Personified gods are most likely a projection, and not a reality. The best religions are transcendent and not dualistic.
Atheism (Do you believe in God? If yes, then why?)
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Personified gods are most likely a projection, and not a reality. The best religions are transcendent and not dualistic.
I'm of the belief that in a world such as ours, religion, regardless of how such beliefs are constructed and accepted (ie., by logic or emotion) is an important part of what it means to be human, and difficult to argue against.
To quote Norsemaiden; "So that's that then! Atheists win the argument!"
I really can't relate to this sort of thinking. From where I stand I don't see any clear winner or loser in any of this, but I choose not to involve myself personally. In reading that statement though, I got the impression that the truth was only important to the extent of being victorious, whereby it may not have even mattered if what Seditious had posted was true or not, only that we accepted it over the alternative.
To quote Norsemaiden; "So that's that then! Atheists win the argument!"
I really can't relate to this sort of thinking. From where I stand I don't see any clear winner or loser in any of this, but I choose not to involve myself personally. In reading that statement though, I got the impression that the truth was only important to the extent of being victorious, whereby it may not have even mattered if what Seditious had posted was true or not, only that we accepted it over the alternative.
difficult to argue against? I think philosophy covers the construction of all sorts of beliefs, and fiction writing will cover all the rest which can't be taken seriously. we need religion for nothing in the realm of belief.
nothing in this thread would convince me to call myself an Atheist, as 99.9% of what I've read on the topic doesn't either, it's all at best arguing for Agnosticism, but I do have my one argument for Atheism which I'm working on, without which I would see no warrant to call myself an Atheist. I think there is a clear winner, but I've yet to find anyone articulate it clearly, though someone very well may have.
ÎÏεβοÏ
Member
I disagree--spirituality, NOT religion, is an important part of what it means to be human. Religion is the corrupt corporatized version of real spirituality, and leads to nothing but spiritual darkness. Religion, at least the modern concept of such, is in no way an important part of what it means to be human.
ÎÏεβοÏ
Member
Nearly all intelligent atheists are agnostic as well; there is no way to prove that god doesn't exist, we just accept that it is incredibly unlikely and meaningless to believe in some literal, supernatural, heavenly being. But, we don't say it is impossible, rather that it makes no logical or rational sense, hence agnostic [accepting that it is impossible to prove god's existance or non-existance].
Religion is mans construction, and it continues to provide many psychological benefits (ie., a means for socialization, freedom from guilt etc.) regardless of how corrupt you may feel it is. Being a part of a religion is healthy in my opinion, and it doesn't even have to make sense.
didn't expect anyone to say that, unless in the form of 'religion promises to aleviate all the guilt it imposes on you'
forgive me father. for I didn't love my neighbour as thyself
yea, really, if religion is helpful then the crack dealer who gives you free samples til you get addicted is helpful.
ÎÏεβοÏ
Member
Uhm, so lieing to yourself in order to not have to be strong is "beneficial"?
All that such religion creates is weakness and ignorance, no real benifits.
This is a great song:
KNEEL TO THE CROSS
Give us our bread and bury our dead
And kneel to the cross on the wall
Whether burnt at the stake or drunk at the wake
Just kneel to the cross on the wall
We've original sin, but we might just get in
If we beg to the cross on the wall
It's rattle your sabre and love your neighbours
But kneel to that cross on the wall.
See the roof fall, hear the bells crash
As flesh and bone turn to ash
Tried to conquer the sun with a Christian frost
The corpses' stench beneath the cross
Give them gold and they'll save your soul
And kneel to the cross on the wall
Hail to the boss of the great unwashed
And kneel to the cross on the wall
They wail and weep, the march of the sheep
As they go to the cross on the wall
And it's ever so wrong to dare to be strong
So kneel to the cross on the wall
To say it's "lying to ones self" is probably not as correct as it is to say it's choosing to do that which best serves the individual from their perspective. Sometimes, you just want a bigmac and fries, regardless of the trans-fats. Sometimes in order to overcome our circumstance, we have to "lessen the load", as it were.
That aside, is it even possible to lie to oneself and believe it? This sort of implies a split in mind, but over the longterm each of us conditions ourselves in one way or the other, sometimes in the face of truth, just so that life becomes bearable, it's evolution, we seek to fulfill our needs and I don't think there's anything wrong with that so long as ones opinions do not negatively effect the lives of others.
That aside, is it even possible to lie to oneself and believe it? This sort of implies a split in mind, but over the longterm each of us conditions ourselves in one way or the other, sometimes in the face of truth, just so that life becomes bearable, it's evolution, we seek to fulfill our needs and I don't think there's anything wrong with that so long as ones opinions do not negatively effect the lives of others.
ÎÏεβοÏ
Member
From their flawed perspective, but they have no clue what best serves them. All religion does is give people excuses so they they do not have to confront their fears and develope a bit of strength. It is a weak and cowardly way out, and by no means improves humanity, unless you call breeding weak cowards "improvement." They decieve themselves and live in ignorance, combating logic and reason with their religion, while living in absolute spiritual darkness and misunderstanding. There is no upside, they trick themselves in a facade of content, while deep within EVERYTHING is missing. Religion leads to so many problems, and nothing good; it has caused a huge amount of damage and problems in the past.
Though I hope we are talking about the same thing--when I say religion I mean the modern concept, the christian denominations, islam, judaism, hinduism, etc.. Not things like heathenism and naturalist faiths, not rational and valuable spiritual paths--which many of the ancient of "religions" are.
And of lieing to oneself means to force oneself to belief a deceit and logical fallacy only because of wanting to believe in such so much, a truly weak and cowardly path. This is not evolution, this only leads do combating evolution. Evolution doesn't occur by selection of the most useless and pathetically low denominator [religion], but rather the greatest, the fittest.
Reaping Clarity
The Grimmest Reaper
Well this is the way I see it. I believe in God, I don't pray nor do I worship him in anyway, now it's been stated that you only must solomly believe in God in order to gain entrance to Heaven, unless ofcourse you break any of the 10 commandments many times which will condemn to the deepest depths of Hell.
But some things aren't just fair about Christianity, the second God created a certain person, wouldn't he know where they would go in life? Would they murder thousands of people? Or is this supposed to the work of Satan which provides the impulse to someone to commit a sin and if so, If Satan / Hell / Lucifer never existed would everybody be perfect? Now I myself am not perfect, I have commited sins and have surely regretted few of them.
Basically my view is: If God is true, along with Christianity I will go to Heaven, If Scientology is true I will just die, If it's something else then my oh my there is nothing for me to do.
But some things aren't just fair about Christianity, the second God created a certain person, wouldn't he know where they would go in life? Would they murder thousands of people? Or is this supposed to the work of Satan which provides the impulse to someone to commit a sin and if so, If Satan / Hell / Lucifer never existed would everybody be perfect? Now I myself am not perfect, I have commited sins and have surely regretted few of them.
Basically my view is: If God is true, along with Christianity I will go to Heaven, If Scientology is true I will just die, If it's something else then my oh my there is nothing for me to do.
Norsemaiden
barbarian
Does Heaven sound a fun place to spend all eternity? Does desiring to go there affect your actions on earth, such that you live your life in anticipation of an afterlife?
Some amusing Cioran quotes on this subject. He had one about heaven being eternal ennui, but I cant find it.
Tyranny destroys or strengthens the individual; freedom enervates him, until he becomes no more than a puppet. Man has more chances of saving himself by hell than by paradise.
All nihilists have wrestled with God. One more proof of his kinship with nothingness. After you have trampled everything underfoot, his is the last bastion of nothingness left(Tears and Saints p 65).
Without God, everything is nothingness. But God is the supreme nothingness! (Tears and Saints p74).
ÎÏεβοÏ
Member
An eternity of paradise and joy, like that described in the foolish concept of heaven, would be the worst torture any individual could ever suffer. It would rob them of everything that makes them human, and destroy all meaning in their existance.
I would love immortality, for certain; but an eternity of imperfection, of this hell of earth or elsewhere--a realistic eternity of both suffering and joy, where I would continue to learn infinitely, find love, be hurt, feel fear and hate, feel joy, feel anger, negative with the positive. Anything other than that would be meaningless, "boring" to the extreme.
I would love immortality, for certain; but an eternity of imperfection, of this hell of earth or elsewhere--a realistic eternity of both suffering and joy, where I would continue to learn infinitely, find love, be hurt, feel fear and hate, feel joy, feel anger, negative with the positive. Anything other than that would be meaningless, "boring" to the extreme.
Why do you reference, "this hell of earth?" Are you saying life here is "hellish" somehow? Just curious what you mean by this.
ÎÏεβοÏ
Member
Uhm, the current world/society is hell. Hell as in a place of suffering, but not undesirable by any means. Just used the word to contrast with the disgust that is the concept of "heaven."
tgorle
Apparently Music
Repeat after me three times:
I am God.
Congratulations. You're cured.
Now wake up and get on with your life.
After all, you only live once. Might as well be smart about it.
No entity created those stars you see in the sky 4.4 billion years ago, and then sat around twiddling his thumbs just so the light they emit could finally reach the Earth last night while you thumbed through a bible that was conceived, edited, censored, and assembled to support the agenda of a group of men over the past 2000 years who didn't have the knowledge to realize bloodletting isn't actually medicine... Tell the Chinese (whose chronological written history dates back over 6000 years) that the only valid knowledge on Earth was borne in Mesopotamia... I wonder what jokester hid those Marine Iguanas that evolved in the Galapogos Islands from Noah... not to mention the Kangaroos in Australia. Hard to find them kritters back when the rain started falling...
But, I digress...
Religion:
uke:
Mankind will get it right, soon, or we will drown in our own waste.
That is your future, one way or the other.
Have a nice day.
I am God.
Congratulations. You're cured.
Now wake up and get on with your life.
After all, you only live once. Might as well be smart about it.
No entity created those stars you see in the sky 4.4 billion years ago, and then sat around twiddling his thumbs just so the light they emit could finally reach the Earth last night while you thumbed through a bible that was conceived, edited, censored, and assembled to support the agenda of a group of men over the past 2000 years who didn't have the knowledge to realize bloodletting isn't actually medicine... Tell the Chinese (whose chronological written history dates back over 6000 years) that the only valid knowledge on Earth was borne in Mesopotamia... I wonder what jokester hid those Marine Iguanas that evolved in the Galapogos Islands from Noah... not to mention the Kangaroos in Australia. Hard to find them kritters back when the rain started falling...
But, I digress...
Religion:
uke: Mankind will get it right, soon, or we will drown in our own waste.
That is your future, one way or the other.
Have a nice day.
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