...and America reformed health care.

[spioraid]

I am all for a health care reformation. I'm not even opposed to the concept of a government run medical system that includes health care.

Just not HERE. Our Constitution is very clear on the government's responsibility as well as it's citizens responsibility. Both parties have failed and this is the result. The people giving power to the government it shouldn't have. And this is nothing new, the American public have allowed the government increasing power over the last century, this is the natural progression. It's good to see people realizing what's going on though.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Or get your friends/family/self off their collective asses and get to the polls in November, barely 35% of eligible voters actually take part in the elections that decide this kind of shit.

I can't agree more. People that bitch about politics and don't vote are shit head idiots that deserve every crappy policy they don't agree with.

 

[Chris_P_Critter]

You keep saying that but you don't actually cite anything specific - care to elaborate? I've written 3 papers this quarter alone on health care reform and the bill, I'm curious as to what your big gripes with it are.

We need reform, period - anyone denying that is either, as my buddy Rahm would say, fucking retarded or just not aware of the current situation our less-than-stellar health care system is in. I'm not sure if this is the best way to do it, definitely isn't a long term solution, but I'm glad it's out of that sorry shit excuse for a legislative body we have right now.

You wrote a few papers - don't get me wrong, I admire that, but I've been working IN the health care industry for 15 years and I see the privatized system everyday. I absolutely 110% agree with you that there needs to be reform, but, this bill isn't reform. It's just another government money pit, that will ultimately fail, leaving the tax payers with yet another burden.

But, let's talk about this, because; I don't want to argue, I would like to learn more - What are the tax implications for small business?

Let's run through a scenario - I am a small business owner, and I employ 20 people. I purchase the best health care I can afford for my employees, but, here comes Obamacare. The plan I have is not credible as far as Obamacare is concerned - it's actually better in most regards (which directly benefits my employee population), but still isn't considered to be "credible coverage".

What happens to me?

Do I have to pay an ennormous tax surcharge, because I haven't provided the exact level of coverage that the government requires? I probably do based on what I've read, which means there is less money in my pocket to even be able to afford healthcare for my employees.

Now I can't provide coverage for my employees so I drop coverage for them. Which means, they went from having a great health care package, to the government sponsored health care package, which is worse for them in the long run.

This is one scenario - can you tell me I am wrong on this?

 

[Skinny Viking]

You wrote a few papers - don't get me wrong, I admire that, but I've been working IN the health care industry for 15 years and I see the privatized system everyday. I absolutely 110% agree with you that there needs to be reform, but, this bill isn't reform. It's just another government money pit, that will ultimately fail, leaving the tax payers with yet another burden.

But, let's talk about this, because; I don't want to argue, I would like to learn more - What are the tax implications for small business?

Let's run through a scenario - I am a small business owner, and I employ 20 people. I purchase the best health care I can afford for my employees, but, here comes Obamacare. The plan I have is not credible as far as Obamacare is concerned - it's actually better in most regards (which directly benefits my employee population), but still isn't considered to be "credible coverage".

What happens to me?

Do I have to pay an ennormous tax surcharge, because I haven't provided the exact level of coverage that the government requires? I probably do based on what I've read, which means there is less money in my pocket to even be able to afford healthcare for my employees.

Now I can't provide coverage for my employees so I drop coverage for them. Which means, they went from having a great health care package, to the government sponsored health care package, which is worse for them in the long run.

This is one scenario - can you tell me I am wrong on this?

not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you've said but I do have a question ...

In your scenario ... what constitutes "not credible"? I mean, I have pretty good health care through my job, better than some others but by all means not the best available.

Just curious

As a side note I would also like to say that I never paid a dime for my health insurance through my job for about 5 years ... it was only around 2003 -2004 that all of a sudden they started taking out $25 a week from my paycheck. Since then and until about a few months ago, the amount they've had to take out of my check has increased to where I now have to pay out about $75 a week out of my own money

This obviously has nothing to do with this bill being passed since that is only recent and my check has been getting raped for the last 6 years more and more. Isn't it shit like this that this bill is supposed to curb?

Edit: Just to give an example of my health insurance ... I spent a month in a good hospital in a private room. During that time I had numerous crazy tests done and finally a surgery to fix a recurring problem with my left lung. I did receive an itemized bill from the hospital months later, balance due = $0

but the bill was about $85,000

 

[bpcrshooter15]

And just to put things into perspective... as if the government hasn't fucked up our economy enough, the healthcare system accounts for ONE SIXTH of our country's economy.

Our government simply has way too much power over our lives, and this bill gives them EVEN MORE power.

this.

I dislike many other smaller aspects of the bill, but THIS +10000.

 

[006]

This is a quote from my friend on the subject...

The problem with this whole deal is:

• it federally mandates the purchase of a commodity
• it penalizes non-compliance with a tax

That's not a power given to the federal government by the Constitution. Period. Arguably, it is a power of the State, which Mass. has already exercised and it is driving them into bankruptcy. Basically:

• you are going to be required to buy health insurance
• if you cannot afford it, the gov't will look over your finances to verify your claim
• if you do not cover yourself, the IRS will tax you to cover it
• in the case you don't pay that, then the IRS will proceed to fuck you in the ass like nothing else until you fly a plane into one of their offices somewhere

Also, there are new regulations imposed on insurance companies. Some are beneficial to the consumer, some are just plain scary. Insurers cannot refuse to cover because of pre-existing conditions, also you cannot be dropped for a new illness or catastrophic accident. The idea being that since everyone is now forced to buy insurance, the gov't established pools will be large enough (with the private insurance companies) that it will not make them go broke.

The bureaucracy will now mandate which health care plans can be sold by setting up a system of plans that only certain insurers can provide. When everything goes into effect, it will effectively shoot the largest health insurance companies into guaranteed winner in the market due to a government provided monopoly. At which point no matter what poor business decisions they make, there is now an open door for gov't bailouts, privatize profits and socialize losses.

The problem is not that the bill contains overtly tyrannical shit, but it kicks the door off the hinges and rolls out the carpet. Legally, we now must rely on the States to act as the watchdogs of this new system and hope that it acts in the interests of their citizens and, more importantly, the Constitution.

He's heavily into politics, not taking a class, as in for fun :zombie: And it's actually really annoying, but 9.999 out of 10 times he is right about shit so I figured I'd quote him and put it in hurr.

 

[SocialNumb]

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/texas-removes-thomas-jefferson-from-teaching-standard/19397481
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/11/government-workers-feel-no-pain/

This. At least we have libraries and the internet. Take those away and we would soon have a future generation of 100% idiots instead of 99%.

 

[ttrentt]

This is a sad day in American history.

 

[JeffTD]

This is one scenario - can you tell me I am wrong on this?

Naw, you're actually spot on with that, and that's at the top of my list of complaints with it (in addition to what 006 posted, scary how close his friend and I think ). What constitutes a 'credible' plan under this new legislation is vague at best, even if you do bother to read the entire thing.

I totally agree that this bill was not at all the right way to do it, but I'm also pretty confident that shit will be changed before it kicks in in 2014. We've got a presidential and two congressional elections before then... we just need to actually educate our retarded public.

 

[Narissa]

the funny thing is, healthcare was the only issue that obama didnt dance around when asked about it. granted, the majority of americans still dont understand what the hell he was trying to say, but it shouldnt have been a surprise to everyone...

 

[John_C]

In Finland we have free healthcare (Well, 13€ I believe for any issue...)...

How dare poor people get sick!

Healthcare should be a human right, not a privilidge,

This

As manifold as the problems with the NHS here are, at least it means that no one dies because they can't pay.

Every step towards a state funded health system in any country is fundamentally a good one.

 

[006]

Jeff: Well, the thing is, from what I understand, parts of the bill will be in effect in 2014, sure, but parts of it go into effect within 30 days of Obama signing off on it. Then the reconciliation bill may expedite other sections of it.

 

[XnaySaturo]

Free healthcare here (Canada) isn't perfect, but it's better than nothing (and better for sure than private-only care). Everyone gets help, but if you have the funds to get in front of the line, you can go private. I don't know all the details, but I still have a hard time figuring out why so many of you think it's such a bad thing.

 

[LeSedna]

Can any of you sum up objectively what does this reform say "in the end" ? Because even after having read all of things here, I don't actually get the subtles details. Especially because health care in my country seems to work differently but not sooo much (from what I have got).

 

[John_C]

I still have a hard time figuring out why so many of you think it's such a bad thing.

The still scared of the commies

 

[James Murphy]

i'm surprised by some of the american's comments on here.. surprised and dismayed. except for JeffTD's. the rest of you should just lay off the Beck/Limbaugh Kool-Aid.

 

[roy22341]

I'm not scared of the "commies." I don't like the government telling me I HAVE to buy something and penalizing me with taxes if I don't. And I also don't trust these politicians and the CBO to make any kind of reasonable assessment of the situation.

When Johnson created Medicaid and Medicare he promised that by 1990 Medicare would cost us only $9 billion and Medicaid would cost only $1 billion.

In 1990, Medicare costs were around $110 billion and Medicaid costs were around $41 billion. This is just at the federal level.

This bill is simply another entitlement program that's going to be unsustainable in the future. All the CBO estimates only range out for 10 years, 4 of those years this plan won't even be in effect. What happens when the money runs out? There is no plan - we'll fix it later they say. Well unfortunately for us young people in the United States, fixing it later is going to be while we're still working.

Sure the plan may work great for the next ten years or so (even though it STILL leaves millions uninsured), but what happens after that? Why is there no long term thought involved in this. We took a great opportunity to fix the health care system, instead we used a very very expensive band-aid to try to fix a gunshot wound.

 

[ruckus328]

Though the CBO has been wrong with figures, they're always on with direction. When they say it's going to go up, it goes up, and vice a versa.

Ya know, it's funny how when the CBO said the Bush Tax cuts would cost 1.8 Trillion in 2003, nobody was kicking and screaming about that. In fact, I don't remember hearing a word about it. The debt we're currently in happened over the last 9 years, it wasn't all this year. People seem to have a short memory.

But now, in 2010, when something is trying to be done to better the well being of every American, that is projected in the long term to reduce the deficit, people are acting as though it's the end of the world.

People need to stop listening to the fearmongering of Limbaugh and Glen Beck and start getting the facts straight before making asumptions and conclusions on things they know nothing about.

 

[roy22341]

Though the CBO has been wrong with figures, they're always on with direction. When they say it's going to go up, it goes up, and vice a versa.

Ya know, it's funny how when the CBO said the Bush Tax cuts would cost 1.8 Trillion in 2003, nobody was kicking and screaming about that. In fact, I don't remember hearing a word about it. The debt we're currently in happened over the last 9 years, it wasn't all this year. People seem to have a short memory.

But now, in 2010, when something is trying to be done to better the well being of every American, that is projected in the long term to reduce the deficit, people are acting as though it's the end of the world.

People need to stop listening to the fearmongering of Limbaugh and Glen Beck and start getting the facts straight before making asumptions and conclusions on things they know nothing about.

I don't watch Beck or listen to Limbaugh, as a matter of fact I hate them both with a great burning passion. Also, no one said I was a fan of Bush's tax cuts, they were misdirected and hurt our economy - no doubt.

Please don't assume that because I see flaws with this bill that I'm a Beck/Limbaugh loving, tea-bagging, neo-con racist.

I find it funny that the people who despised and hated our government so much for 8 years during Bush seem to think that there's something different going on now simply because we changed presidents.

 

[Chris_P_Critter]

Naw, you're actually spot on with that, and that's at the top of my list of complaints with it (in addition to what 006 posted, scary how close his friend and I think ). What constitutes a 'credible' plan under this new legislation is vague at best, even if you do bother to read the entire thing.

I totally agree that this bill was not at all the right way to do it, but I'm also pretty confident that shit will be changed before it kicks in in 2014. We've got a presidential and two congressional elections before then... we just need to actually educate our retarded public.

Cool - just wanted to quantify my understanding - thanks man.

We will see. I read portions of it, and what struck me immediately was how unbelieveably convoluted it was. I guess that's to be expected to some extent, but I am with you, 006 and 006's bud - the government was never meant to have this type of authority.