Any one here religious?

[SocialNumb]

Just happen to run into this: http://www.aolnews.com/crime/articl...-jeffrey-and-marci-beagley-sentenced/19389245

 

[DanLights]

I'm so NOT reading the whole thread, but I must reply to this, don't know if it's told before but I just can't read through all that

All of these religious problems that people like to mention are not the fault of God, but a the direct result of man's own sin nature. Jesus is the only way to solve the equation.

Didn't god make us? to his image? exactly how we were supposed to be? isn't he perfect? isn't he allknowing? He was KNOWING what was going to happen and still did it? he made us imperfect on purpose? God sucks

No bad intentions or trying to fight anybody, just rocking my voice out loud

 

[Ermz]

to be honest, i have a problem with the term atheist.. indeed, i have a problem with calling those who do not believe in the god of abraham, or any other god, by any special name at all.

do you need to have a name for people that don't believe in the Tooth Faerie? are they Afaeriests?

no, not believing in something for which there is no evidence is the rational default position and really needs no special name for it. e.g., i'm sure no one hear believes in leprechauns... and yet we feel no need to come up with a label to indicate our non-belief in "the wee folk".... but we certainly have a name for those that do believe in leprechauns: bat-shit crazy .

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.... those that don't demand such evidence, and just take extraordinary claims purely on faith, are the ones that are diverging from the nominal position, so having a name for them is appropriate.

I can't remember where, but Dawkins also illustrated this point superbly. There should be no need to justify the default position. The idea behind labeling us as atheists simply serves to divide the lines and provide theists some position with which to attack a set of beliefs which in reality are not a set of beliefs whatsoever, but simply the status quo.

Massive +1 to your entire input in this thread James. I can't remember the last time I so wholeheartedly agreed with one person for such a protracted discussion. It's so refreshing to hear such a solid and reasoned, logical approach to a debate that's normally taken to such abjectly absurd levels.

I must admit that I had, up until recent years, been fairly naive. My default assumption was that in this day and age the vast majority of human beings would default to a position of atheism or agnosticism. My failing was that I had not fully taken into account how truly insidious these religious institutions are, nor how deep the root of their brainwashing truly goes.

The fact that there are so many well reasoned and intelligent people about who are prone to believe in the most fallacy-ridden, absurd notions disturbs me greatly. It illustrates how truly easy it is to manipulate others simply by preying on the human condition, or starting indoctrination at a young age.

I would love to say that personal belief systems should be beyond reproach and that we should all 'live and let live', but this is ultimately an idealized notion that doesn't take into account the reality of the situation. Organized religion is anything but a personal belief system, much less something entirely benign. When institutions such as churches take on a status of being tax-exempt, I start to wonder. Here is an establishment founded on very strong belief systems, based on quasi-historical material that is extremely sketchy at best, and utterly contradictory and hateful at worst, being PROTECTED and NURTURED by the government.

Honestly, I'm just disappointed for the most part. I've spent the last few years coming to terms with my exasperation about the state of the world. I don't know why, but I inherently expected so much better from a race I'm forced to call my own. When I look around, and not only see the transgressions made in the name of religion throughout history, but still passing, I get a feeling of immense despair.

These arguments normally run the exact same course, regardless of their origin. The more reasonable 'atheists' will present logical arguments about why it is generally irrational to derive one's belief system from an organized religion, and usually provide insurmountable, real-world evidence as to why this is the case. The theists will ultimately fall back toward the shroud of 'faith', pseudo-justification and cyclical arguments. This is the true insidious nature of organized religion. It has positioned itself to be in a place that is metaphysical, and thus by creating its own bounds and rules, has molded a stature barring all reproach.

To say I'm sickened by these institutions and their implications on the human race as a whole is to put it lightly.

 

[spioraid]

I'm just gonna repeat this, i know it's terribly bad forum etiquette or whatever but it's a question i really do want answered by someone religious:

Can I be a Christian without believing in anything supernatural?

By that I mean follow the moral teachings of Jesus (which I often find myself referring to in moral arguments) without feeling the need to have any God knowing or caring about what I do.

Would that make me a good person? or would I still be heading straight for hell if it turned out that I'd been wrong all along and there actually was a Christian God?

To answer your question shortly....no. You can still be a 'moral and good' person without Christianity. But then again Jesus didn't teach on just being moral and good, His ministry went far beyond that.

I will often get asked in debates a question along these lines, "What about good people going to heaven? What about all the good I have done or will do?" My answer is the same, being like in image or goodness is not the same as close to God in approach to relationship. There have been many MANY good people in this world but it is not our own internal goodness that brings us close to God. Being moral is not end all question.

I don't wish to derail the thread, and I certainly don't want to set up another round of debates that won't go anywhere and just get people pissed off. If you do have specific questions or wish to enter a responsible and respectable debate, my PM box is open.

 

[amarshism]

Ermz for PM

 

[John_C]

I can't remember where, but Dawkins also illustrated this point superbly. There should be no need to justify the default position. The idea behind labeling us as atheists simply serves to divide the lines and provide theists some position with which to attack a set of beliefs which in reality are not a set of beliefs whatsoever, but simply the status quo.

Massive +1 to your entire input in this thread James. I can't remember the last time I so wholeheartedly agreed with one person for such a protracted discussion. It's so refreshing to hear such a solid and reasoned, logical approach to a debate that's normally taken to such abjectly absurd levels.

I must admit that I had, up until recent years, been fairly naive. My default assumption was that in this day and age the vast majority of human beings would default to a position of atheism or agnosticism. My failing was that I had not fully taken into account how truly insidious these religious institutions are, nor how deep the root of their brainwashing truly goes.

The fact that there are so many well reasoned and intelligent people about who are prone to believe in the most fallacy-ridden, absurd notions disturbs me greatly. It illustrates how truly easy it is to manipulate others simply by preying on the human condition, or starting indoctrination at a young age.

I would love to say that personal belief systems should be beyond reproach and that we should all 'live and let live', but this is ultimately an idealized notion that doesn't take into account the reality of the situation. Organized religion is anything but a personal belief system, much less something entirely benign. When institutions such as churches take on a status of being tax-exempt, I start to wonder. Here is an establishment founded on very strong belief systems, based on quasi-historical material that is extremely sketchy at best, and utterly contradictory and hateful at worst, being PROTECTED and NURTURED by the government.

Honestly, I'm just disappointed for the most part. I've spent the last few years coming to terms with my exasperation about the state of the world. I don't know why, but I inherently expected so much better from a race I'm forced to call my own. When I look around, and not only see the transgressions made in the name of religion throughout history, but still passing, I get a feeling of immense despair.

These arguments normally run the exact same course, regardless of their origin. The more reasonable 'atheists' will present logical arguments about why it is generally irrational to derive one's belief system from an organized religion, and usually provide insurmountable, real-world evidence as to why this is the case. The theists will ultimately fall back toward the shroud of 'faith', pseudo-justification and cyclical arguments. This is the true insidious nature of organized religion. It has positioned itself to be in a place that is metaphysical, and thus by creating its own bounds and rules, has molded a stature barring all reproach.

To say I'm sickened by these institutions and their implications on the human race as a whole is to put it lightly.

+1, organised religion sickens me.

Not the idea of organised religion itself, although i'm not keen on it, but the reality of the institutions we have in place currently.

 

[drew_drummer]

I'm not an atheist. I'm an anti-theist.

 

[amarshism]

How about the idea of organized intelligence.

 

[Zack Uidl]

I'm just gonna repeat this, i know it's terribly bad forum etiquette or whatever but it's a question i really do want answered by someone religious:

Can I be a Christian without believing in anything supernatural?

By that I mean follow the moral teachings of Jesus (which I often find myself referring to in moral arguments) without feeling the need to have any God knowing or caring about what I do.

Would that make me a good person? or would I still be heading straight for hell if it turned out that I'd been wrong all along and there actually was a Christian God?

No, you cannot. That would be totally contradictory.

In fact, this is one of the main differences between Christianity and other beliefs....

The idea of all other religions in the world is that you are saved through your works. So, in your case that would be what you mentioned by following Jesus' teachings. However, this is not what saves you. Christians live (or are supposed to) their lives in response to God's grace. So, what you do is not what saves you. God's grace is what saves you

 

[Ermz]

And yet another illustration of how insidious that institution is. At its very core is the notion that we are 'dirty', 'sinners' and that we need 'redemption'. It ultimately victimizes the individual, degrades their self-worth and provides a singular path to their 'ascension', all to make them amenable to conversion to this horrible, demeaning belief system.

 

[John_C]

No, you cannot. That would be totally contradictory.

In fact, this is one of the main differences between Christianity and other beliefs....

The idea of all other religions in the world is that you are saved through your works. So, in your case that would be what you mentioned by following Jesus' teachings. However, this is not what saves you. Christians live (or are supposed to) their lives in response to God's grace. So, what you do is not what saves you. God's grace is what saves you

well you know what?

that kinda blows

The only religion with a really good coherent moral text and then it values your relation with god over and above your worldly actions

 

[John_C]

And yet another illustration of how insidious that institution is. At its very core is the notion that we are 'dirty', 'sinners' and that we need 'redemption'. It ultimately victimizes the individual, degrades their self-worth and provides a singular path to their 'ascension', all to make them amenable to conversion to this horrible, demeaning belief system.

This is the very worst aspect. It is truly disgusting.

I am a bad person if i do bad things, if i do good things then i am good person, every human is born neutral with possibilities for good and bad ahead of them. I don't need salvation, i need to do good things and not do bad things!

 

[SocialNumb]

I don't know about you guys but it seems to me that having a "personal relationship with God" is just like having a relationship with a wall. If the wall talks back, it's time to get some help. (the first clue would be talking to the wall at all) Do you believers ever wonder just how long eternity is? I mean how long would one want to spend with God? A thousand, a million years? What about the company? Saved murderers, pedophiles, rapist along side with "good" people. Do all these saved ones just hover all around god like parasites? What is there to do in heaven? Can I keep a pet and shut my door when I don't want to be bothered? Will I ever get to taste a vagina again? Is there any sex? Does God have sex? When a baby dies, does it go to hell or heaven having never known "Christ"? As if anyone of us does . . . IDK, forever stuck in one of two places is a shitty choice. I rather just die.

The notion that God stuck a tree where it was easy to get to and a talking serpent to boot is pretty messed up. He could have just as well not made the dam tree and serpent and spared us this so called sin we are born with.

The whole thing is fail.

Come to think of it, he could of just pushed rewind on his remote and start over without the blunders. I guess he could just as well do away with sin, Satan and (which is a pretty cool guy) hell. But noooooooooooo

Edit again: I don't remember who said it "If such a God exist, we should seek to destroy him" Anon.

 

[John_C]

The notion that God stuck a tree where it was easy to get to and a talking serpent to boot is pretty messed up. He could have just as well not made the dam tree and serpent and spared us this so called sin we are born with.

that whole story illustrates one thing, do what god tells you, don't ask questions and don't look for knowledge above your station. Sounds like a good religion to rule people with doesn't it!

 

[Norris-wf]

That whole aspect of "original sin" really bothers me too as like socialnumb said, a baby goes to hell if they die because they are born with original sin? That's sickening! I went to a talk recently to see what the current status of things is, and there it was said "The only sin is having hostility towards God" that, for me, just opens up a whole new kettle of fish. I think I'll stick with my logic and science thank you very much

 

[John_C]

The response is ofc, anyone who loves god wouldn't do bad things. Basically, if you love god then everything else drops out. Great in theory, in fact people do awful shit anyway even though they think they love god

 

[paladin shredder]

Aside from Judas (who hung himself after betraying Jesus)

...Actually, Judas didn't hang himself, he didn't even cause his own death. He fell to the ground and his body exploded.

Acts 1:18

"With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out."

 

[Metaltastic]

Holy shit, never heard THAT one in Sunday school

 

[James Murphy]

thus the term "blood money" was coined

 

[paladin shredder]

It's pretty hard to communicate with a world chock full of people who don't believe you exist There's a lot of great stuff in there that you're missing out on.

I'm pretty sure if you are an omnipotent being, it shouldn't be that hard to communicate with people who don't believe you exist.