe in mandatory abortion... HA!
 
Seems like politics have REALLY messed up the last 3 wars (Nam, Gulf War I & Golf War II).

So True... that and biased media coverage... In each case political pressure (driven in large part by the media) kept the military from either finishing the job (Gulf War I) or reducing the war to a measured response (Nam, GWII). The main mistake in GWII is that the "Surge" should have been instituted in 2003, but the unholy combination of the sensationalist media, the demonization of America for a poicy of standing up to tyrants and Donny Rumsfeld, conspired against a faster victory.
 
It's not about you. It's about religion generally and the lack of certainty regarding scripture linked to the unquestioning subservience to dogma that is a feature of a fairly large number of Christians and indeed other religions. However, if you feel the need to prove yourself on an internet forum, go for it, but I would imagine you have better things to do with your time. I'm more interested in the works of people who have spent their lives studying the topic in question as they obviously have more depth of insight, and I'm sure you would rather get a more informed opinion than that available on a music forum too, no? But if you do happen to have stumbled on incontrovertible evidence for the unassailable historicity of the New Testament in the face of the likes of D.F.Strauss et al, then write a book, Goddammit - you could make yourself a lot of money over there! :p

I'd buy it!! :zombie:
No objections at all here. Good post.
 
Ok, a rant about US politics...

I, fortunately, haven't been following the presidential race that much lately, but the past few days I have turned on the news and become sickened by what this has turned into. The two men who are running for office of one of the most powerful positions on Earth talk and act like out of control children on Maury Povich. One of them will command armies and weapons that could destroy the entire planet and yet, in regards to the matter of basic respect and intellect, they are empty. Any real issues take a back seat to personal jabs.

It seems like the presidential campaigns have to play out as some sort of bad reality TV show or, otherwise, people will get bored. Is this what it takes to get elected in America today? Theatrics and pandering to peoples ignorance and lust for something analogous ancient Roman Gladiatorial Games? I can't fucking stand it! I was on the fence for a while, but now I'm pretty sure I'm not going to vote. Maybe there is some intellect in both of them, but they have to be pretty good at hiding it because otherwise they would be branded 'elitist'.:ill:
 
Not voting is not the answer though.

As per other posts, I put this directly onto the US media. What you're seeing typically are sound bites taken completely out of context of what may have happened. I urge you to dig deep on the candidates and then vote for the one who best meets your ideals. Of course, Obama will probably change his stance completely within the next two weeks; so, I urge you to not check in on his camp till the last few days before the election. Maybe by then he will have figured out what his own base morals are and finally let us in on his plans for the next four years, should he be elected. :p
 
I think everyone should just do a write in ballad for Geoff Tate or maybe Dave Mustaine

seriously, until the people of this country totally ignore the democratic/republican political machine, this crap is never going to stop and just continue to deteriorate. I simply can not believe the candidates they gave us this year, its like they pulled them all out their ass. The democrates going for minority and sympathy votes for christs sake and the republicans another war/military monger. Its pretty pathetic when the political machine doesnt even acknowledge the world of financial shit we are in due to their decades of neglecting the REAL issues at hand. Total morons each and everyone of them, congress, the house, judicial, state, local, time for the gallows. I'm totally ashamed of my generation and hate to say it but I think our kids are clueless too, caught in the distractions they have been spoon fed by us. Worrying about the little pety shit like "personal rights" all the bleeding heart crap, while the white collar criminals are sneaking out the back door with our assets.

Science has proven one thing, a monkey can be trained to do anything, so the political machine followed suit.

Here we are involved in a "war" that I seriously doubt 30% of the country favors, IFTA which I doubt 30% of the country favors, immigration run amuk and completely ignored except for a little talk to keep everyone distracted. The most retarded president I have seen in my lifetime who got what 51% of the vote ? He should have been physically removed from his post, court-martialed and put infront of a fireing squad. Then we see who steps up to the plate wanting to run this country... we could rest assured they would keep their eyes on the target and their nose straight. Trillions of dollars in debt ? China and the Soviet Union taking our place in the world..... you have got to be kidding me ! a race to the bottom... Americans... ready... set... GO!
 
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