chat, feelings, and random discussion thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
@kov: i will try to summarize for you and everyone interested. This is probably going to sound difficult for those who live in a common law system, but I will try to make it as plain as possible.

current de facto possibilities for couples in italy:

1. civil marriage;
2. religious marriage;
3. cohabitation.

If you choose (1), the Mayor of your city performs a civil ceremony and you enter into a legally binding agreement with your spouse. You acquire rights and you also acquire obligations.

If you choose (2), a priest performs a religious ceremony and, following an extant accord between the Vatican and the Italian state, you are also automatically married from the civil standpoint, i.e. you enter into the legally binding agreement of (1) without need for a separate ceremony (up to 1984 couples had to marry twice, because the religious rites were not valid for the State).

If you choose (3), you just live with your partner and none is the wiser. You do not have rights and obligations with respect to your partner.

Parents always have the same obligations towards their children independent of whether they are married or not. However, in the case of (1) and (2) there are detailed regulations governing child support payments should there be a split; in 90% of the cases, the mother keeps the kid and the father pays an amount of money to the mother. In case (3), it is slightly more complicated, but I will come back to it later.

Marriage, whether civil or religious, is only between a man and a woman.

Divorce is permitted, and there are two possibilities. If it is ordinary, i.e. two people decide to split because they just don't like each other anymore, the law requires three years of legal separation before the marriage is dissolved (which means that you can't remarry before three years, basically). If it follows episodes of physical or psychological violence against either spouse or children, episodes of drug or alcohol addiction, or other such circumstances then it's faster, although I don't remember if it takes 6 months before a new marriage or 1 year.

The campaign for civil unions that culminated in yesterday's draft law has two groups of proponents:

- heterosexuals who do not want to enter marriage but still want a set of rights as a couple;
- homosexuals who want to publicize (in the legal sense) their partnership and hence have a set of rights as a couple that they are not able to have otherwise. I will come back later to the point of civil unions, regardless of the partners' gender, versus gay marriage.

Proponents of civil unions argue that people who live together and do not want to or cannot marry (for example, because they are gay, or because one of them is waiting for a divorce) are denied some basic rights.

For example, only a legal spouse can visit her partner in hospital besides regular visiting hours (ie sleep at his bedside in case of serious illnesses, etc); of course this is Italy, so no doctor is going to check whether you really are the wife or a cohabiting partner, but it is theoretically possible for him to do so and kick you out if you are not the wife.

There is a whole lot of provisions about inheritance that only apply to the legal spouse: let's say that I have a son with my cohabiting partner, and at some point he (partner, not son) dies in a car crash, without leaving a testament. Our son gets everything and I get nothing. If we don't have kids, my partner's brothers and parents get everything, and I get nothing. If there is a testament and I am indicated as his heir, his direct family still gets a fixed share of the inheritance, and I get the rest.
On the other hand, if we are married, if there is a son then I get 50% and the son gets 50%, if there is no son I get everything. Moreover, wives, husbands, siblings and parents pay a reduced tax on inheritance; cohabiting partners are in the same category as friends and all other people to whom the deceased is not related by blood, and the tax rate is higher.

Real estate leases: I die, my husband automatically becomes the new tenant of our house. My cohabiting partner has to ask and can be refused by the landlord (again, as if evictions didn't take on average five years).

Also, in this country most workers still have a public pension, although we are slowly switching to a private system. So people pay contributions to a pension fund throughout their working life and then they get the money in instalments when they retire. If two pensioners are married and one dies, the other receives a share of his spouse's pension in addition to his own, until the moment of his death (seriously. and we wonder about high debt).

There are also other points, but these will suffice for the time being.

Let us switch to the side of obligations. The main difference between marriage and civil unions, as far as I understand, is that married partners are theoretically obliged to live together, and if one runs away the other can sue her. In the case of civil unions, there would be no cohabitation duty, while some other obligations (i.e. financial assistance in time of need) would be reiterated.

Finally, and importantly, entering a civil union would only require a communication in writing to the municipality, and splitting would only require a communication in writing to the municipality, too.

Basically, a civil union (or DiCo, according to the new catchword on the national media) is a light form of marriage, and this is exactly why the debate was so furious.

Cardinal Ruini, and the whole Italian Episcopal Conference (the association of local Bishops), argued that the whole side concerning rights could be resolved with mere modifications to run-of-the-mill laws. For example (note that these prospective solutions are mine and not Ruini's, he never went into details as far as I understand): just allow everyone to name their heir irrespective of blood ties, provided that children must come first anyway; allow everyone to freely pick who can visit them in hospital; and get rid of the damn double pensions already, doing economy a favor anyway. These are solutions that reflect my own inclination for policies that privilege complete freedom of choice over all the rest, but I am sure that the Bishops thought of something where solidarity features larger.

The reason why the Church hates the draft law: rather than just giving reasonable rights to people, it creates a competitive form of legal union which is easier to dissolve and has fewer obligations than marriage. So people will be inclined to take the easy path, the institution of family will be undermined, and society will become worse.

My opinion: hard to say, really. Several sides to it.
The Cardinal is right - most problems can be solved through modifications to civil law. But the Church knows how to buy time, and I am sure that the preference in favor of blood ties rather than ties of affection (say, my money goes to my brother, not my boyfriend) embedded in current legislation is seen favorably by at least a part of the Bishops. I do not think that the actual changes in civil law proposed by centrists and the Vatican, i.e. the only ones that would survive a debate if the draft law was repealed, would overthrow the principle of biological family uber alles. Eventhough I happen to get along fine with mine, I loathe the idea (one of the few grounds on which I am pretty ideological): I would fight tooth and nail to give choice the edge over circumstance anytime... including the case of civil unions, if it wasn't paradoxical. The paradox comes into play because a heterosexual couple that decides to dodge marriage for a form that basically allows easier exit is not privileging choice over circumstance; it is watering choice down and conceptually switching circumstances that at least are hard fact, such as 'i was born to x and y', with circumstances that are clouds of smoke, such as 'you never know what happens in life'.
Another order of problems exists, however. Even if I safely come to the conclusion that entering DiCo rather than marriage is, as my friend Marco aptly says, "just a refined form of cretinism"... well, who am I to bar other people from being cretins? Why should the State not allow them the opportunity, if they want to? The Church says: because it undermines the family as an institution and it weakens the fabric of society. I am not sure.

This is terribly difficult. The countries with higher fertility in Europe, i.e. the Nordic countries, also have the highest share of births out of wedlock, and the lowest share of married couples over all couples. They all have very liberal civil union legislations. Society didn't disintegrate because of them. Conversely, our own society is imploding, and there are very few children: according to at least one leading demographer, one of the reasons why is exactly that we procreate only after marriage, but we only marry after two or three years of trial cohabitation, and we only start cohabiting after getting a job, and we only get a job after finishing uni at 25... so maybe the opportunity of entering civil unions could help strengthen, not weaken, the fabric of society.
However, however, however... no, this is not a winning argument. I do not know much about Scandinavian cultures, but from what I read one of their strongest points is that they place a lot of stock in responsibility. I do not know why a Dane would want to cohabit rather than marry (although, come to think of it, I can ask), but I do know for sure that Italians want to cohabit rather than marry because they do not want to feel tied to someone in perpetuity. The DiCo has the nicest drop-out option ever and it's cool to know that there is a special, socially recognized form of 'family' for those who do not want, well, to subject themselves to the conformity implied in being a run-of-the-mill 'family'. I don't need a piece of paper to remind me that I love you, but hey, let me have one to tell me that I can have your flat if you die tonight.
Incidentally, this doesn't solve the problem - why should I have the right to decide whether society is better off or worse off with civil unions? I know that democracy entails the fact that my own opinion is lumped with everyone else's and then a majority is counted, but I just don't feel comfortable with expressing strong opinions on these matters.

In a nutshell: probably, it's okay to have the DiCo law if people, as represented by a majority in Parliament, want it. However, I do not think I will enter a civil union if I can help it. It's more or less the same position I have on abortion, eventhough of course abortion is way more scary than civil unions and there are four million strong reasons to be in favor of a ban. I would not really repel the law that permits abortion, but I will not get one if I can help it.

As for gays, I'll come back to it tomorrow or on Sunday, because it's 2am and I suddenly realize that I should be asleep. :cool:
 
If you've read this far, thank you.

If you want the short version, here it is:

go fuck yourself.
When you step on a cat's tail, it whines. Or so we say.

i do not see how it is silly in Italy but not in other countries where it has been recently debated, for example France, or the United States.
Aye, this is interesting, but the reason for it eludes me. Might be what Rahvin said, though I'm not sure... I'd have to think about it.

5 am atm, so I'll probably read your bitching more thoroughly later.
 
It´s good to see that hyena isn´t oversensitive about her country at all.
:lol:

Well, his comment was positively racist. Everyone would be up in arms and rightly so if someone said "all black people are lazy" or "all jews are greedy" - as far as i know, generalizations based on someone's race or nationality are wrong. That's exactly why some people reacted to the generalization implied by one of Taliesin's posts, i.e. "all americans are stupid" (incidentally, i know he did not mean to offend the whole population, but it probably came out wrong). Why should someone be entitled to say that Italians are silly and should not be taken seriously just on account of their nationality? You can make fun of me all you want and decree that I am "bitching" all you want, but I will just not buy into racist statements.

I was not "defending my country" on grounds of perceived superiority (that would be equally racist and I do not remotely think that Italians are better than everyone else, except when it comes to producing some types of wine). I was pointing out how the random dishing out of insults based on geography is just unacceptable, because you can find flaws in any population, and anyway you have to look at individuals, not "races" and "nations". The only nation one should worry about is the one they live in (and the EU or similar aggregations), and mainly insofar they can contribute to the public debate and/or improve laws and customs.

Don't call me white

The connotations wearing my nerves thin
Could it be semantics generating the mess we're in?
I understand that language breeds stereotype
But what's the explanation for the malice, for the spite?

Don't call me white

I wasn't brought here, I was born
Circumcised, categorized, allegiance sworn
Does this mean I have to take such shit
For being fair skinned?
I ain't a part of no conspiracy, I'm just your average Joe

Don't call me white

Represents everything I hate
The soap shoved in your mouth to cleanse the mind
A vast majority of sheep
A buttoned collar, starched and bleached
Constricting veins, the blood flow to the brain slows
They're so fuckin' ordinary white
Don't call me white

We're better off this way
Say what you're gonna say
So go ahead and label me
An asshole 'cause I can
Accept responsibility for what I've done
But not for who I am
Don't call me white
 
I fail to see why civil unions would weaken the "fabric of society". I mean, there are quite a few couples who dont get married (Dont ask me why, but one of my colleagues back during civil service had been living with his GF for 25 years and didnt plan on getting married).
I dont see how a civil union would make everyone shy away from marriage and run towards "the easy thing". Why would they? Because finally there's a way to be officially together without getting married? I dont see where that makes sense.

Im all for giving more rights to gay people, too. They're together anyway, we may as well give them their rights and accept the place they chose for themselves inside society. IMO, people against gay marriage are caught up in the illusion that as long as they oppose gay marriage, there's a chance this "nightmare" may go away, as if the gays would give up being gay if you only oppose them long enough.
 
Yes, thinking that teh gay will just go away if people cannot be officially together is just stupid.

Where imitation effects are concerned, the issue is unfortunately quite faceted. Normally, people do not become gay because their friends are gay, and the idea sponsored by the Church that gayness could spread like a virus if it was paraded in public just sounds illogical.

However, having acquired to my dismay a lot of experience on the subject over the course of a relationship with a bisexual man, I have come to the conclusion that a sizable minority of young people can be attracted by the thought of giving a go to homosexual relationships, especially in some social environments. For example, I was amazed at how nearly everyone in the expat community centered around the European Commission in Brussels candidly admitted that they occasionally had gay sex, eventhough they considered themselves mainly heterosexual.

Now, this is dangerous, because it is not compatible, as far as I see, with stable relationships of both the heterosexual and the homosexual variety. It just adds another dimension to the age-old problem of infidelity, and a slippery one at that. At the risk of sounding like an archconservative, I'm all in favor of social control in these cases: maybe if homosexuality were regarded as less "cool" people who are not really gay (ie they are not really attracted exclusively to and don't really want to share their life with a person of the same sex) would not venture into the murky waters of casual gay sex, and people who are really gay would stick to their same-sex partner without venturing into casual heterosexual sex. This would help both heterosexuals and gays who are committed to meaningful relationships.

After about seven years of pondering over this problem, I am pretty convinced that there is no way to allow for the exercise of a certain amount of natural bisexuality without inviting disaster (proviso: if a couple is definitely sure that they can handle infidelity of any variety, and they really want to practice the "open couple" ideal, they're welcome to do so. but i have never once seen a case where this was done honestly on both parts, no matter how hard i tried to make allowances and excuses).

This said, gay marriage: here in Italy everyone balks at the mere mention, including a share of gay activists. We do not have people like Andrew Sullivan here - most vocal advocates of gay rights are also very far to the left, and they tend to dislike the idea of marriage. In this, they are together with the traditionalists on the right, which regards marriage as nothing but a sacred accord between man and woman. There is just very little support for the idea of extending the marriage contract to homosexuals, and it was never really an issue that the government could tackle and hope to achieve a majority in parliament. Maybe in some years things will change, but I do not believe that history evolves linearly towards higher levels of freedom - there is normally a backlash at some point in the road, but this would open a completely different discussion altogether.
 
I dont see how a civil union would make everyone shy away from marriage and run towards "the easy thing". Why would they? Because finally there's a way to be officially together without getting married? I dont see where that makes sense.

I'm afraid that in some measure it does make sense, at least here. There is a growing divide, at least here, between men and women on this issue (although I would appreciate a guy's opinion on this, my view is obviously biased). As far as I see, men are less and less inclined toward marriage, if you exclude devout Christians and the far right. It is seen as an unnecessary constriction. On the other hand, most women still prefer marriage over cohabitation, maybe for mere reasons of romanticism... although the "no marriage" camp is gaining ground among them too. I have a sneaking suspicion that civil unions could be ultimately a sexist institution, but it might be just me.
 
Im not sure how representetive my very subjective perception is, or if there is a development towards one side or another, but around me I see quite a few stable relationships. Of course there are those too immature or manicly sexually active who prefer one-night stands, but most people seem to go for longterm relationships and Id say most plan on getting married. Of course it's hard to say, because in the beginning, even if the relation is mature and stable and both sides intend to make it a longterm relationship, that if all goes right will result in a marriage, it is not an option at that point.
With all this open-mindedness and all, I think in the end most people realise they are with their significant other for a very good reason and are willing to make it official, too. The ones who "dont want to get tied down" or whatever are really a minority imo.
 
Not a minority here. hehehe. But I don't think that those who chose celibacy and one-night-stands are immature. To be in a relationship doesn't mean you're mature. Marriage doesn't mean anything at all for me, I don't believe in God and Church and all, so I guess I would lie if I say "Yes" in a church :) A stable relationship doesn't need marriage to be true. It could easily be "official" in our heart...
 
Well, his comment was positively racist.

Absolutely not. I found it here, a few pages ago. Where was your racist-alarm then?
(and besides, I bascially didn´t comment on the detailed content of your post, I just recognized a pattern :) as did Taliesin)



Everyone would be up in arms and rightly so if someone said "all black people are lazy" or "all jews are greedy" - as far as i know, generalizations based on someone's race or nationality are wrong. That's exactly why some people reacted to the generalization implied by one of Taliesin's posts, i.e. "all americans are stupid" (incidentally, i know he did not mean to offend the whole population, but it probably came out wrong).

Why should someone be entitled to say that Italians are silly and should not be taken seriously just on account of their nationality? You can make fun of me all you want and decree that I am "bitching" all you want, but I will just not buy into racist statements.
I have to say that I didn´t agree with Taliesin about "americans" back then, and I also don´t agree with Viz, the point was just that someone made a generally silly remark about your country where you wished they would make an effort to understand better, and you where mightily upset about it, similar to when I was upset about the "german" pictures being posted as kind of an ironic joke.
I, too, know the strengths and weaknesses of my country very well, and I have highlighted more the negative aspects of it during discussions in recent months, so I also don´t see any reason to be called oversensitive about it. I agree with you that generalizations based on nationality are not right.




I was not "defending my country" on grounds of perceived superiority
I didn´t think that you were doing that but I also don´t know why you come up with the "racist"-concept here, doesn´t apply at all IMHO.
 
someone made a generally silly remark about your country where you wished they would make an effort to understand better, and you where mightily upset about it, similar to when I was upset about the "german" pictures being posted as kind of an ironic joke.

Well, it's not that important really, but I think that there is a difference. Is someone clearly makes a joke about national stereotypes, it might be in bad taste (generally speaking, I do not think it is, when it's clear that you don't despise people from country A just because they come from country A) but it's not racist. On the other hand, when you are serious, as Viz probably was, in labeling everyone from country A "silly" or "ridiculous" just because they are from country A... well, that is racist. I do not think that rahvin could possibly believe that all Germans wear spiked helmets, whereas Viz said that political debate in Italy is generally stupid compared to what happens in other countries, and I have the impression that he believes it.

As for the "typical German" quip, which was made seriously and not jokingly... That's a generalization but I wouldn't call it a racial slur. It was not "Germans are typically murderous bastards", but "Germans are typically anti-american", if I recall correctly. This is akin to saying "Italians are typically lovers of football", just taking a statistic that might be true in the majority of cases and making it an axiom. Of course such generalizations are bound to be wrong in some cases (you are not anti-american, rahvin is not interested in football), but they still do not entail any insult: being anti-american refers to a political opinion, liking football refers to a preference in entertainment, and none of these characterizations is offensive per se. Now, if someone comes up with "All Germans are illiterate" and they are serious about it, I will gladly side with you.
 
Not a minority here. hehehe. But I don't think that those who chose celibacy and one-night-stands are immature. To be in a relationship doesn't mean you're mature. Marriage doesn't mean anything at all for me, I don't believe in God and Church and all, so I guess I would lie if I say "Yes" in a church :) A stable relationship doesn't need marriage to be true. It could easily be "official" in our heart...

I understand the religious part of the argument, but why would you not be interested in civil marriage, with no God and no Churches to speak of?
 
But I don't think that those who chose celibacy and one-night-stands are immature. To be in a relationship doesn't mean you're mature.
I have yet to meet someone who's actually choosing celibacy, as opposed to someone who just doesnt find anyone to their liking.
Of course a relationship isnt the ultimate proof of maturity, but at least it shows commitment, a serious nature of character and a somewhat bearable character, too.
Being in a relation also kind of shows that you're thinking about your future, that you have a plan and that you stick to it, that you're aware of your personnal responsibility and dont live your life thinking from one day to another, doing what you please.
Of course it's not as black and white as that and being single is of course not at all a sign of immaturity, but I do see tendencies there.

/E: Maybe I should explain a little more:

I think that the thing that qualifies one most for a relationship is the capacity to work out compromises. If at every point of argument, the couple decides they'll both do what they want, it's really not much of a relationships, or often enough, it's not possible to do both. Another thing that has great influence on how a relation works out is the capability of de-escalating conflicts, of staying calm and objective even in difficult situations or when the other gets personal/agressive.
I think both of these traits of character are also a good indication of how mature someone is. Of course there are enough relations with morbid ways of arguments, bad communication and morbid outcomes of fights/arguments, but as I said before, I do think there is a certain tendency ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Child of Time
Well, his comment was positively racist.

Wrong. Rahvin agreed 100% with the intent of his message, are you calling him a racist as well? Your overusage of the "racist-card" is positively bordering on idiotism. Stating facts about the general tone of political discussions in any country has absolutely nothing to do with racism.

Your oversensitivity and national pride is, once again, blinding you completely from the point of the discussion - way beyond Fireangel's earlier reaction to the "Germany"-topic. Please re-read the messages (including your own) above - you should be smart enough to understand you have completely overreacted here.

Edit: I just realized Hyena's reaction shows exactly what's wrong in typical Italian debates: One takes a perfectly valid, factual statement and somehow manages to misread it not only as an insult for him/herself, but as some sort of an universally evil (in this case racist) comment - than one proceeds to blurt out some seemingly related but actually completely unrelated facts (in this case regarding the content of the discussions, instead of the tone) and manages to end it with an insult that makes absolutely no sense. Typical Italian way of debate, I'd say.

Hyena, if you were being sarcastic, you really hit the mark here, and I apologize for not seeing your wit on the first read. If not, you need a long look in the mirror.

-Villain
 
Wrong. Rahvin agreed 100% with the intent of his message, are you calling him a racist as well?

Are you mad? rahvin is italian. criticizing your own country of course doesn't make you a racist. black people routinely call each other 'nigga' and nobody gets offended, it's the whites who should not use that word. as i said in another post, it is ok to point out your own country's flaws, and contribute to the debate in order to make it better. i seriously doubt that anyone can hate or despise themselves on geographical grounds; maybe you don't really like your national culture etc, but you will never just conclude that everyone who resides in your own country - including you - is inferior to everyone who resides in the neighboring countries.

Stating facts about the general tone of political discussions in any country has absolutely nothing to do with racism.

Again, sorry if I repeat myself, but are you mad?
Which facts? What the hell is everyone talking about?
Do you read Italian newspapers everyday?
How is, say, the tone of the debate on football violence sillier here than it was in the UK when they passed their anti-hooliganism laws?
You said that I was dodging the point of the tone by mentioning content: please read the original post made by Viz, he mentioned ISSUES being silly, not only DEBATES. As I already said, I don't see anything silly with issues such as troops in Afghanistan, civil unions, deregulation of utilities, US military bases on national ground, etc.
Back on topic: so how exactly is the debate stupider here than in another country? I don't care about absolute stupidity - ok, here on this forum we're all smarter than the rest of humanity, we see things that politicians don't see, blah blah blah. But Viz argued that Italians have stupider issues and debates than other countries.
Where do you get your proof? And why cannot I see it?
Are we relying on comedy TV? If I did the same, I would have to conclude that all Swedish women are nothing but sex objects, because they are mostly characterized like that on TV.
And you cannot just answer "Everybody knows that's how it is", because this is almost the definition of a stereotype. If it's grounded in fact, I want to hear your facts. And I am sure that if we go down to hard fact we will discover one very simple truth - some debates are going to be handled better in Spain than in Finland, and some debates are going to be handled better in Italy than in the Netherlands... and so on. Or maybe we will discover that after all there really is a master race who is better at everything. :Smug:
 
If he is so very racist, how come all rahvin has to say is basically "Yea, you're right."

I suggest you calm down, before the impression is received that in fact you are the mad one.
 
Are you mad? rahvin is italian. criticizing your own country of course doesn't make you a racist.

Are you stupid? Or just playing one? Criticising any country in the world does not make you a racist, unless you are basing your arguments on race. Viz did not say, anything about any race, your oversensitive nationalist ego just had to take it as if he implied so. He even corrected his first (admittedly very generalizing) statement, making it obvious to everyone that Rahvin's interpretation of his intent was correct. Everyone, except your overly sensitive little ego, of course.

What basis was there for his comment? Heck, pretty much everything you and rahvin both have stated in this thread in the past few days. You first go and criticise the level of political discussion in Italy, giving plenty of fine examples, and when one draws a (possibly stereotyped) conclusion from your own words, you choose to jump the gun and call him racist. Way to go.

I'll have to agree with what Taliesin said.

Edit: Oh, and one more fine example of "typical Italian" debate, it seems - instead of even trying to see the point of the other side, one starts calling them mad. Is it really better to try to make the other side look bad instead of actually debating in Italy? Because in many other countries it simply won't work.

-Villain
 
@tal: thanks for the suggestion, but after all what i did consisted mainly in posting explanatory stuff (for example, i answered kov's question about the debate on civil unions), trying to participate sensibly in the exchange of opinions on gay marriage, and pointing out some shortcomings of viz's quip, which i found insulting and still find insulting. i do not think that our brief discussion on relationships and marriage in the previous page is proof that italians express opinions that are less articulate or sillier than people from other nations. if anyone wants to prove to me that my post was less well-argued and articulate than kat's, hence underlining the superior nature of canadians as debaters, let them try.

the fact that rahvin is not insulted by viz's opinions pertains to his personal sensitivity in regards to certain subjects, not mine. it's a free world: i do believe in fighting against stereotypes that label me as silly, he probably does not. it's a difference in opinions and a difference in personality. i understand his feeling of defeat although i do not share it and i also think it may be counterproductive.

i will give an extreme example of what i am trying to say: you will all remember how martin luther king mentioned that he understood the motivations of those blacks who accepted to be seated in the rear rows of buses, and did not despise them as human beings even if they proved passive in the face of challenge. however, he hoped that more and more blacks would start refusing compulsory seating arrangements, and the fact that the majority was resigned to being discriminated against didn't make the discrimination any more acceptable.
 
i do believe in fighting against stereotypes that label me as silly

But here you are fighting against stereotypes that label the people you call silly, silly. He was not criticising you, he was criticising the same people you have criticised here in the past few days. Can't you really see that?

-Villain
 
What basis was there for his comment? Heck, pretty much everything you and rahvin both have stated in this thread in the past few days. You first go and criticise the level of political discussion in Italy, giving plenty of fine examples, and when one draws a (possibly stereotyped) conclusion from your own words, you choose to jump the gun and call him racist. Way to go.

Listen. If you don't understand this there is no way to make you, but I will give it one last try. In democratic countries, people are STAKEHOLDERS in national politics. What the government does and doesn't do affects them. So they have a right and a duty to criticize what is wrong, and hopefully contribute to make everything better. The first expression of this right and duty is the ability to vote. Then there are grass-roots organizations, political parties and all other forms of social organization.

On the other hand, last time I checked, people from other countries are NOT stakeholders in MY government. Except for special cases, our laws on civil unions will not affect how Danes and Finns go about their life. This does not mean that they cannot have an opinion, but they should kindly refrain from lumping everyone together just in order to produce slurs. If you haven't got anything nice to say, just don't say anything - it's not like you have a duty or a right to intervene. It's discourteous to say the least.

Also, it is completely undemocratic. Imagine if I started saying "I do not agree with drug laws in the Netherlands, they are stupid and they should go". Well, if the Dutch decided that they want these laws, who the fuck am I to say they shouldn't have them? It's their community, not mine. I don't pay taxes in Holland and don't vote there. If everyone worried about making their own country a better place to live rather than bashing other nationalities we would start to improve our lot (you say viz's comment was not based on race. i disagree. it was based on the mere fact of living in a country, and while this is not race technically speaking, the concept is the same: you were born with feature x so you are stupid).

And it's definitely paradoxical that I should be the one making left-wing comments all the time.
 
if anyone wants to prove to me that my post was less well-argued and articulate than kat's, hence underlining the superior nature of canadians as debaters, let them try.

I don't have the time nor the energy, nor the ability to debate in a second language, here. I'm sorry. I don't want you to believe that canadians are dumb, or that I am not articulate, or stupid. I don't have enough free time to write 1000 words answer now and then about a topic or another. Why people always judge on forum posts ? Come on, I am a lot more than what I write here ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.