Audio Interfaces and ProTools or no?

Melodeath

Moonbow
Feb 6, 2004
3,045
2
38
Northern VA
I have had my Alesis io26 audio interface for a year or two now, and I've been using it with Sonar 7. However, I think my io26 is dying. A couple months ago, the right channel just completely stopped outputting sound. The meter wouldn't even go up, but it did for the left channel. I fixed this by reinstalling the firmware. I have no idea why this would have occurred.

Furthermore, as of two weeks ago, I have started to have an issue where, while listening to music in Winamp, the music will abruptly stop for one second, then resume where it left off after a little pop in the speakers. I have no clue what is causing this. It will happen at leats once every two minutes. Raising the "system latency compensation" in the io26 preferences seemed to help, but I was just playing Left 4 Dead on my PC and I got the audio dropping out problem again. What confuses me is that this problem started so suddenly (I didn't attach/install any new hardware or anything), and it wont go away. Now, you may argue I shouldn't expect an audio interface to perform perfectly for PC games, but I don't see why it shouldn't. Either way, the issue with the music playback in Winamp is unacceptable.

There's also driver issues with the io26. Half the time when I hit play or record in Sonar, the audio is completely garbled and crackling, and I have done tests and figured out it has nothing to do with the buffer setting in the io26 preferences. Furthermore, this crackling does not occur if you use the June 2007 drivers. Thus, the problem seems to be all the drivers since June of '07. Alesis has not updated the firmware or drivers for the io26 since March of 2008, and this wouldn't be an issue, except that clearly the unit still has issues.

Basically, I am fed up with this shit, so I think it's time to get a new audio interface. However, there's a new decision I need to make. I've been using ProTools a lot at college, so I've actually gotten fairly comfortable with it, and am now considering switching from Sonar to ProTools. There's certain editing features in ProTools that seem easier to me (perhaps just b/c I am ignorant of all of Sonar's features), but there are certain things about Sonar which I really like in comparison to the ProTools experience I've had. Thus, I have a few questions:
In Sonar, when you overdub on top of a track that already has an audio clip on it, you can hear the audio clip that's already there, which is awesome if you're trying to punch something in. In ProTools, it automatically records over the clip you already have there, and you can't hear that clip while you're recording. You have to make a new audio track and record onto that track if you want to hear the previous clip while tracking. Is there some way around this, to make ProTools more like Sonar?

Does ProTools have plugin delay compensation? I know Sonar does, but I am very confused as to whether ProTools does or not. My professors seem to put plugins on tracks, but essentially bypass them, in order to "enable delay compensation." For example, if they use the Trim plugin on a track to raise the volume, they'll put Trim on the other tracks, but leave the settings at default so it's not actually doing anything, but the track is still "delayed" by the same amount of samples since it is processed through the plugin. If this is how you get "delay compensation" in ProTools, it seems Sonar is far more advanced in this area.

If I got ProTools, it would have to be LE. I wish I could get HD, since it doesn't have track limits, etc. However, HD is far too expensive (I'm assuming here. You have to buy at least one of those 192s, and then a pci card with those 10 DSP chips on it, right?). Since I'd be getting LE, the 003+ is the only interface that really makes sense. Anything else would be a downgrade. I need at least 8 preamps, and more would be preferable. How good are the preamps in the 003+? Iirc, the 003+ has one ADAT In port, so I could attach 8 more preamps. That's cool, but still, I feel so limited only being able record 16 preamped inputs at once (ignoring the 2 SPDIF), let alone only 8 of those preamps being able to be my own choice, since the other 8 have to be the built-in 003+ preamps. That's another reason to go HD--it seems I'd have way more flexibility. But it's just too much money for a dude like myself.
On the subject of HD, do you think these native systems are going to go by the wayside? One of my professors seems to think so. He thinks the new 003+ is a huge step in terms of ProTools technology, as it is capable of what was once only possible with an HD2 system. Plus, as he says (and other computer-savvy friends have told me), PCI slots are being phased out in computers. Is ProTools HD going to die in the near future, or will native systems become obsolete?

What are your general thoughts on switching to ProTools? I like the idea of using the "industry standard," but I'm also fully aware that "industry standard" doesn't mean "best." While I have recorded a few bands for money (mostly for the fun of it, of course), I am certainly not at the point in my audio life where clients are coming to me with ProTools sessions they want me to work on, and thus me needing ProTools. So, switching to ProTools would be out of desire, not any sort of necessity.

Excuse my ignorance, but ProTools uses RTAS plugins, rather than VST. So I don't need to buy special plugins for ProTools, I can use at least most of the ones I already have?

I could just get an M-Box so I could run ProTools. Then I could record in Sonar, and edit in ProTools. However, this isn't so appealing to me. It seems needlessly contrived.

Can the 003+ preamps be used only with Protools? Could I use the 003+ as my audio interface with Sonar? If so, that might be the best choice, as I could choose whether to use Sonar or Protools whenever I felt like it. Would I be able to plugin my io26 through firewire as well, along with the 003+, and use those preamps too, or would the syncing be off?

If I don't switch to ProTools, I can get whatever audio interface. I have heard the RME interfaces are basically the top-of-the-line when it comes to audio interfaces, but I definitely want something with more than 4 preamps (the Fireface 800 only has 4 preamps). Any suggestions? I want at least 8 preamps, or some way to easily expand with ADAT.

I appreciate any input you can give me at all. Thanks a lot.
 
Im just quickly covering a few of your questions as its a very big post!!

I went from exclusively using Nuendo to now using PT 7.4 LE all the time (and HD at college) at first i was weary, but ive found that i really like it, it has sped my workflow up considerably.

My setup is is a dual core pc with a 002 rack. as far as latency, PT has a low lat monitor function (basically like the cuemix you'd get on a motu system) where it basically bypasses theaudio engine, giving you almost zero latency. i tend not to use plugins whilst tracking, however i can easily load up 9 tracks of drumagog, play and record and monitor with hardly any latency!!!

the delay compensation is just increasing or decreasing your buffer size.

as far as plug ins go, yeha le uses RTAS, HD uses rtas and TDM (specifically for the pci cards) you can always get a vast wrapper for those VST plugs you have that you just cant live without (in my case stuff like gclip)

PT HD is literally the same in terms of work flow. HD just offers the higher track count (Ins and outs), zero latency processing with plugins (and the capability of handling loads, and i mean oads of plugins) a few extra functions including better features regarding video than LE. erm of the top of me head thats all ud really need to know for it fr now.

the 003 rack.. the pres arent the best, but very useable, deffo an upgrade on the 002 pres. adat is straight forward like on most digital interfaces expands it for upto an extra 8 ins and outs (at 44.1), and they go up to 96k (not that youd ever really need that and not via adat).

You can use the 003 with other DAW applications.. no problems!
 
there's been 4-5 threads about this in the last week or 2,they answer alot of the questions you asked. Look for them and give them a read there's alot of food for thought in there.

The plugin delay compensation works in HD not in le or m powered- that, the i/o options and the track count are 3 of the reasons why people buy the hd systems instead of just souping up an LE system with toolkits.
 
Jeezo thats alot of questions!? but heck I'll give it a shot to go through them all:

As far as the question about overdubbing goes. You're saying that you want to hear the previous clip while recording a new one? Doesn't make alot of sense to me...
If you want to play through the previous take so that you know when to punch in then you need to go into the Track menu at the top of the screen and select "Auto Input Monitoring" (or press Alt+K) as at the moment it sounds like its set to "Input Only Monitoring" which will only monitor the input signal while a channel is set to record. This is to allow for practicing a certain section before recording it. "Auto Input Monitoring" will play back the previous clip until you punch in to record, at which point it will monitor the input signal.


Pro Tools LE and M Powered do not have plugin delay compensation, and while your lecturers idea of copying plugins and putting them in bypass works in most instances depending on the plug and its features there could be a difference in the amount of delay induced due to lookahead gates/limiters etc that might not necessarily be switched on by default.
Another way you can do PDC yourself is to add a Timeadjuster plugin on each track and ALT+CTRL+click on the vol at the bottom of each track until the delay value comes up, using timeadjuster to make sure that all the tracks have the same delay value.
Another (MUCH easier) option is to buy Mellowmuse's ATA plugin, which is only $50, and apparently works even better then the ADC in Protools HD.

To go HD you would need a HD core card and a 96i/o.

As far as the 003/003+ rack issue goes, I would say get a 003 rack and use the money you saved not buying the 4 extra Digi preamps (which are an improvement on the 002's, but probably not as good as an Octopre or similar) and get another rack of 8 preamps to go through the line in's. So with 8 through the ine in's, 8 through ADAT and 2 through SPDIF you have 18 inputs altogether.

The other option I'd be looking at personally is Pro Tools M Powered with a M Audio Profire 2626. Which allows 26 inputs and outputs (8 pre's with line ins that bypass the preamp, 16 ADAT ins and SPDIF in. 8 Line outs, 16 ADAT outs and SPDIF out) Pro Tools M Powered is limited to 18 inputs at a time, so if you wanted to use more than that for say tracking drums you can just run the Profire through another program and then export your files to Pro Tools for mixing/overdubbing.

Realistically I have to say that HD is looking like much less of an option as computers are getting more and more powerful (Octo-core MAC's!) so can run huge amounts of plugins without the need for dedicated process cards. But the main reason that people will still use HD is the high input/output count compared to LE/MP. Also in a professional environment reliability is a large factor. Get a decent HD rig and it will be rock solid as it doesnt rely on your computer for all the processing, so while I can see less and less HD systems being bought in the future, I think there will always be a market for it.

Switching to Protools is really down to personal preference. Most people seem to like the workflow for Protools but others prefer Logic/Cubase/Whatever. Just down to your own taste really. Though I will say that in a studio environment normally one of the first questions a potential client will ask is "Do you have Pro Tools?" Though in your position this probably isn't a huge deciding factor.

Yes Pro Tools uses RTAS plugins, so your VST plugs wont work unless you use a VST-RTAS wrapper.

You could record in sonar and edit in protools using an mbox, It just involves consolidating your regions in the session and then importing the audio files into a Protools session.

Yes you can use the 003 with any software, I'm not sure about using both firewire interfaces at the same time.

The RME is meant to be pretty good, remember before dismissing an interface because it only has 4 pre's to look at things like line in's/ADAT ports/SPDIF in's etc, as without looking at all that info you really don't know the capabilites of an interface. The FF800 can go up to 56 channels of in/out. You just need to buy the preamps to go with it.

Hope thats helped out a bit. Really I think you need to do some research yourself, how many inputs do you need? Whats your budget? How important is Pro Tools to you? Can you work with the limited input count of LE? Really you can ask others all you want but in the end its down to you and your workflow, your needs, and your budget.
Go do some research and no doubt you'll find something thats perfect for the way you want to work, theres plenty of options out there!
 
I appreciate these responses.

So the 003 has 8 mic/line inputs, 4 of which have preamps, and it has ADAT In
003+ has 8 mic pres and ADAT In. So they are both capable of the same amount of inputs?

Excuse my ignorance, is there a difference between ProTools M-Powered and LE?
 
Track count is different, far as I know plug in delay compesation is the same, you've a whole extra host of hardware open to you if you use m-powered.
 
however m powered isnt as good as the LE version, a couple of reasons is mainly down to the expandability, and especially when it come to video and post production. However for the most part you can count LE and M powered as being on the same level in terms of funcionality.

Yeah on both units you can have upto 16 simultaneous inputs (8 from adat on each)
 
I'm very undecided too...because I found 2 solution:

Protools LE + 003 + 8 pre + various toolkit (music toolkit 2 350€ (64tracks on PT8) and complete toolkit 1500€(128 tracks on PT8)) ---> from 3000€ to 3500+€

Protools HD + used hd core + used 96i/o + 8pre x 2 ---> from 3500€ to 4000€

I think at this point would be more convenient the second solution: HD system, no track limitation, 16 inputs (eventually upgradable)....

The first solution is interesting for the portability of the firewire interface
 
yeha i basically run the first setup you have written about. and mine is currently working absolutely fine (220 rack, motu 8pre, music toolkit (48 audio tracks)

id love the hd, for the zero latency operation, however it starts adding up when you want to expand either with more accel cards, or the interfaces, then the preamps on top of that!
 
I[ve been doign some research.

I could get the 003, and use 4 of my alesis io26 preamps and go line out into the 003 and get 8 preamps total, without havign to buy another preamp.
Then, I could get a Presonus FireStudio Tube and go ADAT out into the 003 or something if I needed more preamps

Or I could get an M-Audio Profire 2626, which has 8 preamps already, and is $700.

Any opinions on the 2626 versus the 003?
 
I'm thinking tha same thing... M-Audio 2626 vs Digi 002/003..... M-Audio probably is better than digi, mainly for more inputs and the 16 adat channels, but protools is not included in the m-audio card as the digi card...
So you pay less for the card but at the end you spend the same money for the "bundle"....
 
Yeah. My brother seems to think M-Audio is just lower quality digi stuff, but I don't know about that.

The M-Audio is also cool in that is has 16 ADAT channels, so you can still run 16 inputs without using the M-Audio preamps at all. If you want 16 ins with the Digi, you're going to have to use some of the digi preamps.

Where can you buy ProTools M-Powered? All I can find is prices for an update to version 8.

My main concern right now is stable drivers and expandability. I already have 8 preamps in my io26, but they are utterly useless since the unit doesn't have ADAT Out. So I definitely want something with ADAT IN so I can buy some good pres later on. And I need to have something that doesn't disconnect itself from my computer b/c of drivers. (Hopefully that's a driver issue and not Windows or my PC)
 
I recommend the 2626. There is a dealer on Ebay that has a 2626+PT MP package for $760, free shipping. PT 8 would be a free download after registration. I picked up this package a while back. I think it's a great deal. If you decide you don't want to use PT or you already know that you don't you can sell it and make back a buck fifty or more.

I think dealers are still waiting on boxed versions of M-Powered. I received the amnesty email on the 18th and have been using v8 since.
 
Yeah. My brother seems to think M-Audio is just lower quality digi stuff, but I don't know about that.

The M-Audio is also cool in that is has 16 ADAT channels, so you can still run 16 inputs without using the M-Audio preamps at all. If you want 16 ins with the Digi, you're going to have to use some of the digi preamps.

Where can you buy ProTools M-Powered? All I can find is prices for an update to version 8.

My main concern right now is stable drivers and expandability. I already have 8 preamps in my io26, but they are utterly useless since the unit doesn't have ADAT Out. So I definitely want something with ADAT IN so I can buy some good pres later on. And I need to have something that doesn't disconnect itself from my computer b/c of drivers. (Hopefully that's a driver issue and not Windows or my PC)

Hahahaha, Digidesign interfaces superior to something, tell me another one :lol: I would TOTALLY go for the 2626 over the 003 in a heartbeat, if nothing else cuz digidesign drivers SUCK ASS for WDM stuff (meaning you can't use their interfaces as your sound card for mp3 listening, youtube watching, etc., without tons of bugs and glitches - maybe they solved it on the 003, but I know it's that way on the 002 and MBOX2)
 
:lol:
Yikes, that's a major issue. I like to use my audio interface as my complete sound card (meaning using it for mp3s and Youtube)

Jesse, do you happen to know if that ProTools bundle comes with "Factory" or whatever the hell digidesign calls all those plugins?
 
:lol:
Yikes, that's a major issue. I like to use my audio interface as my complete sound card (meaning using it for mp3s and Youtube)

Jesse, do you happen to know if that ProTools bundle comes with "Factory" or whatever the hell digidesign calls all those plugins?

The Digi CoreAudio driver is still that way: it locks the hardware and you have to quit PT in order to use it for anything else.

No, it doesn't come with anything like the Digi Factory bundle. PT8 comes with a ton of new AIR FX plugins though, as well as the only plugins from the Factory bundle that I would even use: the D-Fi bundle and SansAmp PSA-1. The rest are outdated and not worth having in my opinion, especially with the release of PT8.
 
Wow, locks the hardware until you quit PT? That's horrible. Would it act that way with a different DAW as well do you think? I assume the 2626 is different?
I don't really know what's even in the Factory bundle, I just saw it was included with most 003 packages.

Are the headphone outs on the 2626 independent of the master volume knob? That's one good thing about the io26. My control room is also my recording room, so I have to turn down my monitors when recording. With the io26, I can turn down my monitors with the Main knob on the io26, but it doesn't affect headphone volume.
 
Damn! No one mentioned the VST-Wrapper was $100! :(

Oh well, I think I'm still going to get the Profire 2626. At this point, I can't understand why anyone would get a 003 instead, unless they were very keen on spending over $1k for the DV Toolkit in LE.

The Profire is more expandable than any of the Digis