chat, feelings, and random discussion thread

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I don't have the time nor the energy, nor the ability to debate in a second language, here. I'm sorry. I don't want you to believe that canadians are dumb, or that I am not articulate, or stupid. I don't have enough free time to write 1000 words answer now and then about a topic or another. Why people always judge on forum posts ? Come on, I am a lot more than what I write here ;)

but of course i was not implying that canadians are dumb. :) i was saying exactly the converse - the fact that i debated the point at lenght and you didn't doesn't say anything about our countries. that's what some people here fail to see.
 
I have yet to meet someone who's actually choosing celibacy, as opposed to someone who just doesnt find anyone to their liking.
Of course a relationship isnt the ultimate proof of maturity, but at least it shows commitment, a serious nature of character and a somewhat bearable character, too.
Being in a relation also kind of shows that you're thinking about your future, that you have a plan and that you stick to it, that you're aware of your personnal responsibility and dont live your life thinking from one day to another, doing what you please.
Of course it's not as black and white as that and being single is of course not at all a sign of immaturity, but I do see tendencies there.

/E: Maybe I should explain a little more:

I think that the thing that qualifies one most for a relationship is the capacity to work out compromises. If at every point of argument, the couple decides they'll both do what they want, it's really not much of a relationships, or often enough, it's not possible to do both. Another thing that has great influence on how a relation works out is the capability of de-escalating conflicts, of staying calm and objective even in difficult situations or when the other gets personal/agressive.
I think both of these traits of character are also a good indication of how mature someone is. Of course there are enough relations with morbid ways of arguments, bad communication and morbid outcomes of fights/arguments, but as I said before, I do think there is a certain tendency ;)

I think you're making it too general. I know a lot of people, who are totally immature, and they always have complicated relationships, etc. And believe me, it's not a proof that they're thinking of their future, they're sick emotionally.. but as I said, I don't wanna generalize also, so it depends on the people. And I know single persons, that care about their future, and that are totally mature and happy!!! Future + Maturity = Love relationship ? I am really not sure about that !!!! In 2007, future means a lot more than finding love.
 
but of course i was not implying that canadians are dumb. :) i was saying exactly the converse - the fact that i debated the point at lenght and you didn't doesn't say anything about our countries. that's what some people here fail to see.


Anyway it was only a quick answer about my very personal opinion. I'm not sure I got all this "country" issue ... :S Does every country has its own way to debate ? Hehehehe I really don't care actually, I'm curious, I'm way more interested in foreign people than in canadians :D Anyway, they are all boring! Hehehehehe!!!! Except people from the Quebec province, of couuuuuuuuuuuuuurse !
 
Imagine if I started saying "I do not agree with drug laws in the Netherlands, they are stupid and they should go". Well, if the Dutch decided that they want these laws, who the fuck am I to say they shouldn't have them? It's their community, not mine.
Uuh, opinions and their expressions are what this board is all about? And last time I checked, I had every right in the world to throw in my 2 cents on whatever topic I wanted. Unless maybe it's personal. But apparently the tone of debate in Italy is a personal matter to you now. A tone that at times frustrates you so much you give statements like these:
i sometimes feel like i'm the only sane person in the world
 
Also, it is completely undemocratic. Imagine if I started saying "I do not agree with drug laws in the Netherlands, they are stupid and they should go". Well, if the Dutch decided that they want these laws, who the fuck am I to say they shouldn't have them? It's their community, not mine. I don't pay taxes in Holland and don't vote there.

So, you are saying none of us should criticise the politics of, let's say, Iran, because none of us live there? If yes, I must agree to disagree. But in that case I must also call you the biggest hypocrite of this forum.

If you are drawing some lines between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" criticism, please tell me where you stand. For the vast majority of the people I know (including everyone else on this forum but you), Viz's criticism was perfectly acceptable, based on the previous discussion.

Oh, and there's nothing undemocratic about criticising other countries. You are, once again, completely misusing the term.

Also, both you and I happen to live in the European Union, and one of the aims of EU is, as far as I know, to bring the politics and legislations of the member-states closer to each other. Thus, the political culture of Italy might actually very well affect the lives of, say, my children. The same goes for Viz.

Can't you just accept that you are being horribly oversensitive here? I mean, even way beyond the usual oversensitiveness of this forum. I commend your stand against racism, but you should not try to find racism where there is none, because doing so will water down the whole ideology of anti-racism.

And here I'm equally astounded by how suddenly I'm more a moderate left-winger than you in this case. Could you just please stop swinging from one extreme to another?

-Villain
 
Shortly after Damage Done i think. They look really tight and well kept after, and it seems like they´ve had time to "dread up". Mine hasn´t got as far at all :(
 
So, you are saying none of us should criticise the politics of, let's say, Iran, because none of us live there? If yes, I must agree to disagree. But in that case I must also call you the biggest hypocrite of this forum.

1. Iran's citizens did not choose Iran's policies. A dictator who labels himself 'president' chooses policies for everyone. This is wrong (and yes, I am ideological and intolerant on this topic). And I will criticize the fact that they have a dictator rather than a democratically elected leader every time.

2. Even if Iran had a democracy, if they were planning to nuke me then it would be MY problem. While a Spanish football fan could be irked that Italian stadiums are going to stay closed for a while for security reasons, it's hardly the same thing.

3. I do agree with you on the EU idea: the votes cast by MEPs from Italy are going to affect you and your children. I think that the few Italians who made fools of themselves in that context, most notably Mr Berlusconi, were rightly sanctioned by the Parliament itself and European public opinion. If you participate willingly in an international context, you should abide by its rules.

4. I think that I am not going to win the argument about racism and discrimination, and this worries me. Most people seem to be content with thinking that the level of political debate in my country is very low. Probably they also buy into other pejorative stereotypes having to do with not shaving one's armpits or belonging to criminal organizations. All I can say is that I spent considerable periods of time abroad, mostly on business (which puts you in touch with the locals more than tourism), and found that something was better than it is here, but something was worse. It seems so obvious that I don't even see why I should keep on stating this point. I am sick and tired of being made fun on grounds that I have no responsibility for whatsoever, since I didn't choose to be born here, and it is especially annoying when I realize that most accusations are greatly exaggerated. I'm sorry, but I do not attack people on grounds of nationality, period. You go on and do as you please.

Again, I sometimes think that I'm the only sane person in the world. Did you read what Viz said? He mentioned the other neighboring countries - he said that debates and issues in Italy are sillier than what happens in all other neighboring countries.

Viz lives in Slovenia. The large majority of his neighboring countries were trying to exterminate one another up to at least 1993 - and the Italians are the worst of the pack? Well, at least nobody gets shot when we discuss politics. And while I will re-affirm that I have no right to intrude (if not academically) on, say, Britain's electoral system, attempted genocide is a crime against humanity and I feel I can freely express my disapproval.

Don't you see the prejudice at work? Italians are worse than peoples who accepted to be led by warlords who killed in the name of religion and ethnicity. Don't you see how abysmally STUPID this is?
 
If he is so very racist, how come all rahvin has to say is basically "Yea, you're right."

You're giving me way too much credit as some unbiased judge of other people's racism. Yes, I have the impression that Italy is - on average - more stupid in the media than many neighboring countries. But remember my main focus of interest is language and communication, so I'm often commenting on things from that angle. If Viz meant what hyena thinks I'm definitely less inclined to agree. Let's not make the opposite mistake: not just because I'm Italian every word that comes out of my mouth not praising Italy must be pure gold.

And if it comes to that, I assure you I have saved so many pictures of Lederhosen I can easily get you to want to burn me at the stake again before sunset. ;)
 
@tal: thanks for the suggestion, but after all what i did consisted mainly in posting explanatory stuff (for example, i answered kov's question about the debate on civil unions), trying to participate sensibly in the exchange of opinions on gay marriage...


I think the posts that Villain meant to be related to Viz´s comment were these.


i do believe in fighting against stereotypes that label me as silly, he probably does not. it's a difference in opinions and a difference in personality. i understand his feeling of defeat although i do not share it and i also think it may be counterproductive.

Brilliant. In your wish to come out as winner in the debate you insulted rahvin on the way.



As for the nukes, I hope you are aware that it won´t really matter if they are targeted to Italy, Germany, Sweden, Spain or whereever, they´ll still poison half of Europe.
Edit: and they also have influence on many countries because of the resulting refugees, need in medical treatment, loss of industrial and farm production etc.


Edit 2: thanks to rahvin I noticed my mistake in the selection of words. Unfortunately, rahvin sometimes misses irony.
 
i insulted rahvin? but come on. i just said that he has a feeling of defeat, i.e. he is accepting the fact that his nationality is commonly associated with bad traits. is that an insult?
 
he is accepting the fact that his nationality is commonly associated with bad traits. is that an insult?

Well, judging on how you reacted to Viz's comment, you do believe it is an insult.

Myself, having my nationality associated with bad traits (i.e. The 53rd state, A bunch of dumb Lumberjacks and even province-related: lazy drunkards who party too much and live off welfare while whining for separation) is no insult at all. Then again, in the front of insult and racism (or nationalism?) I rarely take anything seriously. It's all a question of who is doing the comment. Of course, if said nemesis calls me "insert stereotypical insult here" and actually is stupid enough to believe what he just said, I would then make it my solemn duty to explain how absurdly wrong he is and convince him of not perpetuating such idiotics beliefs. However, say some not-so-nemesis comes around and puches in another comment: well, I know it's solely to exaggerate a specific behaviour of my fellow countrymen and that the not-so-nemesis would never even dare believing that everyone is a personification of stereotype X. Therefore the only thing left for to do is reply with another idiotic stereotype and laugh a good bit.

Now, I never met Viz but judging from what I managed to grasp of the man's identity over this here forum, I doubt that he is presently writing some sort of "Manifest to exterminate the Italians because they have silly arguments".



edit: Hopefully, my limited capacities as a debater (especially in English) hasn't wasted too much of your time.
 
I am sick and tired of being made fun on grounds that I have no responsibility for whatsoever, since I didn't choose to be born here, and it is especially annoying when I realize that most accusations are greatly exaggerated. I'm sorry, but I do not attack people on grounds of nationality, period.

No one attacked you. No one even attacked your nationality. If anything was attacked, it was the perceived typical Italian political dialoque - and the basis on this "attack" was largely your previous statements on the matter. How far are you trying to twist this argument? Why do you have to see yourself as some sort of a victim here, where you obviously never were one? Just like you said, you have no responsibility of the quality of debates in Italian politics - there's no reason for you to feel insulted!

As for the comparison, everything going on in Italy is certainly a lot sillier than what happened in Yugoslavia - because there's absolutely nothing silly about genocide. Can't you see it? It is just like Rahvin stated, first world issues with third world mentality, whereas a little over a decade ago there were third world issues with Neanderthalean mentality in Bosnia and Croatia. That is how I read Viz's statement - and so would've you, had you not been so blinded by your national oversensitivity and preparedness to perceive yourself constantly targeted and attacked. The point of his comparison was not that Italians are any worse than anyone else, it was just that Italians are having hugely dramatized and emotionally overloaded political debates about certain issues (like you have repeatedly told us) - the kind of issues the less developed countries would be happy to have instead of their own, medieval issues.

Also, he said that the way the Italian political debates are presented (by you, and by media) is threatening the perspective other people have of Italians. Which, I believe, is a very important observation. And again, this appeared as a legitimate concern, not as any sort of an attack - to all the sensible people, at least.

Just for comparison, let me represent a similar argument from another perspective:

Me: I hate the way the Finnish tabloids are all over our Prime Minister's recent love affair (there's really no such tradition in Finland, "political celebrity scandals" are a relatively new thing around here).
Another Finn, let's say Ormir: Yeah, they just spew out all kinds of shit about him, and forget all the really important issues.
Me: And the worst thing is the stupid people buy and read them.
Ormir: True, Finnish journalism is getting worse every day.
A Swede, let's say Erik: Finnish tabloids are stupid, they make Finns look sillier than even Norwegians.
Me: Fucking racist, go fuck yourself! Raargh!!! :yell:

Can you see the similarity? Can you see the horribly idiotic overreaction? Good.

Finally, I must say that I keep to myself the right to criticise the political system or the quality of debates of any country in the world, even if I don't know where they are on the map, and even if I base all my knowledge on them on what someone wrote on some internet-forum. That's part of the free speech, after all. You may have chosen to give your right away, but all the other people in the world still have it. And if you always choose to be insulted when someone criticises something you have no responsibility of, it is your problem, not theirs.

-Villain
 
I'm [officially] launching my own business next week :)

My offer is blowing any competition out of the water - I've been on it for years and seen everything, so I have right to say I'm the best.

Let's see how it actually works now...
 
Villain, you just don't know what it is like to try and be an active contributor in a country that is routinely bombarded by abuse on the part of ignorant foreigners. Your own country, and Scandinavia in general, is always presented as a paragon of civility and modernity: the successful welfare state of the Nordic countries, the pleasant mix of wealth and attention for the less well-off, the beautiful men and women, etc etc.
That's the Scandinavian stereotype in the rest of Europe. I swear that I have heard even people who have very little education and probably couldn't place Oslo on a map shouting "I am going to move to Norway tomorrow!" when frustrated by a queue in a public office.
It's easy to be tolerant of comments that could be offensive when they are not routinely directed at you. But most times I go abroad I have to tolerate the veiled insults and the blatant prejudice - this enhances my ability to see unfairness for what it is.
 
Don't attach it all to yourself. Being from somewhere doesn't define you as a person. No one here is a biggot as far as I can see so no one will assume the worst of others because they're eskimos and love fishing with polar bear bones or whatever.

If a nation, city, town or village were filled with clones of any of you guys, it would probably be a delightful place to live.

I always wished when I was rallying at tennis that I could be rallying with an exact clone. It always seemed to be the other person who messed the rally up. Not just that but I'd be able to see what I was doing wrong. Same thing really.
 
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