Black Metal... why?

[JoeVice]

Ok, I just don't understand why people use this as a way of describing Darkthrone's music, as it's just one tiny element that bears no real significance.

--it bears real significance to those who perceive it that way.

. I think that everyone who's been through high school should know that, it's not exactly rocket science.

-- well, thanks for clarifying that you know it.

That is debatable. I certainly don't consider myself shallow, especially with regards to music. "Seeing something" in this context means noticing and appreciating something in music. Whether you appreciate something in this case has little to do with being shallow, rather your own subjective set of values which you appreciate in music (of course, a certain set of values could be considered shallow by a majority of people, but then you'd have to point out the reason why I am shallow in this context). I don't especially enjoy Darkthrone's music for a number of reasons, but certainly not because I'm shallow. I could say that you don't like Limp Bizkit because you're shallow, and "you just don't see it", but that doesn't make it true. *You are however correct that I am making perhaps too big a deal out of this, in the opposite direction of people like Armageddon's Child. However, when I made this previous post, I was quite bored and stoned, just like I am now.


--i was just kidding. *but that was the jest of it....of which i am equally guilty.


In both cases, we have naturally occuring phenomena used in music, to somehow improve the quality of this music, and fans who seemingly make a big deal out of this. Of course, one could say the doppler effect is something more difficult too achieve, and grander in scope, but still. I did use the word "almost".

--its hard to say "improve the quality of the music"....since it is impossible to listen to the music without these phenomena. people who make a big deal out of it, are into it.

What I was referring to as being cared about was the effect of this phenomenon on the quality of the music. What I cared about by posting was the importance some Darkthrone fans attach to this effect. The importance of a concept and the concept itself are 2 different things, as you well know. Anyhow, I don't really know why I even responded to this, but as I said, I'm bored.

--it does have an effect on the quality of the music. in fact, it is inseparable from the quality of the music. i love hearing folks discuss music in such great (pretentious? pointless?) depth. but, what bugs me, is when i don't "get" something because i can't wrap my mind around it. i know this already!!! shut up!!!

 

[derbeder]

go listen to anothor

 

[Opethian666]

Alright, it was a stupid point to argue about anyway. Just to clarify, I am a black metal fan, just not a Darkthrone fan.

 

[Manbient]

Don, we've been over this before where it was more than adequately explained (in your thread, in response to your post, as I'm sure you remember).

That's a terrible explanation. It explains grade 2 science, and pretends there's some second "hidden" effect that only smrt people would notice (OMGZZ ITS NOT AS LOUD WHAN IRTS FAR AWAY!!! NO WAI), and then in no way explains what use this actually has in the music, besides being a nifty parlor trick. I don't feel like Darkthrone is whizzing by me on a special flying stage back and forth when i listen to Transylvanian Hunger, and if i did, i would be going "what the fuck would they do something so stupid for?" What is the point of this "doppler effect"? Is there none? More than adequately explained. lol. Nothing was explained.

I stand firmly on my first post in this thread.

 

[Scourge of God]

And yet you seem terribly impressed with ambient, which often aims at precisely the same illusion of spacial dimensionality. The idea is not just to write a song, but to create an immersive sound environment - a musical world where listeners can vault beyond the mundane, at least for a while.

Bottom line: dismissing black metal on the basis of the wording of an album review may make you a big fish in the tiny intellectual pond that is the Opeth forum at UM, but it just makes you look like a dickless tool to anyone with a functioning brain.

 

[Justin S.]

That's a terrible explanation. It explains grade 2 science, and pretends there's some second "hidden" effect that only smrt people would notice (OMGZZ ITS NOT AS LOUD WHAN IRTS FAR AWAY!!! NO WAI), and then in no way explains what use this actually has in the music, besides being a nifty parlor trick. I don't feel like Darkthrone is whizzing by me on a special flying stage back and forth when i listen to Transylvanian Hunger, and if i did, i would be going "what the fuck would they do something so stupid for?" What is the point of this "doppler effect"? Is there none? More than adequately explained. lol. Nothing was explained.

I stand firmly on my first post in this thread.

Now you are simply being argumentative. You know very well that his concise explanation of the physical phenomena (doppler effect) was in order to better support his elaboration of it as metaphor within Darkthrone's music (a more vivid comparison). In the context of that thread, the post was excellent and explanatory (in fact, people requested it). It remains so in this thread, as people seem to have a hard time grasping the concepts of metaphor, symbolism, and description.

Secondly it is no "trick", as it is a description of the music as perceived by a thoughtful listener. No claims have been made on Darkthrone's awareness or intention/implementation (or lack of, which seems likely) of said "effect" (which is not literal).

As far as your questions of "the point" or "the use", I don't have much to say: Firstly, because these "questions" suppose intention, and secondly because I loath dishonest "interrogatives".

 

[derbeder]

kvanforth:
i look like a sad panda but i occasionally make good music.
thoughtful reviews make me want to kill myself. that's why i play suicidal black metul.

 

[affinityband]

Now you are simply being argumentative. You know very well that his concise explanation of the physical phenomena (doppler effect) was in order to better support his elaboration of it as metaphor within Darkthrone's music (a more vivid comparison). In the context of that thread, the post was excellent and explanatory (in fact, people requested it). It remains so in this thread, as people seem to have a hard time grasping the concepts of metaphor, symbolism, and description.

Secondly it is no "trick", as it is a description of the music as perceived by a thoughtful listener. No claims have been made on Darkthrone's awareness or intention/implementation (or lack of, which seems likely) of said "effect" (which is not literal).

As far as your questions of "the point" or "the use", I don't have much to say: Firstly, because these "questions" suppose intention, and secondly because I loath dishonest "interrogatives".

Are you jewish?

 

[hibernal_dream]

lol @ derbeder owning the thread

 

[RedinTheSky]

Now you are simply being argumentative.

When did this happen ? Really... someone wake me up when we're actually talking about music again.

 

[Manbient]

And yet you seem terribly impressed with ambient, which often aims at precisely the same illusion of spacial dimensionality. The idea is not just to write a song, but to create an immersive sound environment - a musical world where listeners can vault beyond the mundane, at least for a while.

Bottom line: dismissing black metal on the basis of the wording of an album review may make you a big fish in the tiny intellectual pond that is the Opeth forum at UM, but it just makes you look like a dickless tool to anyone with a functioning brain.

haha, come on. There's a difference between creating the illusion of a soundspace for the purpose of being "lost" in it, and a band simply changing volume and pitch. The second has so very little to do with imaging (where's the left-right, or front-back "motion"?), not to mention, even if the "trick" worked, seems completely pointless. Do you really think it's exciting to have the illusion of a band whizzing by you, back and forth while they play? Or is that probably just going to be distracting you from what they are playing?

PS: i like black metal, and i like darkthrone. And you suck at insults. Why would you discuss me anyway?

 

[Manbient]

As far as your questions of "the point" or "the use", I don't have much to say: Firstly, because these "questions" suppose intention, and secondly because I loath dishonest "interrogatives".

does this mean the description is meaningless fluff which actually has no musical, OR symbolic purpose? you said yourself art is not a buffet. If this "effect" was not intended, then what gives us this "right" to interpret it as such? And how am i being dishonest? It's not a difficult question, it's an honest question that i want an answer for. If there really is no answer, then why does anyone defend this notion? can't we all agree it's pretty fucking stupid and pretentious then?

 

[Justin S.]

does this mean the description is meaningless fluff which actually has no musical, OR symbolic purpose?

Not at all. "Purposiveness" is not the sole criterion of "meaning" (How would the lack of intention or realization among Darkthrone of Prozak's description render it "meaningless"?). Rather, I would argue that some of the most interesting things are in the "free play" that lie outside the artist's conscious, calculating intent, but are nonetheless present. The greats realize this, that they are not in total "control" of the work of art.

you said yourself art is not a buffet. If this "effect" was not intended, then what gives us this "right" to interpret it as such?

Again, purposiveness is a separate issue from something's presence. In the case of Darkthrone's album, the descriptive "doppler effect" is perfectly warranted and easily witnessed. Concerning "justification": like anything, it is a matter of perception. There is no "safe" protocol.

And how am i being dishonest? It's not a difficult question, it's an honest question that i want an answer for. If there really is no answer, then why does anyone defend this notion? can't we all agree it's pretty fucking stupid and pretentious then?

Your statements may have the grammatical form of interrogatives, but there is very little questioning. Take the last one above: "[If x]...can't we all agree it's pretty fucking stupid and pretentious then?" Clearly not, which is why we are debating this. What is your purpose here?

Finally, you have been given "answers". The fact that you don't care for them does not mean they haven't been provided.

 

[affinityband]

Oh my god justin s you are truly unbelievable. You have a god awful answer to everything when you just veer off into a stream of pseudo-intellect conversation that actually looses the point within each and every sentence. Good christ you must have been a nightmare as a child turning everything into a battle of unsung witt. if every single damn post you are going to put is pretty much an essay i suggest you just get banned because the latter actually couldnt give a flying ducky what you are writing except for the fact it is completely unnessecary. when all that could have been said is 'I thought it was a good point'.

edit: jd i blew a fuse.

 

[Seance]

no more black metal threads. they all turn into the garbage you see before you on this page

 

[Justin S.]

Oh my god justin s you are truly unbelievable. You have a god awful answer to everything when you just veer off into a stream of pseudo-intellect conversation that actually looses the point within each and every sentence. Good christ you must have been a nightmare as a child turning everything into a battle of unsung witt. if every single damn post you are going to put is pretty much an essay i suggest you just get banned because the latter actually couldnt give a flying ducky what you are writing except for the fact it is completely unnessecary. when all that could have been said is 'I thought it was a good point'.

edit: jd i blew a fuse.

If thinking is not to your liking, by all means, don't read my posts or respond to them.

 

[JoeVice]

if every single damn post you are going to put is pretty much an essay i suggest you just get banned because the latter actually couldnt give a flying ducky what you are writing except for the fact it is completely unnessecary.

evidently, you DO give a flying fuck. if you don't want to read his posts, don't respond. personally, i enjoy reading his posts. i learn something from them. until you have something productive to say, your posts are littering this thread.

 

[Braighs]

The music intensifies the emotions of a melancholically feeling being - our emotions: ETERNITY , TREMENDOUSNESS , CONFUSION , LONELINESS and after all DEATH! "... a world in which everything seems to be vulnerable and everything shines with moonlike darkbrightness and the beams of melancholy have got faces, the sad faces of horses..."

 

[JoeVice]

The symbol is not the (art)work, but the physical object or phenomena that signifies more than the mere object/phenomena (as symbol).

--so, metaphorically speaking, symbol is the metaphor?

The work of art is not an object. Part of the art-work is what is transmitted in this symbolic exchange, which is made possible first by the sensuous apprehension of the object/phenomena. The aesthetic (sensuous apprehension/response) is the vehicle for the symbolic transmission which is an important aspect of the work of art.

--the symbolic exchange is made possible by only the sensuous apprehension. the artist doesn't always have a concept of symbol. (for example: a pretty sunset) In this case, the work of art is only an object.

The symbolic and aesthetic are apprehended by integrated yet distinct faculties. The sensory manifold perceives the phenomena of the aesthetic. The "apparatus" of consciousness intuits/comprehends (instantiates) the symbolic exchange and the work of art in general. Not only is it possible to truncate the work of art, it is the standard mode. The appraisal of art is halted (truncated) at the aesthetic. The symbolic transmission is left ignored, let alone the existential work of art. This severance and reduction is displayed by your post when you state, "the aesthetic is the only means by which the artist and the audience can gauge."

--the aesthetic is the "feeling in the moment." further interperetation is of and is symbol. The aesthetic is entirely the perceiver's. the concept of symbol is second in the the perception-of-art's cosmological order of importance, as all interperetation of symbol is based on the senses. the senses provide the "feeling in the moment," which is what we call the aesthetic. further interperetation is, as you said, standard mode. its how we can ponder and discuss.QUOTE]

it is impossible to be oblivious to what you define as symbol.

 

[Scourge of God]

haha, come on. There's a difference between creating the illusion of a soundspace for the purpose of being "lost" in it, and a band simply changing volume and pitch.

"Changing volume and pitch" is what creates the illusion of soundspace - it's certainly the primary technique of ambient artists. I suppose you could play with where sounds emanate in the engineering phase, but that's a real gimmick, and one that pretty much relies on the end user's stereo equipment. It certainly wasn't something that Darkthrone would have been messing with, as 1993 long pre-dated the arrival of relatively affordable home surround sound systems.

The second has so very little to do with imaging (where's the left-right, or front-back "motion"?)

See above: no one had surround sound at home in 1993 when these songs were being written, so what would have been the point? No one could have made use of the effect even if it had been included.

not to mention, even if the "trick" worked, seems completely pointless.

How so? Transilvanian Hunger is as immersive and dreamlike an album as has ever been recorded. It works perfectly at achieving the dimensionality necessary to take the listener out of a room and into the midst of the music.

Do you really think it's exciting to have the illusion of a band whizzing by you, back and forth while they play?

I enjoy the sense of space created. The idea was always to create a ritual atmosphere in which the listener has a sense of participation, and it succeeds brilliantly.

Or is that probably just going to be distracting you from what they are playing?

It heightens awareness of what they are playing - more significantly, it heightens awareness of the inner spirit that animates the music. If you live in a world where music is just waves of sound vibrating bones in your inner ear, I truly pity you, because you're missing out on what makes art worth having.

And you suck at insults.

No one was insulting you, kid. I was just letting you know how you come across to people that aren't mouth-breathing retards. Think of it as a helpful hint.

Why would you discuss me anyway?

Because when someone repeatedly says dumb shit, they themselves become a part of the discussion. You're aware of how that works, right? Or have you not gotten to the social mechanics of conversation yet in your community college classes?