chat, feelings, and random discussion thread

[Villain]

I used to believe something along these lines, but I realized at some point that kids are pretty much all skilled enough to take care of themselves and overcome the effects of bad parenting somehow.

Uhm, I wish it were so. Many of them, yes, but the ones who are not skilled enough end up being my customers, you know. Of all the young criminals I've worked with in the past year, only one or two have decent parents. All the rest come from completely dysfunctional families.

-Villain

 

[darktranq]

considering what i have witnessed as the younger generations have grown up underneath me (yes i am only 25, but im not naive, i can see how the teenagers and younger children are growing up and the effects of society is having on us/them), parents are letting their children get away with murder, letting them dress how they want, eat what they want, and children are learning to be less respectful towards people. heck, even adults are becoming less respectful towards other people.

society as a whole is sliding down a slippery slope where the old attributes of respect, courtesy, and the general treat people how you would like to be treated idea is being left in history. its quite sad really. i for one will not stoop to that level, and is something that i will be passing onto my own children when i have them.

 

[rahvin]

Uhm, I wish it were so. Many of them, yes, but the ones who are not skilled enough end up being my customers, you know. Of all the young criminals I've worked with in the past year, only one or two have decent parents. All the rest come from completely dysfunctional families.

Yes, I understand this is how it happens, most of the times. I'm still convinced the balance tips in favor of allowing most - not all - people to have kids, so they have a chance to be something other than young criminals.

 

[hyena]

@villain: well, surprisingly ( ) i do agree with the point you're making with the short story. of course, in an ideal world, people should be altruistic, and refuse to be a burden to their children or anyone else. i'm just saying that there are circumstances in life where this is not possible, because even the most selfless hero can be broken by pain. probably s/he will remain selfless, and try to avoid weighing on the people by whom s/he is loved, but then again these people should know better than heed the advice. i'm not saying this out of some ideology, and that's also why i'm completely convinced that (for a large majority of cases) i'm right.

as for the young criminals, i also agree that having children and then abusing them or neglecting them is completely indecent, especially when said children then turn on other people by becoming violent members of society as adults. but then again, i agree with rahvin: most people can sort themselves out without turning to drugs or crime, i know a lot of people who come from broken homes (sometimes dreadfully broken) and not all of them are deviant or substance users. and anyway depriving people of the chance to reproduce if they want is, IMO, a violation of basic human rights: who says who should be allowed and who shouldn't? personally, i feel sorry for people who were born in very uneducated households, even if there was no misbehavior on the part of the parents, because they'll probably have to spend their life trying to catch up with those who had a cultural advantage. still, i would be pretty much of a nazi if i said that only people with a postgrad degree can have children.

 

[Hiljainen]

However, the part I take exception to is that about reproducing. I truly don't believe that this is a 'must-have' the way many people make it out to be. I personally don't have any plans to have a kid (not that I'm really sure I'd be able to at all) and I don't feel like it would detrimentally affect me in the future. Now, people always say to that "Yeah, but just wait till you're older, and you'll see..." Personally, I don't like the idea that my personality and preferences will be overwritten by overzealous hormones and instinctive programming, and I also don't think it's very likely to occur. I think there are too many people who treat having kids like playing "the Sims" as is, though if its a well thought out decision by both parties, then they have ever right to have a kid. Not to say that 'accidents' are wrong, but I don't see such kids necessarily adding to the fiber of a strong relationship in the way my other example might. (Nothing against the kids themselves, of course, they can't help that they've been brought into the world.)

that's how i see it too and i'm often puzzled in front of most people's view of: "of course i want to have kids, who wouldn't? you don't? oh, you'll change with age". i respect the choice to have kids, but it's something i have no desire to do, i don't consider myself to be immature (not completely at least ) and i'd like my point of view to be respected.

 

[hyena]

@hilj: well, of course respect is due to any choice, ça va sans dire. But i don't think you should equate forecasts such as 'you'll change with age' with disrespect... maybe it's true and maybe it isn't, but it's not the same as saying, for example, 'you're being selfish', or, as the good stormfront.org people would have it, 'you're not doing your duty to your country and the white race'.

 

[Hiljainen]

@hyena: i see your point , but the aforementioned comment actually sounds like disrespect to me (even if not in all cases), i don't get offended by such comments, but i'd prefer to avoid them.
if someone has an opinion different from mine about something i don't say "you'll change your mind", it is of course possible that opinions change with time and experiences, but it doesn't compete to anyone to forecast that based on their own ideas.
what annoys me is the assumption that a particular idea, that didn't pop into my mind overnight like a shiny pink bubble, is silly just because it differs from most people or because i'm just 21.
i won't necessarily act the same/opposite as other people, so i see that kind of comment like kind of useless and index of close-mindedness.

 

[fireangel]

on the other hand, you mention 'normal' people as opposed to people affected with AIDS. but are there really 'normal' deaths? i never checked the figures on that, but i would say that the percentage of people who die in their sleep peacefully and with no prior illness are a small minority (i might be wrong). from what i understand, the large majority has to go through a period of awful suffering before they die, although the extent varies - eg living for 10 years with AIDS is going to make you way worse than living for 1 year with cardio-vascular insufficiency. so is there really a situation that doesn't warrant assistance of some kind, besides the heart attack that takes you away in 15 minutes when you're at the peak of your life?

I don´t know about the "normal" deaths or cases, but actually this is too far off for me right now. I wouldn´t want to discuss it.



Kovenant: Do you mean the video for "Killing Me Killing You"? I have always thought that this guy looks very dignified, and strong to deal with his life. I saw it that he loved and missed his wife, and one day decided to follow her. But I didn´t have the feeling he was depressed in the "negative" way, just extremely melancholic. And I luv the other vid, for "No-One There", this is so cute and nice

 

[Hiljainen]

@rincewind, UC: i wouldn't do that step so soon either, but you should do whatever makes you happy, so...good luck with everything

Rahv, Tal: I see what you are doing. You're just being completely logic. There is nothing wrong with that, but If I would look at the world as you do I would find it dull. I do not say that yours are, but at least I need to see things from a more dreaming point of view, hence my opinions.

if this makes you feel better then good for you but it just looks dull, it isn't in truth.

The first time you go bowling... you bowl a 50 and you think you should never ever bowl again to avoid the embarassment. WRONG! You should! Because it'll get better and the nature of the game is trial and error. You will improve. And there's no emotional connection to bowling, so what's going to really go wrong?

Another example:

The first time someone tells you a fence is electrified... you touch it out of curiousty and as a result think, Im never touching an electric fence again. RIGHT! All you do is cause yourself inevitable temporary pain. It's stupid. I wish I never touched that fence. It hurt.

i become a barely-human mess when a relationship i care for goes down the drain , but i actually see love much similar to bowling than to an electrical fence or the scary diving board, for me it has been trial and error and, unless i'm lucky, it will still be. i changed a lot since i was, say, 17, every experience taught me something and made me better, i had a share of suffering like everybody does, but every person i went out with taught me stuff, someone helped me recognize what i really don't want , someone else was a neverending source of wiseness that helped me turn from a silly teenager who couldn't even speak her mind to something better, and so on.
at the moment i found a great person, i doubt i'd have recognized it and that i'd be able to feel like this without the past.

 

[Kovenant84]

Kovenant: Do you mean the video for "Killing Me Killing You"? I have always thought that this guy looks very dignified, and strong to deal with his life. I saw it that he loved and missed his wife, and one day decided to follow her. But I didn´t have the feeling he was depressed in the "negative" way, just extremely melancholic. And I luv the other vid, for "No-One There", this is so cute and nice

Yeah, KMKY is the one I was thinking about. And while I admired his strength to keep going after losing his loved one, there was that melancholy that permeated the whole day that just made it seem very depressing for me. I guess that might be because it does strike a nerve and I could see myself in such a position, but that's just speculation. Oh, and part of the reason I found it so depressing in a negative connotation was the fact that it was essentially his sorrow that finally killed him, that slow eating away at the strength and dignity that is seen in his character.

~kov.

 

[Tritonus]

considering what i have witnessed as the younger generations have grown up underneath me (yes i am only 25, but im not naive, i can see how the teenagers and younger children are growing up and the effects of society is having on us/them), parents are letting their children get away with murder, letting them dress how they want, eat what they want, and children are learning to be less respectful towards people. heck, even adults are becoming less respectful towards other people.

society as a whole is sliding down a slippery slope where the old attributes of respect, courtesy, and the general treat people how you would like to be treated idea is being left in history. its quite sad really. i for one will not stoop to that level, and is something that i will be passing onto my own children when i have them.

Well, I guess it's all about teaching your kids to take responsibility for themself. You do it a bit in a time.
My parents have always given me an increasing amount of responsibility. I’m 16 now and I do pretty much anything I want to. They let me dress like I like, eat what I like, and no, I’m not getting away with murder. I have good grades, is secretary in the students’ council, I am NOT fat and am now silver medalist in my age group in Karate in Sweden.This is not cause I’m a sissy who dresses like I think people want me to and eats what I believe my parents want me to. Hell, I go to parties and stuff, but I never lay down puking in a bush. If my parents would not give me responsibility I would end up as many of my friends whom are told how to live by their parent and I would revolt. You cannot tell your kids how to live there lives, they must find out by themself.

edit: I'm not just boasting, I'm just still mad at Rahvin for indicating that I should be stupid.

if this makes you feel better then good for you but it just looks dull, it isn't in truth.

My life is dull and no, I'm not feeling good. I'm not happy with the way my life and the world is working. This is not about making me feel happy. Some people believe in god, some in love and some in maths (I do too).

 

[Dark_Silence]

Well, I guess it's all about teaching your kids to take responsibility for themself. You do it a bit in a time.
My parents have always given me an increasing amount of responsibility. I’m 16 now and I do pretty much anything I want to. They let me dress like I like, eat what I like, and no, I’m not getting away with murder. I have good grades, is secretary in the students’ council, I am NOT fat and am now silver medalist in my age group in Karate in Sweden.This is not cause I’m a sissy who dresses like I think people want me to and eats what I believe my parents want me to. Hell, I go to parties and stuff, but I never lay down puking in a bush. If my parents would not give me responsibility I would end up as many of my friends whom are told how to live by their parent and I would revolt. You cannot tell your kids how to live there lives, they must find out by themself.

This is what my parents did, execpt for the eating part ("you have to eat all your vegetables").
They thaught me some values like respect, the importance of school if you want to have a better job and better life later, and so on. They have never really forbidden me to do things, but I knew what I could do or what I coulndt.

I could always discuss about anything with my parents (be it drugs, sex,...). It is important to have good communication with your parents, and to know that you can ask them questions or help when you have a problem.

I believe that when young people have more liberty (yet not total liberties. there are things you must respect), they dont do as much stupid things as people who dont. Some people just start smoking od drinking a lot just because they are forbidden to do so...

I would educate my kids the same way I was, but not totally teh same. There are things were my parents made some mistakes and I want to avoid doing the same.

 

[hyena]

believe it or not, i congratulate UC and Ivana on their plans. commitment is a good thing, no matter the rest.

 

[Tritonus]

Well, liberty does not always have to mean an open relationchip with your parents. I have friends who are really open about that sort of things and have never needed to lift a finger and take no resposibility. I would never in life talk about sex with my parents, I do not even talk about feelings, so I think it's two different points. Different from person to person.

I've never been told about values and stuff either. I got to find stuff out myself, and hell. I'st fucking glad about that. I don't have the same values as my parents, and I think that is good, cause you do not feel as a carbon copy. I mean, we're from different generations. For example: We have a totally different view of homosexuality today and if my parents would have the same values as their own and so on we would still live in the 16.th century. I do not eat vegetables and I've only been told not to worry so much about my grades and just sleep well so they won't be a burden to me. There are also loads of stuff I would have done different if I was ever to be a parent, but fuck. I'm glad I'm indipendent.

 

[6 Stringed Fingers]

Parents should only serve the role as guides for their children. At first, though, they should impose certain basic values to their offsprings, for example, "do not kill other human beings and do not steal". But when the kids reach the age where they can think for themselves, parents should only offer their own point of view on things, and let the children do the analyzing themselves. Parents should also give their children different opinions, to allow better judgement. And most importantly, parents should teach their kids to have an open mind.

 

[Delirious]

6sf: i don't disagree with anything you write, but there is the problem of judging when someone actuallys is old/mature enough to make his or her own judgements. the problem being, i imagine, that the two parts involved seldomly agree.

take, for example, something i assume has occured outside sweden as well: guys searching out mostly (or so it seems) very young girls on the net to rape them. was it worth it because the girl in question got to choose herself (while her parents probably wouldn't have thought the same) that it was a good idea to hook up with some guy she met online a week ago? well, of course not, so while i basically am pro-freedom overall, i do see a problem with the "i'm so mature and grown-up" attitude many have in their early teens.

and there are, of course, overprotective parents as well.

 

[6 Stringed Fingers]

Delirious: That is indeed a problem. But it is also a parent's job to make sure his/her daughter knows the presence of internet sexual predators, how to spot them and protect herself from them, instead of banning her from the internet. (I don't think anyone wants to be raped, so she wouldn't choose that option.) The same can be said for smoking, drugs, alcohol, sex, and other problems. Parents can show their kids the pro's and con's of each of them, and help them reach a logical decision. Of course, if the kid is too headstrong and stupid then he/she still needs punishment.

 

[Dark_Silence]

I dont either speak of feelings with my parents. And I never learned how to do it. Now i cant find words to describe what I feel .
Now I do eat vegetables, but only the ones I like.

I could do what I want. But still, now that I live by myself, there are things I dont know how to do. Things the parents always did when I was a child.
Living without the parents at first is kind of hard. I mean, I never had to take an appointment somewhere myself, I never had to move my ass for official papers, I never had to make my food myself. Just had to have fun and do my school homework until one year ago...

When I moved alone, at first, I had the feeling that my parents wanted me to stay at home... But i am feeling a lot better living by myself, and not having the parents with me all the time...

 

[Tritonus]

6sf: I do not agree with everything you say. First, yes you shall not steel and say to people that they are ugly are something smaller kids need to hear, but if you are a parent and also a individual of your own age your opinions are not always the wright ones.
For example: Say my parents are against homosexual adoptions (they're not), they should not tell me that this is a bad thing and I should think so too, since this is something the world is still discussing. I'm totaly for it and I have for long been without knowing what my parents think about it.
My point is just that I do not think you shall adapt your children after your own prejudices.

What you say about the rapists. It happens, but it is still an extreme example. Again it comes to an increasing amount of responsibility. I would not let my 15 year old daughter do that. Increase their responsibility as they mature and don't let them do anything when they are 13/14, but by giving them a bit more at a time, they learn how to decide for themselfs and will hopefully not end up in situations like this. They won't get a chock either when they are suddenly 18 and all of a sudden have to everything by themselfs. Kids with overprotective parents are often "stupid"/irresponsible enough to make dumb decitions without letting their parents know about it.

Judith: How old are you?

 

[Dark_Silence]

I will turn 20 in October.