chat, feelings, and random discussion thread

[Salamurhaaja]

Foamy make me happy.

 

[KitKat]

Same here. That event was my big autumn holiday and now I stand in the face of nothingness yet again. Guess I'll have to go see Maiden @ the Bell Centre and Moonspell @ The Medley to compensate.

And buy lots of cds.

I'll take the money I would have spent for that little trip for a new tatoo, from a drawing by Niklas !

 

[RampageSword]

I should shuffle through Gadus Morhua and see if there' s something I like.

 

[KitKat]

I should shuffle through Gadus Morhua and see if there' s something I like.

Well my aim wasn't to have a tatoo by Niklas. It was a coincidence. I saw a girlie shirt of DT and thought: Yay that'll be my next tatoo for sure!
And then, I learned that it was designed by Niklas so... I didn't know at this time that he did artwork and merch design etc...

I'll post a pic when it'll be done!

 

[KitKat]

Oh Yeah! New nickname

 

[Cuthalion]

Hi, i just got back from my vacation and i had a great time. I see that i need some catching up to do and lots to read through. How is everybody?

 

[rahvin]

Hi there. I'm hot. And by that I don't mean I got any sexier, which would have been next to impossible anyway.

 

[Magrathean]

Another example:

The first time someone tells you a fence is electrified... you touch it out of curiousty and as a result think, Im never touching an electric fence again. RIGHT! All you do is cause yourself inevitable temporary pain. It's stupid. I wish I never touched that fence. It hurt.

You're missing a key point: All electric fences are the same (i.e. all will invariably electrocute you) but not all people are the same (i.e. not everybody is a bitch).

 

[Rincewind]

Skimming through here made me glad I came back long enough to give a 'congrats' to you guys. Now, I shall disappear!

Thanks a lot , but you don't need to disappear so quickly

...........and why can't anybody see me and Rahvin get married?

Oh, I can...that's why I said it was priceless

(ok, I know that's not really what you meant... unless you really were just being malicious... in which case... ouch!)

Good that you know

But if the first time You cracked your skull open...

You wouldn't be too keen to climb the ladder and take the plunge again.

No, you wouldn't, but it doesn't mean that it's not worth sometimes. If I thought same as you (and I was disappointed in love before), I wouldn't be today with an amazing person. Point is, SOMETIMES it is worth a try, careful one, but a try.

 

[King Chaos]

You're missing a key point: All electric fences are the same (i.e. all will invariably electrocute you) but not all people are the same (i.e. not everybody is a bitch).

Nah, you're missing the point. I'm not saying love is like bowling, or an electric fence. I'm saying we learn from our mistakes/bad experiences and under different circumstances what we learn can either end up detering us forever or can just put us off a little. The example/similie/metaphor/whatever it was I made for love was the greasey diving board. I don't like being told I'm missing some kind of point by everyone, when I take long and precise, clear ways to make it as laymanly as possible.

 

[Dark_Silence]

doesn't mean that it's not worth sometimes. If I thought same as you (and I was disappointed in love before), I wouldn't be today with an amazing person. Point is, SOMETIMES it is worth a try, careful one, but a try.

I think that when you get disapointed with love, you just need to wait a bit, untill you forget more or less about this person that disapointed you.
I wasnt looking for love or anything when I started to talk with Konrad, but then when we met ...

Just give it a try when you feel like it, when you feel you have found somebody thats worth it. I waited a long time before I got a boyfriend for the first time, but I didint want to go out with anybody, like lots of people who were in my high school.

I think love comes when you dont expect it at all. I dont think it is a good idea to try to "get along" with everybody just to try to find love.

 

[Rincewind]

@D_S: Agreed completely

 

[King Chaos]

Now personally (and Im not trying to hog this topic, I'm just putting my experience of mending on here) I find (and maybe it's just where I live...) good women are few and far between/obsolete. Sure there's tonnes of pretty women... there's tonnes of outspoken women... but there's not many with a bit of culture or with their heads screwed on right (I'm not being sexist, it's the same for men around here too actually). I honestly haven't met a potential girlfriend in over a year. But if one came along, and there was chemistry and all that jazz, I'd give a relationship a shot. I just don't want her to be thinking after 2 weeks I'm gonna be telling her I love her... and likewise I don't want to hear it from her. I don't need to hear that word to have my interpretation of their affection for me validified.

 

[Dark_Silence]

@ KC:It was the same for me in Belgium. All the guys I met were dumb or didnt have anything in common with me...

 

[KitKat]

It really depends on who you are and who you meet at what time in your life. It's all a matter of circonstances... imo!

 

[Villain]

Continuing from the other thread:

Rahvin and Taliesin, you are right: my example was bad, I just couldn't come up with anything better at the moment. However, if I now change it to: "The woman of my dreams wants me to move to Australia with her, promising to love me 'til the end of my time." - the result will still be the same. Granted, I'd probably try to discuss the matter and suggest other possibilities ("You go there and I'll visit you every holiday") now that she isn't actually blackmailing me. But in the end it would all be over. I can't imagine a woman who'd be worth it - and I can imagine quite a lot.

Now, this leads me to ask you...

The strangling strings of co-dependency and emotional aggravation you seem to think are the intended content of love are nothing but its worst by-product.

What then is the real content of love? I'm truly a bit baffled here, as I can't say I know the answer. As Rincewind said, it might be simply because I haven't felt the kind of love you guys are discussing, but I have kind of thought that love is all about two persons' emotional dependency of each other - the feeling that you want to be with her all the time, you want to make her happy even if it costs you much, you want to make her the gravitational center of your life, forcing everything else on orbits far away. And that leads to neglecting all the truly important things in life (which would in my case include friends, roleplaying games, volunteer work, anime, DT, internet forums, etc).

What is it that I would gain in return? Someone who is always at my side when needed? Great, but luckily I have some such people already. Someone to share my moments of joy and pain with? Again, there's plenty of such people. The feeling of perfect emotional closeness with someone? I think I can survive without. Getting to know someone very intimately? Thanks, but that's what I try to do at work. Sex? Well, yeah, I'll take that... A housemaid??...

Apart from the last two, I don't see myself needing any love in my life. What is it that I'm missing here? What makes you guys so willing to sacrifice the smaller (and sometimes even larger) things in life for love?

I'm not a cold-hearted person (or am I?), but I really can't place more value on some intimate emotional relationship than on the existing "practical" relationships of my life.

I mean, I could share my home with someone: live with her, discuss with her, watch movies with her, eat with her - even have all those arguments that are unavoidable when two people spend too much time together. Sex would be a nice bonus, but not necessary.

Now, add in love to this hypothetical platonic relationship of mine. We are suddenly much closer to each other, spending our time together even when away from home. We now need to be aware of each others emotions and opinions, otherwise our relationship might be ruined. We need to start sacrificing things to make sure our relationship lasts. We need to plan our future together, because we can't have contradictory plans. The meaning of everything else diminishes quickly - soon there's nothing but us.

No, I much rather take the first option, the sensible and practical relationship without the burden of love.

-Villain

 

[Villain]

Tritonus:

I think you sound like I did 2 or 3 years ago. I was about 14 then....

The funny coincidence is, you sound like I did 12 or 13 years ago. I was about 14 then... :Smokedev:

Well, not really. But I do remember that I had some romantic fantasies when I was much younger. Imagination has always been my forte, and back then I could imagine myself finding eternal love and living with a girl of my dreams... and then I discovered the cold realities of life. Not that I was ever hurt like King Chaos, no. I just noticed that I don't really need love.

Still, I kind of hope you won't lose that romantic idealism of yours when you get older. There's enough of us cynics already, I'm afraid.

-Villain

 

[rahvin]

Oh, goodness. I know in advance I'm going to sound like the most self-righteous prick on the face of the Earth (and the muffled voices commenting it would be nothing new can go eat pineapples: I'm going to be worse than usual, that's what I'm saying). Please, Villain, understand I don't mean to. I have no truths to impart, your way of living your life is as good as mine and possibly a lot better.

However, if I now change it to: "The woman of my dreams wants me to move to Australia with her, promising to love me 'til the end of my time." - the result will still be the same. Granted, I'd probably try to discuss the matter and suggest other possibilities ("You go there and I'll visit you every holiday") now that she isn't actually blackmailing me. But in the end it would all be over. I can't imagine a woman who'd be worth it - and I can imagine quite a lot.

Well, this makes sense to me. You're not willing to move to Australia for no other reason than the possibility of an ever-lasting relationship. There's no need for a woman to be worth something like that for love to be a feeling with some - or a lot of - merit.

I'll try to clarify: separate the idea that love implies sacrifice from the idea that love implies pointless, gigantic sacrifice just because. It's pretty much a done deal that if you're not inclined to move anywhere without a reason founded in your job or interests, then you're not going to spend all eternity with an Australian gal who's likewise not much in the mood to travel. Should you fall for one, well, too bad, let's move on to the next.

This is highly subjective and - a little like what I was talking about with Tritonus - a sign that love can hardly survive on its own, in an empty field where you first decide you "totally omfg ^_^ luuuv" her, and then proceed to change your desires/habits/personality according to please her. It should really be the other way around: when you meet a girl who seems to be in tune with what you like and what you're aiming at in life, then you open up a door and maybe decide it'd be nice to share more with her. Share things you wouldn't share with a friend, make plans for a situation where you get to pursue your interests together - for instance - because, frankly, it's a tad more pleasant.

What then is the real content of love?

I'll tackle this answering each question/hyopthesis of yours, because I can't express anything exhaustive as an answer. Of course, I don't know either. I don't know anybody who does. You probably approach the subject by proximity, or by at least ruling out what you absolutely do not want to be the content of love.

but I have kind of thought that love is all about two persons' emotional dependency of each other

No, no. That part is unintentional, and best kept to a minimum. Of course there is emotional interaction, like reacting to each other's moods and being sensitive when it comes to how your significant other feels. But you want to avoid being a sad sop who screams "OH MY GOD DID I HURT YOU???" and hit your head with a wooden stick every time you accidentally step on her foot.

the feeling that you want to be with her all the time,

Maybe, and maybe not. If you two want to be with each other all the time, more power to you, hope you share at least the same continent. If you are ok with taking some alone time, or time spent with friends who are not mutual every once in a while, that's healthy too. There's no set rules aside from a certain proportion in the way both people involved feel.

you want to make her happy even if it costs you much,

That's more like it, yes. But I don't see why this part seems to scare so much a person as giving and selfless as you, Villain. It's really not that different from wanting to provide and help others. We're really not talking happy as in receiving bolts of adrenaline to the chest every second she's with you. Just, you know, the normal stuff only with a bit more fire in it.

you want to make her the gravitational center of your life, forcing everything else on orbits far away.

For the first part, see the "spending all the time together" answer. The second half of this statement sounds a little morbid if you ask me. There's no rule saying only because she's more important than other things, other things will have to disappear. If your interests are so pervasive that they take up all of your time, then it's true that you don't need love in your life (at the moment), but it's not because it's love that's unnecessary, it's because you have other things on your mind.

And that leads to neglecting all the truly important things in life (which would in my case include friends, roleplaying games, volunteer work, anime, DT, internet forums, etc).

For instance, my current girlfriend (a) goes out with my friends when I do (and I with hers); (b) is working just around the corner of this office right now (while I write on forums instead. The joys of slavery! ); (c) likes DT as much as any person with a brain should; (d) frequently reads a couple of websites I read as well (in fact, we read them together); (e) is interested in my hobbies and the things I like enough to show that she's not either dragging her feet or overly enthusiastic just because it's her beloved rahvin telling her they're great. This is after less than three months going out together. I don't really feel like I'm neglecting important things in life. I'm probably neglecting things that were really not that important to begin with. Too bad. I'll pick them up again if I ever feel spending time with her is not worth it any longer.

What is it that I would gain in return? Someone who is always at my side when needed?

Perhaps, but it's not as if you plan to give your significant other vast amounts of your time so that one day you'll use them for a crutch. It's normal that, among people in a successful relationship, moments of uneasiness are faced together and with much support given and taken. Achieving that, however, is really not the reasoning behind the masterplan of all us geniuses who choose a family life: it's a consequence of caring.

Someone to share my moments of joy and pain with? Again, there's plenty of such people.

Again, as above. It's great that you already have people who, apparently, fill your emotional needs (or wishes), and it's also great that you don't really want to find a girlfriend to cure your loneliness. Still, this idea is superficial and more typical of the kind of people who don't really look for much in a companion, except for him/her to be there and share the misery. You're more in the category who might want a partner in crime, no matter the crime.

I'll post a second part later, I gotta rush right now.

 

[Villain]

Rahvin: Thanks. You are actually making sense to me now. I'll be waiting for the second part before I reply.

-Villain

 

[fireangel]

... but I have kind of thought that love is all about two persons' emotional dependency of each other - the feeling that you want to be with her all the time, you want to make her happy even if it costs you much, you want to make her the gravitational center of your life, forcing everything else on orbits far away. And that leads to neglecting all the truly important things in life (which would in my case include friends, roleplaying games, volunteer work, anime, DT, internet forums, etc).

If you would give up everything that you like, then what would be left? All the things you like doing, what you spend your time on, which are important to you, they influence and "make" you. Do you think you could be a personality without all your interests? I don´t think so. Besides, it would get pretty boring if you don´t do things on your own / with different people, there would not come anything new to your life, and thus stop your development. And the same case would apply for her. Do you think that your girlfriend should then equally sacrifice everything and stop pursuing her interests (I don´t mean you do_think_that, but you seem to assume that you´d need to do this in a relationship, so of course it would be the same for the girl..)

Of course you want to make your girl-/boyfriend happy, but you cannot do that if you are unhappy and mourn over all that you can´t do anymore, like your list above. Being emotionally dependent wouldn´t mean to stop being two persons - at least I think so. It´s the interaction. I´d find it very bad if people can only exist as twosomes, because then you would be so dependent that you can´t live on your own, as a solitary person. That´s what sometimes leads people to be in a long chain of relationships without even a day break inbetween (I once heard somebody at uni say: wow, this is the first day I´m single since I was fourteen).

Since you are very content with yourself, that´s actually perfect to be happily waiting til a cute, quirky anime-loving metal-girl with two plaids comes along

Now, add in love to this hypothetical platonic relationship of mine. We are suddenly much closer to each other, spending our time together even when away from home. We now need to be aware of each others emotions and opinions, otherwise our relationship might be ruined. We need to start sacrificing things to make sure our relationship lasts. We need to plan our future together, because we can't have contradictory plans. The meaning of everything else diminishes quickly - soon there's nothing but us.

A point that you haven´t mentioned or noticed is, that when two people throw their emotions together and share their life, from this does emerge something new, something different to what they would have if they weren´t together.
Of course a couple is aware of each others´ emotions and opinions, but not as a sacrifice. It comes naturally and it does not mean "oh my goth, s/he doesn´t like band XY, now I can never listen to them again", rather you find yourself thinking about the wellbeing of the other person.
Also I think that people who are finding themselves together would have chosen someone who agrees with their main points about life. So many of their values are close to each other, and they share a few characteristics, which eliminates already a lot of potential problems. That doesn´t mean they are similar in everything, but have the same guidelines on how they live their life, but this solid structure is filled differently by each person.

What I mean is, you would probably not fall in love with a girl who is right/conservative/pro-war, listens only to TikTak and works in a nuclear plant, so with that out of the way, there are not that many major compromises to make

edit: few points mentioned by rahvin, too, but his post wasn´t there when I started writing this.