Black Metal

[VoldamaresGollum]

What does it matter if the "founders" of black metal have changed their views on what makes good black metal, all individuals evolve, its a part of our nature, if we don't evolve we stagnate. Black Metal will evolve whether you like it or not. And as for "becoming everything they hated", they are still against the same things they always were against. They just have taken a different approach to dealing with it. They didn't become what they hated they evolved just like every other band in existence. So what. Get over it. They're still plenty of old school BM bands around to quench your thirst. Black metal will always be. Adding new elements doesn't somehow change the style of music, it just adds more dimensions to it.

 

[paddok]

What does it matter if the "founders" of black metal have changed their views on what makes good black metal, all individuals evolve, its a part of our nature, if we don't evolve we stagnate. Black Metal will evolve whether you like it or not. And as for "becoming everything they hated", they are still against the same things they always were against. they just have taken a different approach to dealing with it. Euronymous was the only member in Mayhem who had a problem with keyboards (ya they're plenty of rumurs that Dead hated them too but none substantiated and he's gone now so who cares) and he wrote all the slogans, now he's dead. do you wonder why the new Mayhem doesn't sound like the old or have opinions like the old... They didn't become what they hated they evolved just like every other band in existence. So what. Get over it. They're still plenty of old school BM bands around to quench your thirst.

Good point. I assume this "lack of evolution" is why so many people claim black metal is a dying genre.

 

[Flaming Death]

i listen and buy albums if i like them. i dont care if its first, second, third, fourth black metal, death metal or any other music genre

 

[Life Sucks]

Some of the new black metal bands aren't pure black metal (like Dimmu Borgir or Old Man's Child). That doesn't mean they are worse than pure black metal bands like Darkthrone and Nargaroth. The genre is expanding, that's all. It's not changing or dying out, as there are still plenty of bands playing old school Darkthrone/Burzum style black metal.

 

[Henrik Main]

i dont understand why people love mayhem so much. not only are they unimportant, they are incredibly boring. i was told to get the "essential" BM album des mystiriis and i was totally unimpressed. its boring and simplistic. sorry, but 5456 or 2376 is boring when done over and over and over again like mayhem does.
~gR~

De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas was released at a very "good time", considering all the free promotion it got due to the Grishnack/Euronymous things going on. This record turned a lot of people into fans of extreme music. "A Blaze In The Northern Sky", the Emperor/Enslaved split and Burzum's debut CD never received such promotion, and were classics just in the underground. DMDS was the closest black metal got to a "mainstream" record at that time. De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas is a brilliant record. Simplistic, with "weird" vocals (I actually love Atilla's vocal performance) but also with killer riffs. The most important aspect is probably the atmosphere they managed to create with this record. Brilliant stuff.

Paddok mentioned the "waves" in black metal. The first wave of black metal mainly was from 1991 to 1994. Important records are Darkthrone's "A Blaze In The Northern Sky" and "Under A Funeral Moon", Emperor's "Wrath Of The Tyrant", Enslaved's split with Emperor ("Hordanes Land"), Satyricon's "Dark Medieval Times", Immortal's "Pure Holocaust" and Burzum's "Burzum" and "Aske". These records are the essence of the first wave of Norwegian black metal.

The second wave consisted of bands like Gehenna, Limbonic Art, Borknagar, Arcturus (their debut album) and Dimmu Borgir.

A lot of bands were started, a lot of these bands were boring rip-offs of the abovementioned bands. Symphonic black metal became more popular, and some would claim that the "raw" black metal was slowly dying out. I wouldn't agree with a statement like that. There are several raw black metal bands out there; Taake, 1349, Ragnarok and Tsjuder are a few examples. Instead of following the tried and tested "raw" black metal formula, several bands are creating music I'd call "post-black". There are lots of interesting bands doing this: Borknagar, Arcturus, Solefald. Black metal had to progress, you can't just continue doing what Darkthrone did in 1994.

I just listened to Graveworm's latest album. I was shocked when I heard a cover of the terrible REM song "Losing My Religion". THAT is moving away from black metal's ideals. A lot of bands are still carrying the black metal banner high, though. Black metal is not dead, although some bands are moving into a too mainstreamy direction.

 

[Yogota]

Just my 2 cents: Burzum was imo never THAT moving/needed/big/inspiring, Varg only gave Black Metal hatred by normal people and created some shitty gritty NaziBlackMetalAnnalis Morons.

 

[paddok]

De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas was released at a very "good time", considering all the free promotion it got due to the Grishnack/Euronymous things going on. This record turned a lot of people into fans of extreme music. "A Blaze In The Northern Sky", the Emperor/Enslaved split and Burzum's debut CD never received such promotion, and were classics just in the underground. DMDS was the closest black metal got to a "mainstream" record at that time. De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas is a brilliant record. Simplistic, with "weird" vocals (I actually love Atilla's vocal performance) but also with killer riffs. The most important aspect is probably the atmosphere they managed to create with this record. Brilliant stuff.

Paddok mentioned the "waves" in black metal. The first wave of black metal mainly was from 1991 to 1994. Important records are Darkthrone's "A Blaze In The Northern Sky" and "Under A Funeral Moon", Emperor's "Wrath Of The Tyrant", Enslaved's split with Emperor ("Hordanes Land"), Satyricon's "Dark Medieval Times", Immortal's "Pure Holocaust" and Burzum's "Burzum" and "Aske". These records are the essence of the first wave of Norwegian black metal.

The second wave consisted of bands like Gehenna, Limbonic Art, Borknagar, Arcturus (their debut album) and Dimmu Borgir.

A lot of bands were started, a lot of these bands were boring rip-offs of the abovementioned bands. Symphonic black metal became more popular, and some would claim that the "raw" black metal was slowly dying out. I wouldn't agree with a statement like that. There are several raw black metal bands out there; Taake, 1349, Ragnarok and Tsjuder are a few examples. Instead of following the tried and tested "raw" black metal formula, several bands are creating music I'd call "post-black". There are lots of interesting bands doing this: Borknagar, Arcturus, Solefald. Black metal had to progress, you can't just continue doing what Darkthrone did in 1994.

I just listened to Graveworm's latest album. I was shocked when I heard a cover of the terrible REM song "Losing My Religion". THAT is moving away from black metal's ideals. A lot of bands are still carrying the black metal banner high, though. Black metal is not dead, although some bands are moving into a too mainstreamy direction.

Good explination. However by second wave, I was refering to black metal in general. The first wave being bathory / hellhammer / venom etc. the second wave in general being the start of the norwegian movement.

Atleast this is how Fenriz speaks of it.

 

[Erik]

Paddok mentioned the "waves" in black metal. The first wave of black metal mainly was from 1991 to 1994. Important records are Darkthrone's "A Blaze In The Northern Sky" and "Under A Funeral Moon", Emperor's "Wrath Of The Tyrant", Enslaved's split with Emperor ("Hordanes Land"), Satyricon's "Dark Medieval Times", Immortal's "Pure Holocaust" and Burzum's "Burzum" and "Aske". These records are the essence of the first wave of Norwegian black metal.

No. The "first wave" includes Bathory, Hellhammer, Sodom and such. What you speak of is the "second wave," and not including DMDS in your list automatically makes you seem absolutely clueless. Granted, you might have omitted it because you discussed it separately above.

Euronymous was the only member in Mayhem who had a problem with keyboards (ya they're plenty of rumurs that Dead hated them too but none substantiated and he's gone now so who cares)

First, unless you pulled that out of your ass then I'd like to see proof that Euronymous "had a problem with keyboards." Then maybe you can explain why, then, he signed both Burzum and Enslaved to Deathlike Silence Prod. when both used keyboards on their albums on DSP.

But that's neither her nor there. If you think that when someone says that "black metal has become everything it hated" it means "some black metal bands now incorporate keyboards" or "some bm bands now use thrash riffs" or "some bm bands have jazz or classical influences" then you're WAY off. The POINT is that black metal has lost ideology, purity and direction. What defines if a band is black metal is not music.

They really weren't as MUSICALLY important to the second wave as Burzum, Immortal, Darkthrone or Emperor. Mayhem (infamous for releasing albums with 2 or 3 good songs, the rest being filler) is pretty bottom of the barrel in terms of creativity, especially in the years that said bands released albums.

What people tend to forget is that while "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" wasn't released until 1994 most of the songs, existing only as rehearsal or live recordings, were around before "A Blaze in the Northern Sky" or "Pure Holocaust" or just about any important Norwegian black metal record you'd care to name. The riffing style and general style of songwriting on those songs was very inventive and influential. Mayhem was one of the first bands to take black metal into a more ambient, atmospheric direction. Listen to "Funeral Fog" from Live in Leipzig -- Mayhem were doing this type of stuff in 1990 and people have the nerve to call them not musically important.

 

[Henrik Main]

No. The "first wave" includes Bathory, Hellhammer, Sodom and such. What you speak of is the "second wave," and not including DMDS in your list automatically makes you seem absolutely clueless. Granted, you might have omitted it because you discussed it separately above.

True, the reason I left out DMDS was because I discussed it earlier in my post. I forgot the groundbreaking "Live In Leipizig", though. My mistake.

I know that Bathory, Celtic Frost and Hellhammer were very influencial when it comes to the development of most (if not all!) Norwegian black metal bands, but musically they cannot be labelled as black metal (OK, perhaps early Bathory can), in my opinion. They sure had elements of black metal - but the whole image that most people associate with black metal were founded by the Norwegian black metal bands I mentioned earlier, at least that's what I always thought.

Edit: Thinking about it, though, Bathory did have "satanic" elements before the Norwegian bands.. Musically, though, the Norwegian bands created what's referred to as black metal today.

 

[Slayed Necros]

No. The "first wave" includes Bathory, Hellhammer, Sodom and such. What you speak of is the "second wave," and not including DMDS in your list automatically makes you seem absolutely clueless. Granted, you might have omitted it because you discussed it separately above.


First, unless you pulled that out of your ass then I'd like to see proof that Euronymous "had a problem with keyboards." Then maybe you can explain why, then, he signed both Burzum and Enslaved to Deathlike Silence Prod. when both used keyboards on their albums on DSP.

But that's neither her nor there. If you think that when someone says that "black metal has become everything it hated" it means "some black metal bands now incorporate keyboards" or "some bm bands now use thrash riffs" or "some bm bands have jazz or classical influences" then you're WAY off. The POINT is that black metal has lost ideology, purity and direction. What defines if a band is black metal is not music.


What people tend to forget is that while "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" wasn't released until 1994 most of the songs, existing only as rehearsal or live recordings, were around before "A Blaze in the Northern Sky" or "Pure Holocaust" or just about any important Norwegian black metal record you'd care to name. The riffing style and general style of songwriting on those songs was very inventive and influential. Mayhem was one of the first bands to take black metal into a more ambient, atmospheric direction. Listen to "Funeral Fog" from Live in Leipzig -- Mayhem were doing this type of stuff in 1990 and people have the nerve to call them not musically important.

Agreed. Finally someone who knows what they speak of.

 

[Erik]

It's quite universally accepted that the early bands were the so-called "first wave" and the Norwegian bands the second.

Bathory, Sodom and Hellhammer created the foundations of black metal musically but ideology, which is now the defining part of what modern black metal is, was pretty much non-existant in these early bands. Yes, they all sung about Satan but that was, as the bands have admitted later, more or less just imagery; a gimmick to seem extreme. The Norwegian bands were the first to have deep (inseparable!) ideology to go with the music. Which brings us to...

Musically, though, the Norwegian bands created what's referred to as black metal today.

Yes, but they were heavily influenced by Bathory, Sodom, Venom, Hellhammer and the like. Listen to early Burzum and compare to Hellhammer, the first Immortal LP and Bathory around "Under the Sign..." etc... I can't imagine that someone would not call early Bathory, early Sodom, early Hellhammer black metal, because what else would you call it? It is what all modern black metal derives from. It is black metal -- but it is sometimes important to emphasize that it is black metal belonging to the first wave, when black metal was simply music and not ideology.

 

[Gory Elephant]

True, the reason I left out DMDS was because I discussed it earlier in my post. I forgot the groundbreaking "Live In Leipizig", though. My mistake.

I know that Bathory, Celtic Frost and Hellhammer were very influencial when it comes to the development of most (if not all!) Norwegian black metal bands, but musically they cannot be labelled as black metal (OK, perhaps early Bathory can), in my opinion. They sure had elements of black metal - but the whole image that most people associate with black metal were founded by the Norwegian black metal bands I mentioned earlier, at least that's what I always thought.

Edit: Thinking about it, though, Bathory did have "satanic" elements before the Norwegian bands.. Musically, though, the Norwegian bands created what's referred to as black metal today.

I disagree with the last paragraph here. Satanic elements aside, as far as I am concerned the single, solitary release that created "what's referred to as black metal today" was Under the Sign of the Black Mark by Bathory. Now, there are plenty of other releases that influenced black metal, but that CD, in my opinion, literally DEFINED black metal.

Secondly, I also agree that the first wave of black metal came before 1991. Even if you leave out Hellhammer and Venom (two bands that are really black metal in name only. As a personal aside, I think Hellhammer is HORRIBLE) and the like, that is fine with me, as far as I am concerned Bathory's first three albums alone can act as the "first wave" of black metal, for sure. Add in Sodom and even Mayhem (because, as was already noted, Mayhem was putting out demos and such long before the 90's. Deathcrush was recorded in, what, 1987? Something like that? Or am I mistaken?) and you definitely have the sound and substance to say that the first wave of black metal came in the 80's.

A related question, what is the verdict on Possessed? I mean, we all know they SLAY, but is it black or death? Sounds more like early death, but the content definitely leans towards black metal. Any thoughts?

 

[Astral Poetry]

Please goodsir, im always open for education and increase in musical knowledge so let me know what im off with.

Wasnt mayhem the first to revive the black metal style and start the whole norwegian scene ?

Musically they probably arnt as creative as Burzum or Immortal, but they did a whole lot for the scene itself.

If anyone should be responsible for reviving the black metal style, it's Bathory. They were the semi-"bridge" between the first wave and second.

 

[Astral Poetry]

What people tend to forget is that while "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" wasn't released until 1994 most of the songs, existing only as rehearsal or live recordings, were around before "A Blaze in the Northern Sky" or "Pure Holocaust" or just about any important Norwegian black metal record you'd care to name. The riffing style and general style of songwriting on those songs was very inventive and influential. Mayhem was one of the first bands to take black metal into a more ambient, atmospheric direction. Listen to "Funeral Fog" from Live in Leipzig -- Mayhem were doing this type of stuff in 1990 and people have the nerve to call them not musically important.

I did seem to overlook this, but still, as I stated before, Mayhem is (in)famous for releasing an album of 2-3 great songs and alot of filler. Their only substantial material was a few songs off "De Mysteriis...", as "Deathcrush" wasn't what I'd like to call a good album.

 

[Erik]

I disagree with the last paragraph here. Satanic elements aside, as far as I am concerned the single, solitary release that created "what's referred to as black metal today" was Under the Sign of the Black Mark by Bathory. Now, there are plenty of other releases that influenced black metal, but that CD, in my opinion, literally DEFINED black metal.

I agree -- the first time I heard "Under the Sign...", having heard more modern black metal before it, I was very surprised by how modern it sounded and how obvious it is that more or less all modern black metal descends directly from that particular album (and to a lesser extent the previous two and next.)

Secondly, I also agree that the first wave of black metal came before 1991. Even if you leave out Hellhammer and Venom (two bands that are really black metal in name only. As a personal aside, I think Hellhammer is HORRIBLE) and the like, that is fine with me, as far as I am concerned Bathory's first three albums alone can act as the "first wave" of black metal, for sure. Add in Sodom and even Mayhem (because, as was already noted, Mayhem was putting out demos and such long before the 90's. Deathcrush was recorded in, what, 1987? Something like that? Or am I mistaken?) and you definitely have the sound and substance to say that the first wave of black metal came in the 80's.

I agree that Venom are black metal in name only, but I'd argue that Hellhammer (horrible or not, heh) are very much (first-wave) black metal in every way. Anyway. You're right about Mayhem -- the first demo "Pure Fucking Armageddon" even came in 1986 and is much more black metal-oriented than 1987's "Deathcrush" which basically has gore lyrics and more of a death metal sound to the music. I'd say that "Deathcrush" is death metal, but "Pure Fucking Armageddon" is certainly black.

A related question, what is the verdict on Possessed? I mean, we all know they SLAY, but is it black or death? Sounds more like early death, but the content definitely leans towards black metal. Any thoughts?

Hm. Most would say death, but... There are other grey-area bands like this -- are Deicide and Vital Remains black or death metal? Euronymous'd say that a band like Deicide would definitely be black metal only because they're Satanic.

 

[Gory Elephant]

If anyone should be responsible for reviving the black metal style, it's Bathory. They were the semi-"bridge" between the first wave and second.

This is an interesting viewpoint. If Bathory is a bridge between first and second wave, what would you consider the first wave of Black Metal to be?

 

[Erik]

I did seem to overlook this, but still, as I stated before, Mayhem is (in)famous for releasing an album of 2-3 great songs and alot of filler. Their only substantial material was a few songs off "De Mysteriis...", as "Deathcrush" wasn't what I'd like to call a good album.

"Deathcrush" wasn't even what I'd like to call an album at all. It is a demo tape, later re-released on vinyl and CD. (I like it for what it is, but that doesn't really matter)

Now, I (and many others) tend to think that "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" has very, very even quality throughout. Maybe "From the Dark Past" and "Cursed in Eternity" aren't quite as good as the others -- but almost. "Funeral Fog", "Freezing Moon", "Pagan Fears", "Life Eternal", "Buried By Time and Dust" are all equal in greatness and total masterpieces in my opinion. You're free to have your own opinion of course, but I wouldn't say that it's a universally accepted one.

"A Grand Declaration of War" is 99% filler, but I'm not even going to discuss that further, because that album was not made by the Mayhem we're discussing.

 

[Erik]

If anyone should be responsible for reviving the black metal style, it's Bathory. They were the semi-"bridge" between the first wave and second.

I see your point and to an extent agree, but revive? I don't think so. Firstly, Bathory, Sodom, Hellhammer and friends all came at pretty much the same time in the 80's, and some time passed before all the Norwegian bands revived the genre. BUT as I've touched upon earlier, the main difference between the first and second wave was not musical, but ideological. Bathory still belonged to the first wave, because there was no ideology in Bathory -- purely music and a superficial image. Therefore I'd say that Bathory were a part of the first wave, but musically they're definitely the closest thing to the second wave.

 

[Gory Elephant]

"Deathcrush" wasn't even what I'd like to call an album at all. It is a demo tape, later re-released on vinyl and CD. (I like it for what it is, but that doesn't really matter)

Now, I (and many others) tend to think that "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas" has very, very even quality throughout. Maybe "From the Dark Past" and "Cursed in Eternity" aren't quite as good as the others -- but almost. "Funeral Fog", "Freezing Moon", "Pagan Fears", "Life Eternal", "Buried By Time and Dust" are all equal in greatness and total masterpieces in my opinion. You're free to have your own opinion of course, but I wouldn't say that it's a universally accepted one.

"A Grand Declaration of War" is 99% filler, but I'm not even going to discuss that further, because that album was not made by the Mayhem we're discussing.

Yah, I TOTALLY don't understand the attraction to the Grand Declaration of War. Some folks absolutely love it. I think it is one of the most horrendously bad CD's I have ever heard. In my opinion, seeing GDoW on a "top ten Black Metal" list is as stupefying as seeing three Death CD's on a "top ten Death metal" list, and not one of them is called Leprosy or Scream Bloody Gore.

 

[Erik]

Haha. Yes, GDoW is quite pathetic. I downloaded it (one of two or three cases where I've actually downloaded an entire album -- now I know that I really wouldn't pay money for it) and really tried to listen to it with an open mind, to like it and to understand all the praise it had received. But alas, for each listen it only became clearer to me just how copious amounts of feces it actually sucked. It's horrible, horrible, horrible. Contrived novelty (ooh, three minutes of silence in the middle of the record -- how avant-garde) in the hope of matching old Mayhem's innovative qualities in the end just made the whole thing, as we'd say in Sweden, turn to pancakes.

And now their new album's imminent. More raw, back-to-basics, less experimentation, they say... Experimental or not, I have my doubts that it will be a quality album.