BM, DM, and religion
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[KOTNO]Narrot
Eats and spits corpses...
Bungle
Member
I grew up Catholic, I'm going to be married in a Catholic church, but I'm not overly religious. Some of the views are pretty pathetic, but if it's their bag, whatever. I listen to some pretty extreme music, and I never cared for lyrics, unless it's overly Nazi or something of that nature, even though I do have a Burzum album. I won't listen to Christian music because, well, it sucks.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
wouldn't then, it be against one of those "cultural taboos" and very aligned with what you say DM's main themes are, if a DM Christian band formed? it would be against the notion that DM is inherently anti-christian, and therefore against societal standard.Moonlapse said:
We all dont know Opeth's views on religion or anything, but do you think they are Pagan at all. I got that hint from all the nature lyrics and shit.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
if you're serious i need to check that out.Still Death said:
also: one doesn't have to be pagan to appreciate nature. though i'm sure they have a closer understanding of it
AlexGuinness
The Collector
Interesting thread.
I will listen to just about anything and have no problem with it. I take most of the "controversial" stuff to be very tongue in cheek and there to get a reaction. A lot of it is simply purile, but that appeals to a certain part of my sense of humour. I can laugh at most things. "Satanic Propoganda" by Diabolos Rising is no more shocking than "Eaten" by Bloodbath or "Unknown Tribe" by Babylon Sad. I am no more going to go out and look for Satan feasting on God's corpse, than I am become a canniballistic donor or a paedophile serial killer. I think some people take these things too seriously. Kids have always wanted to shock their parents and they always will. It doesn't mean that these bands a true to their image... especially if they are making money out of it. I have rarely been bothered to sit down and read lyrics in a booklet or try and decipher them if they are unclear. Lyrics are sometimes completely irrelevent to me, sometimes the vocals simply take on the role of another instrument. Sometimes they are everything. That works for me too.
If the religious or sometimes political theme is higher in profile than the music, then something is generally wrong and I tend to avoid it. Some of the things that happened in Norway around the "true scene" just prove that there are mentally ill people in most countries as far as I am concerned.
One of the main reasons that I hold Opeth in higher regard (ignoring the obvious recorded output) is the lack of image. They have got where they are now of musical merit alone. That and Mikael shyly saying, "Hi.................. we are Opeth, from erm, Sweden.............. erm............. this one is" followed by the best death metal voice on the planet! It is simply fucking fantastic. Almost adds a greater contrast. I am sure that he is genuinely the great bloke he appears to be. Never had the privlege of meeting him though.
I have some very Christian life rules that I live by and I am generally considered to be a good person. I have been called Atheist, Agnostic and Satanic. I reject them all. I am completely in awe of nature and the power of it. I cannot explain life or nature, but I see no reason that any one spiritual explanation has any more validity than any other. I reject all those as well.
As far as religion is concerned, I consider myself to be Irreligious. By that, I simply mean that I disagree with ORGANISED religion. I think it causes more pain, suffering, hatred, death and conflict than anything else I can call to mind. It is a global disease. Perhaps worse than that, it is a watertight excuse for some truly unpleasant people to do exactly what they want... all in the name of religion. We exist in an era that criticising someone's religious beliefs or motivations is considered more wrong than what has been done.
As for the US election apparently being won on something to do with religion. You deserve all you get... even if it matters to you that much, the one group of people you can guarantee that lie are politicians.
At 31 years old, I am too young to remember a time when my Country wasn't under constant threat from some politico-religious based conflict. These days it is less about the Irish divide (seems to ultimately boil down to Protestants and Catholics disagreeing about the same God?) and more to do with the Christian West being despised by some other religious faction. It is a very real threat here too, we have one of the major Miliatary bases in the country and house many of the Paratroopers.
I can see that many people get comfort, direction of whatever from religion on a personal level, but as soon as it becomes an organised thing it seems to all go wrong.
Growing in England, I have been exposed to the Christian ideals all my life. I have asked questions and tried to understand, I am genuinely interested. All my life, I have been met with no answers and criticised for being controversial or something similar. One thing I read many years ago seemed to make more sense to me than anything considered a wholesome opinion... that is that people have always needed some form of higher accountability and responsibility to give meaning to their own existance. It is apparently somehow easier to have blind faith in some deity or book based on a 600 year game of Chinese Whispers than it is to accept responsibility for your own destiny. People always look to the skies for this higher force. In years past it was God, in modern times the Gods look more like UFOs. I think there is something in that.
Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of the Church. Anything that is holier than though, but will cover up the exploitation of women, priests buggering choirboys and all other manner of ills to protect its holier than though pedestal is intrinsically wrong. Easier to be swept under the carpet though for most people.
This brings to mind lyrics from a few bands:
"Questions are not blasphemy" (Manic Street Preachers).
"I still believe in God, but God no longer believes in me" (The Mission) and perhaps my favourite...
"I will bow to the Earth, bow to the Sea;
Bow to the love between you and me;
Bow to the Sun, bow to the Land;
But never to a God made in the image of Man" (New Model Army)
Obviously there are many more, but I thought that many of you may not have been exposed to these.
Just for the record, my opinions are not meant to offend anyone but I know they sometimes do. I respect most peoples' choices and beliefs in religion, unless they feel the need to covert (which unfortunately is a lot of people, I realise that these people give many other very good people a bad name).
I will listen to just about anything and have no problem with it. I take most of the "controversial" stuff to be very tongue in cheek and there to get a reaction. A lot of it is simply purile, but that appeals to a certain part of my sense of humour. I can laugh at most things. "Satanic Propoganda" by Diabolos Rising is no more shocking than "Eaten" by Bloodbath or "Unknown Tribe" by Babylon Sad. I am no more going to go out and look for Satan feasting on God's corpse, than I am become a canniballistic donor or a paedophile serial killer. I think some people take these things too seriously. Kids have always wanted to shock their parents and they always will. It doesn't mean that these bands a true to their image... especially if they are making money out of it. I have rarely been bothered to sit down and read lyrics in a booklet or try and decipher them if they are unclear. Lyrics are sometimes completely irrelevent to me, sometimes the vocals simply take on the role of another instrument. Sometimes they are everything. That works for me too.
If the religious or sometimes political theme is higher in profile than the music, then something is generally wrong and I tend to avoid it. Some of the things that happened in Norway around the "true scene" just prove that there are mentally ill people in most countries as far as I am concerned.
One of the main reasons that I hold Opeth in higher regard (ignoring the obvious recorded output) is the lack of image. They have got where they are now of musical merit alone. That and Mikael shyly saying, "Hi.................. we are Opeth, from erm, Sweden.............. erm............. this one is" followed by the best death metal voice on the planet! It is simply fucking fantastic. Almost adds a greater contrast. I am sure that he is genuinely the great bloke he appears to be. Never had the privlege of meeting him though.
I have some very Christian life rules that I live by and I am generally considered to be a good person. I have been called Atheist, Agnostic and Satanic. I reject them all. I am completely in awe of nature and the power of it. I cannot explain life or nature, but I see no reason that any one spiritual explanation has any more validity than any other. I reject all those as well.
As far as religion is concerned, I consider myself to be Irreligious. By that, I simply mean that I disagree with ORGANISED religion. I think it causes more pain, suffering, hatred, death and conflict than anything else I can call to mind. It is a global disease. Perhaps worse than that, it is a watertight excuse for some truly unpleasant people to do exactly what they want... all in the name of religion. We exist in an era that criticising someone's religious beliefs or motivations is considered more wrong than what has been done.
As for the US election apparently being won on something to do with religion. You deserve all you get... even if it matters to you that much, the one group of people you can guarantee that lie are politicians.
At 31 years old, I am too young to remember a time when my Country wasn't under constant threat from some politico-religious based conflict. These days it is less about the Irish divide (seems to ultimately boil down to Protestants and Catholics disagreeing about the same God?) and more to do with the Christian West being despised by some other religious faction. It is a very real threat here too, we have one of the major Miliatary bases in the country and house many of the Paratroopers.
I can see that many people get comfort, direction of whatever from religion on a personal level, but as soon as it becomes an organised thing it seems to all go wrong.
Growing in England, I have been exposed to the Christian ideals all my life. I have asked questions and tried to understand, I am genuinely interested. All my life, I have been met with no answers and criticised for being controversial or something similar. One thing I read many years ago seemed to make more sense to me than anything considered a wholesome opinion... that is that people have always needed some form of higher accountability and responsibility to give meaning to their own existance. It is apparently somehow easier to have blind faith in some deity or book based on a 600 year game of Chinese Whispers than it is to accept responsibility for your own destiny. People always look to the skies for this higher force. In years past it was God, in modern times the Gods look more like UFOs. I think there is something in that.
Don't even get me started on the hypocrisy of the Church. Anything that is holier than though, but will cover up the exploitation of women, priests buggering choirboys and all other manner of ills to protect its holier than though pedestal is intrinsically wrong. Easier to be swept under the carpet though for most people.
This brings to mind lyrics from a few bands:
"Questions are not blasphemy" (Manic Street Preachers).
"I still believe in God, but God no longer believes in me" (The Mission) and perhaps my favourite...
"I will bow to the Earth, bow to the Sea;
Bow to the love between you and me;
Bow to the Sun, bow to the Land;
But never to a God made in the image of Man" (New Model Army)
Obviously there are many more, but I thought that many of you may not have been exposed to these.
Just for the record, my opinions are not meant to offend anyone but I know they sometimes do. I respect most peoples' choices and beliefs in religion, unless they feel the need to covert (which unfortunately is a lot of people, I realise that these people give many other very good people a bad name).
Kenneth R.
Cináed
interesting views. some of my favorite lyrics concerning religion come from bands criticizing it.
Metalloid
Dismembered
AlexGuinness said:
I think this is my biggest problem with religion. I certainly respect people's views but spirituality is supposed to be a PERSONAL matter, and I can't stand it when it becomes a social outlet.
I realize there many Christians that are very good people and are respectful of others' views, but there seems to be some sort of world domination principle in Christianity in particular. I know you may laugh, because that seems pretty ridiculous, but that is the unfortunate reality. Some Christians go on missions, or "Crusades" to try to convert people to Christianity. They invariably go to areas where the people are living in complete destitution, so when the supposed all-knowing westerner comes into the country and offers help, it is in the name of religion, rather than just one person to another-- and so these poor people who are desperate for better living conditions are filled with emotion and accept the religion on an irrational level.
I just find it unfair that these religious people target these types of people to gain one more member of their church.
There are approximately 2 billion Christians in the world, at one point that was approximately 33 percent of the entire world population. So I truly think there is a world domination mentality for many Christians.
To roughly quote Larry David in the show Curb Your Enthusiasm, "I don't get these Christian people, they want to shove Christianity on everyone. Just because I like lobster doesn't mean I am going to go around saying, 'here, have some lobster, it's great, try it' "
I would have to agree. I still don't know 95% of Opeth's lyrics. And I don't really need to know. Unless there's more things about Frober being said.Trey Parker said:
the_drip
Martriden K
I was raised as a Roman Catholic.
I like emperor.
I like Mayhem
I like Opeth
I don't like DC Talk. Not becuase of the message they convey..but because their music sucks complete ass.
I like emperor.
I like Mayhem
I like Opeth
I don't like DC Talk. Not becuase of the message they convey..but because their music sucks complete ass.
AlexGuinness
The Collector
Apprentice's Master said:
I must admit that I am pretty much the same.
The reason that I tend not to get involved in the posts about which song I prefer, is that I would have to dig out the album to work out which one is which. It is obviously easy with tracks like Demon of the Fall, Serenity Painted Death, To Bid You Farewell, or whatever as the title is obviously prominent in the lyrics. I could not tell you anything about When, Moonlapse Vertigo or some of the others. If it were playing I would know the track inside out, but have to check the sleeve to work out what it is called.
I usually chuck a CD on and pay little attention to the track numbers if I am at home...
I don't understand how some people can simply disregard lyrics. They're such a big part of a song and (IMO) can make or break it.
I like Type O Negative (no flamez plz!). I think they can make some really beautiful music but their "funny" lyrics can make me cringe. They'd be a much better band if they didn't think they were at all funny - because they're not.
About the religious thing - I think it just depends on how sensetive you are.
I like Type O Negative (no flamez plz!). I think they can make some really beautiful music but their "funny" lyrics can make me cringe. They'd be a much better band if they didn't think they were at all funny - because they're not.
About the religious thing - I think it just depends on how sensetive you are.
^ I know it's not really fair that I ignore the lyrics. But the death growls makes it kinda hard to understand. But the main reason is that the music is so good, I don't waste my energy in reading the lyrics. I just pretend every song is an instrumental with some voices thrown here and there.
I am german and I understand every word Mikael growls. And he is a very gifted lyricist so simply ignoring them is really mean indeed.
Kenneth R.
Cináed
DC Talk had a few good songs 
for christian music, generally i'd say my favorite would have to go to Matt Smith/Theocracy.
about what Metalloid said, yeah, i agree with that. it bothers me when christians use incentives and situation to push religion on others. if they don't seek it out, then how are you going to show them genuine belief? i don't believe in pushing it on people. if they ask, i will tell them all i know about the subject. but only if they ask. you can't make people genuinely believe anything, they have to come to it on their own choice.
for christian music, generally i'd say my favorite would have to go to Matt Smith/Theocracy.
about what Metalloid said, yeah, i agree with that. it bothers me when christians use incentives and situation to push religion on others. if they don't seek it out, then how are you going to show them genuine belief? i don't believe in pushing it on people. if they ask, i will tell them all i know about the subject. but only if they ask. you can't make people genuinely believe anything, they have to come to it on their own choice.
Ermz
¯\(°_o)/¯
Silent Song said:
Normally when you bring rhetoric into a decent conversation, things tend to plummet from there. Death metal in general either just doesn't take itself seriously, or tries to preach a personal/spiritual ideal. Satanism for those with more than one braincell is usually figurative for freedom, or indepedance. To the best of my knowledge, Christian DM tries to preach an organized system through its lyrics. This opposes the crux of death metal... actually, the crux of most metal. The two should never have met and it's only an attempt by new-age christians to mediate with an ever-wavering new generation of people who delve into avenues such as extreme metal etc.
It's kind of like the saying 'if you can't beat em, join em' except they're only half joining em, but still trying to beat em. No matter how much rhetoric you try to wrap around it, it still doesn't make any sense to me.
About the lyrics thing. Lyrics are literature, vocal harmony is music. You don't need to read the lyrics to 'get' the music. I've never been a big lyricist, nor have lyrics ever struck me as very important in music. Sure its nice sometimes when you get a concept album such as Still Life, but you can still enjoy the music without even knowing its a concept.
It really comes down to how entwined the two are, or how significant the lyrics are. In most metal this comes down to about zilch, so I don't necessarily care.
Arnold Layne
Member
Kenneth R.
Cináed
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