Any one here religious?

[Aaron Smith]

Yeah this thread is definitely unraveling quite quickly. I don't have the time to try to counter every single point that gets brought up, and I've already set aside other important things in order to spend time typing what I have thus far, but I do want to at least write a bit more on the idea of everyone being depraved.

And please, don't assume I'm depraved. Judge yourself, not me.

Why are we depraved? What did we do other than be created by Him in His image to deserve to be considered depraved by default?

The best answer I can give is actually a quote from one of my favorite pastors/authors, John Piper:

This is the way we "fall short" of the glory of God: We exchange it for something of lesser value. All sin comes from not putting supreme value on the glory of God- this is very essence of sin.

And we have all sinned. "None is righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10). None of use has trusted God the way we should. None of us has felt the depth and consistency of gratitude we owe Him. None of us has obeyed Him according to His wisdom and right. We have exchanged and dishonored His glory again and again. We have trusted ourselves. We have taken credit for His gifts. We have turned away from the path of His commandments because we thought we knew better.

In all this we have held the glory of the Lord in contempt. The exceeding evil of sin is not the harm it does to us or to others (though that is great!). The wickedness of sin is owing to the implicit disdain for God. When David committed adultery with Bathsheba, and even had her husband killed, what did God say to him though the prophet Nathan? He did not remind the king that marriage is inviolable or that human life is sacred. He said, "You have despised me" (2 Samuel 12:10).

Hopefully that makes sense. Human depravity, in the Christian sense, is not so much that we are visibly wicked by secular moral and cultural standards, but by a completely different standard. One more Piper quote that's relevant to the topic:

When every human being stands before God on the Day of Judgment, God would not have to use one sentence of Scripture to show us our guilt and the appropriateness of our condemnation. He would only need to ask three questions: (1) Was it not plain in nature that everything you had was a gift and that you were dependent on your Maker for life and breath and everything? (2) Did not the judicial sentiment in your own heart always hold other people guilty when they lacked the gratitude they should have had in response to a kindness you performed? (3) Has your life been filled with gratitude and trust toward Me in proportion to My generosity and authority? Case closed.

Did He build this depravity into us by design or was it something one of our ancestors did?

The short answer to this is...God didn't will for us to be depraved, but He did will to create humans with a free mind and spirit. I know this won't put and end to your questions, but to continue from here will require much more explanation.

Also, didn't God know this would all happen shortly after He created us? Shouldn't this have given Him some misgivings about starting the whole project in the first place?

The short answer to this is...yes, God knew how this would all result, but the opportunity for Him to preserve and display His glory was greatest in creating things the way He did. Therefore, our it's not an issue of us being punished for God's decision to make "imperfect" creatures...it's just that by nature, a creature with free will is not going to choose anyone but itself.

Was is Satan granted so much power? Surely a Creator capable of willing the Universe into existence could will Satan abolished and end the whole experiment.

I would answer that Satan is allowed so much power, simply because God has a point to make through Satan's actions... It is certainly not explained in the Bible as to exactly what agreement God has with Satan, but the ultimate goal of it all is for God's glory. Absolutely agreed about the second question- the book of Revelation is God's plan for setting everything right and for doing away with Satan for eternity! Satan's days are numbered, as is this world.

Uladyne, you're asking a lot of good questions and I'm willing to answer them in greater detail if you want. Certainly by this point, everyone else is going to think I'm wacko...

 

[John_C]

Human depravity, in the Christian sense, is not so much that we are visibly wicked by secular moral and cultural standards, but by a completely different standard.

Not trying to be too much of a dick here, but if I was to think up a religion that's good for keeping people in order and get them to do what i say, I'd definitely be including the whole "it doesn't matter what you do you're still a sinner" thing. It's just perfect. Coincidence?

Also, what's with the whole obsession with displaying his glory? That doesn't sound like a perfect being to me, that sounds like a show-off.

 

[Line666]

God cannot realistically know what it is to be imperfect anyway, how can someone that is supposed to be all knowing understand what it is to be ignorant? Likewise, how can something that only knows perfection create something that is inherently flawed or be fit to judge it for that matter? It's a contradiction - but of course being the absolute being, god wouldn't understand what that is either. Unless of course he isn't and is sitting upstairs having his own existential crisis right now.

The concept of original sin is also ridiculous - burdening people with guilt, even when they have none, is exactly the way to get them to do what you want in a religious context. Also, what happens to humans with no moral compass or understanding of their own existence, they can't realistically go to heaven, hell or in between because there were never any practical moral choices made.

 

[SocialNumb]

The love story continues:

 

[Metaltastic]

You know, I think it's pretty obvious that every movement, group, whatever has a bunch of assholes who take it way too seriously and are an embarrassment to and bane of all the other more moderate members (e.g. black metal kids )

 

[SocialNumb]

I agree but unfortunately people listen and agree to the point where a bill to kill and imprison homosexuals is put in place. There is a movement in America to do the same here.

 

[El_Gato]

Yeah this thread is definitely unraveling quite quickly. I don't have the time to try to counter every single point that gets brought up, and I've already set aside other important things in order to spend time typing what I have thus far, but I do want to at least write a bit more on the idea of everyone being depraved.





The best answer I can give is actually a quote from one of my favorite pastors/authors, John Piper:



Hopefully that makes sense. Human depravity, in the Christian sense, is not so much that we are visibly wicked by secular moral and cultural standards, but by a completely different standard. One more Piper quote that's relevant to the topic:





The short answer to this is...God didn't will for us to be depraved, but He did will to create humans with a free mind and spirit. I know this won't put and end to your questions, but to continue from here will require much more explanation.



The short answer to this is...yes, God knew how this would all result, but the opportunity for Him to preserve and display His glory was greatest in creating things the way He did. Therefore, our it's not an issue of us being punished for God's decision to make "imperfect" creatures...it's just that by nature, a creature with free will is not going to choose anyone but itself.



I would answer that Satan is allowed so much power, simply because God has a point to make through Satan's actions... It is certainly not explained in the Bible as to exactly what agreement God has with Satan, but the ultimate goal of it all is for God's glory. Absolutely agreed about the second question- the book of Revelation is God's plan for setting everything right and for doing away with Satan for eternity! Satan's days are numbered, as is this world.

Uladyne, you're asking a lot of good questions and I'm willing to answer them in greater detail if you want. Certainly by this point, everyone else is going to think I'm wacko...

"Philoshophical" RHETORICS about the human being good or bad by nature, the favourite speech of the religious and still a non answered question. Your priest saying nothing with a lot of words is the game of the clergy.


**** I don't think this is an important point to believe or not


I'm more interested in the REALITY. What about the FACTS you're actually supporting NOW?¿


Do I need to repeat them? Oh, I now remember that religious only take what they are interested in.


Another FACTS nowadays:

-PEDOPHILES AND THE POPE: Last Friday, a german paper said the current Pope gave shelter to a priest back in 1986 that abused from children for some time and the put him back in a church. Now he's still in that church in Baviera.

the day after (today) the pope starts a campaign against child abuse in churches. I call that A HYPOCRITE CLEAN-UP that grinds the top of the Catholicism.



-A priest here in Spain is WHORING himself in the newspapers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He stole €17.000 from the church also!!! WTF, A PRIEST! So, excuse me if I don't trust them.

 

[Uladyne]

The short answer to this is...God didn't will for us to be depraved, but He did will to create humans with a free mind and spirit...

...God knew how this would all result, but the opportunity for Him to preserve and display His glory was greatest in creating things the way He did. Therefore, our it's not an issue of us being punished for God's decision to make "imperfect" creatures...it's just that by nature, a creature with free will is not going to choose anyone but itself.

I appreciate the well thought out responses, but what I gather from them is the notion that according to Christanity, God started this whole "project" (existence) as a sort of exhibit to show how awesome He is. In my point of view it is very degrading and severly diminishes the quality of existence. It's as one day God was bored being the only thing in existence and said, "Damn, I'm awesome. Too bad there isn't anyone else to experience my awesome-ness... I have an idea: I'll create a plane of existence where little creatures can live, and they can serve me and see how awesome I am. I will give them free will, so that if they choose to worship me and be greatful for my gift of existence, it will be more genuine than if they followed me and were greatful by default.

"Any of these creatures who do not show enough gratitude for what I have provided them with, or do not notice my awesomeness, will be sent away to spend all eternity suffering relentless agony with another of my creations which will have great power over them, but with whom I will be displeased because he will betray me."

I greatly respect that your viewpoints seem to be thought out and not just blindly followed. I can also see from the responses you've provided that your viewpoint makes perfect sense to you, from how you look at the issue. Being one who used to believe, I can see how all of that can make sense to someone "on the inside", but from my point of view it doesnt quite seem to come together.

I think it all stems from foundation of whether one believes that the Bible is the inspired word of God or if humans wrote it. Without the "divine inspiration" foundation, the rest comes down pretty quickly.

 

[ParsonsMatt]

Aaron, are you reading what you are writing? You couldn't have possibly given better reasoning for why Christianity is completely evil.

 

[John_C]

Christianity works if and only if you believe. What a lot of religious people don't realise is how laughably ridiculous it is if you don't start with the initial belief that its all true. Which effectively means you have a choice:

follow reason 100% which precludes being a Christian,
or start from an arbitrary position of belief, which then allows all sorts of improbabilities and inconsistencies to drop away and be left with Christianity somehow making sense.

 

[El_Gato]

The short answer to this is...God didn't will for us to be depraved, but He did will to create humans with a free mind and spirit. I know this won't put and end to your questions, but to continue from here will require much more explanation.



The short answer to this is...yes, God knew how this would all result, but the opportunity for Him to preserve and display His glory was greatest in creating things the way He did. Therefore, our it's not an issue of us being punished for God's decision to make "imperfect" creatures...it's just that by nature, a creature with free will is not going to choose anyone but itself.

What god are we talking about? ahhhhh I know, the only TRUE ONE that every religion is trying to seize for themselves. Others are bullshit then.

Seriously now, "HE" doesn't know anything.


Just simply because the principle of FREE WILL, the OMNISCIENCE knowing about the future and what humans will do are just OPPOSITE concepts.

Or we are doing free will or we're blindly following a pre-existent path god made for us all.

If this is the path he chose for us, let me hate him.

If it's free will, it clearly nulls the reasoning christian give about that god knows everything.


Some religions accept free will, some not. They all tried to explain this paradox but was never resolved. But yeah, yours is the only true one

 

[John_C]

Haha i'd totally missed that.

If God is omniscient then humans cannot have free will as the future is fixed simply by God's knowledge of it

so either God isn't all knowing, or all our actions are predetermined. Which will you choose, Christianity?

 

[Uladyne]

Haha i'd totally missed that.

If God is omniscient then humans cannot have free will as the future is fixed simply by God's knowledge of it

so either God isn't all knowing, or all our actions are predetermined. Which will you choose, Christianity?

I think the common response to the mention of this paradox is that we are given free will within a certain framework. "Freewill with limitations." But then that isn't free will at all.

 

[Jeds7800]

I think the common response to the mention of this paradox is that we are given free will within a certain framework. "Freewill with limitations." But then that isn't free will at all.

I thought the common response was something like "god knows what you're going to decide, but you still made the decision."

I don't see how someone knowing what you're going to decide negates free will.

 

[Uladyne]

I don't see how someone knowing what you're going to decide negates free will.

If the future is known, no choices can be made to alter it. If the you can't plan your own course, you have no free will. Your every decision had been mapped out long before your earliest ancestors we're conceived.

On the the other side of the coin, if you can change your course at will (The definition of free will) your future is ever-changing. Since everyone has an impact on the rest of the world, everyone's free will keeps the future constantly changing, unable to be nailed down and foretold.

 

[ParsonsMatt]

People do not have free will. In any decision you make, there are certain factors that will cause you to decide the way you do, and it isn't that you can't defy them, but that you don't want to and you won't choose to.

For instance, when you decide what food you want to eat tonight... you think, "What do I want to eat?", "What can I afford?", "What is easy to make?", etc... And the answer to all of these questions, when combined with your taste, will be one thing. And you will reliably make that exact same choice given the exact same factors. You don't have "free will" as your choice is not an exercise of free will, but rather the factors that influence your decision summing up and pointing to the option that you eventually choose.

If you were to know all of the factors that influenced a decision, you'd be able to predict the decision. An omniscient being would know all of these factors for every decision ever made, and thus be able to predict and/or know the outcome of every decision.

In order to understand why an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being would be responsible for every decision ever made, you have to first understand that an eternal being does not see or experience time in the same way that a temporal being would. They'd be able to see the future and immediately understand every possible repercussion of every possible start condition. When God chose the start conditions for the universe, he could see the outcome of everything and decided that that was how he wanted everything.

The analogy that a lot of Christian apologists use to defend this sort of thing, is that a person on top of a mountain that can see two train tracks and their intersection may be able to predict that two trains are going to collide, but he isn't responsible for it nor is he controlling it. The obvious rebuttal is that he IS indeed responsible, if he is the one that is controlling when the trains leave the stations and how fast they'll travel. And since God created the start conditions of the universe as he did, he has explicitly decided and approved upon every event that has ever happened in the history of the universe, including obvious evils, and is therefore responsible for them.

If I create a computer program that will draw a picture, the computer program is not "responsible" for drawing the picture. I am, because I created the program and I created the routine that it would run. The same applies to God. God is inherently responsible for every evil act that has ever happened, and this is quite clearly in contradiction with any definition of God that includes good.

 

[EerieVon]

We are the sheep, Jesus is the shepard

What is the role of the shepard--to watch over and protect his sheep from the wolves until they get mature and fat enough and then lead them to slaughter

 

[sadistik necrofiend]

Spiritual person here, but I feel the limitations of religion do not apply to this state of being. It does not need to be named and well spirituality seems close enough I guess.

Raised Mormon which I realized very early on was very odd and did not resonate with me at all.
Later on became atheist until a few years back, through some meditative experiences and supernatural ones, I am agnostic. Also having a kid sure can be a mindfuck. You look in awe and have some sort of knowing that this is not just some form of random evolution.

The birth process to me seems like one of the most divine things there is. The growth of a human being, goddamn that shit is crazy. I had a theory that the baby's first words are not just wholly from natural observations, but partially from a divine template which is shared conciously among all humans in that state of development. Again a theory, but it was pretty interesting to think about.

I also feel very close to oneness. Somehow we humans strayed from the infinite source. That everything is one and infinite and that life is just a dream being played by infinity as its videogame or matrix if you will. Amazing stuff.

 

[John_C]

Spiritual person here, but I feel the limitations of religion do not apply to this state of being. It does not need to be named and well spirituality seems close enough I guess.

Raised Mormon which I realized very early on was very odd and did not resonate with me at all.
Later on became atheist until a few years back, through some meditative experiences and supernatural ones, I am agnostic. Also having a kid sure can be a mindfuck. You look in awe and have some sort of knowing that this is not just some form of random evolution.

The birth process to me seems like one of the most divine things there is. The growth of a human being, goddamn that shit is crazy. I had a theory that the baby's first words are not just wholly from natural observations, but partially from a divine template which is shared conciously among all humans in that state of development. Again a theory, but it was pretty interesting to think about.

I also feel very close to oneness. Somehow we humans strayed from the infinite source. That everything is one and infinite and that life is just a dream being played by infinity as its videogame or matrix if you will. Amazing stuff.

Urmm maybe........but then again, probably not

 

[STINNETT]

I can't get on with the idea of a God who threatens me with eternal torment if I question his infinite love.

I had an ex-girlfriend like that and everybody agreed that she was a heinous bitch.