Christian Metal

all the things she said all the things she said all the sings she said!
 
Thoth-Amon said:
Fine. But my point is that the only "evidence" we have is clearly flawed and untrustworthy. So what reason do you have to believe it at all? And furthermore if you are just supposed to trust and believe something then how can you expect people brought up in other religions who simply trust and believe in something to become Christians? According to the Bible these people are going to fry in hell. Why? Because well they just happened to trust and believe in the wrong thing. And you got lucky becuase you just happened to trust and believe in the right thing. It's such baloney. Give some valid reasons and some compelling evidence that Christianity is true or ditch it.
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What evidence is flawed and untrustworthy? The Bible? How so? I believe that what may be conceived as errors or inaccuracy in the Bible is only from an English standpoint. If you were to actually look at Greek and Hebrew translations, you'd find passages have entirely different meanings than we might put to them in English. It's all about context with most holy books, and an error perceived is only one error perceived and nothing more. It doesn't negate the entire book. I personally believe the Bible's central theme and message has remained intact, although the numerous translations and human authorship have produced in it some confusion that can be understood when looking at the root language that the book was written in.

As for the believe or burn thing, I'm not a Puritan. I believe that some people may trust in a God who sent His son to die for their salvation and they will still be saved. What names they give to God or the messiah is irrelevent to me - what matters is the message. Inevitably, there has to be one true path, because simple logic dictates that all ways cannot be true. If you believe in Christ, you believe that God reveals Himself to people in different ways. Some will reject Him, and other will believe, but no one is condemned to Hell without a chance for salvation.

I have given several reasons for why I believe Christianity is a valid belief, but if I can't prove it's true beyond a shadow of doubt anymore than you can prove deism or that we'll both be alive tomorrow morning. All of your criticisms consist of "I don't believe that, therefore it must not be true". Have you ever heard the concept that those on the outside can't understand it and those on the inside can't explain it? It's easy to say why you believe something, but it's much harder to convince someone else of it, even when it may be the truth sometimes.
 
There are thousands of manuscripts in the supposed original language and they're all fucking different. How are we supposed to know which one is right?
 
PanzerKunt said:
That discussion ended like 2 pages ago.
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I was responding to the first line of the post above me because I didn't read the rest and I don't really care.
 
TaylorC said:
What evidence is flawed and untrustworthy? The Bible? How so? I believe that what may be conceived as errors or inaccuracy in the Bible is only from an English standpoint. If you were to actually look at Greek and Hebrew translations, you'd find passages have entirely different meanings than we might put to them in English. It's all about context with most holy books, and an error perceived is only one error perceived and nothing more. It doesn't negate the entire book. I personally believe the Bible's central theme and message has remained intact, although the numerous translations and human authorship have produced in it some confusion that can be understood when looking at the root language that the book was written in.
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There is so much evidence that I'm not even sure where to begin. How about this CLASSIC passage: "Samuel also said unto Saul, the Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king oer his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass" (1 Sam. 15:4). Well let's take a look at this passage shall we? God commands Saul to slay all of the Amalekites, man, woman and child. Hell, infants and animals even. Why? Because Amalek (i.e. the Amalekites) attacked the Israelites while they were leaving Egypt. Note that this event (i.e. Amalek's attack upon Israel) happened back in Exodus 17:8-14, HUNDREDS of years before Samuel and Saul were even alive. So basically God is commanding Saul to slaughter all of the Amalekites on the basis of something their ANCESTORS did hundreds of years before to the ANCESTORS of the Israelites. Is this even remotely just? Even if you say "well the Amalekites were still bad people and deserved to die anyway", fine, but what about the Amalekites infants? How can they POSSIBLY be bad and deserving of death? And the fact of the matter is that the passage says that they were to be put to death for something the Amalekites did hundreds of years ago, not because of how they were now. Furthermore, not only does this passage depict God as cruel and unjust but it also causes a theological contradiction with Ezekiel 18:19-20: "Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The sould that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall NOT bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him". In other words, only people who actually commit evil acts shall be punished for their evil acts, i.e. someone's sons or descendents shall not be punished for their fathers' or ancestors' crimes. Yet that is EXACTLY what God is doing in 1 Sam. 15:1-4. Why the discrepancy? It's easy. The author of 1 Samuel had a primitive tribal view of God that was not above having Him slaughter people for their ancestors' sins, while the author of Ezekiel had the opposite view.
This is a common strategy for people trying to defend the bible, they say, "oh you don't know Hebrew or Greek, when you read those original languages then there is no problem". This is a cop out because you know that most people can't read Hebrew or Greek and hence can't answer you on this. The fact is that the vast majority of these biblical problems or errors exist regardless of what translation you use, indicating of course that all of the translations cannot be wrong on that verse and hence the general idea of the verse is probably accurate regardless of the translation. My point is "how can you trust a book's central message when it is proven wrong in so many areas? How can you trust the bible in areas that cannot be tested (i.e. if heaven exists or not, or whether Jesus is god or not) when you cannot trust it in areas that can be tested (i.e. internal consistency, history, science, etc.).

TaylorC said:
As for the believe or burn thing, I'm not a Puritan. I believe that some people may trust in a God who sent His son to die for their salvation and they will still be saved. What names they give to God or the messiah is irrelevent to me - what matters is the message. Inevitably, there has to be one true path, because simple logic dictates that all ways cannot be true. If you believe in Christ, you believe that God reveals Himself to people in different ways. Some will reject Him, and other will believe, but no one is condemned to Hell without a chance for salvation.
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Well you may think that what names you give to God and the Messiah are irrelevant but that is NOT what the Bible teaches: "Neither is there salvation in ANY OTHER; for there is NONE OTHER NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

TaylorC said:
I have given several reasons for why I believe Christianity is a valid belief, but if I can't prove it's true beyond a shadow of doubt anymore than you can prove deism or that we'll both be alive tomorrow morning. All of your criticisms consist of "I don't believe that, therefore it must not be true". Have you ever heard the concept that those on the outside can't understand it and those on the inside can't explain it? It's easy to say why you believe something, but it's much harder to convince someone else of it, even when it may be the truth sometimes.
Click to expand...

You are right I cannot prove deism. However I feel there are some compelling reasons to believe in the existence of a deity (as I'm sure you know) while at the same time there are compelling reasons to reject believing that the Bible is God's word. So while my opinions cannot be proven, there is some good reasons for believing in them and it cannot be proven wrong. The bible on the other hand can be proven false in numerous areas and hence untrustworthy.
 
Necuratul said:
There are thousands of manuscripts in the supposed original language and they're all fucking different. How are we supposed to know which one is right?
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You should read Ehrman's new book "Misqouting Jesus" he discusses this issue. It's true we cannot reconstruct the bible (or the new testament specifically) with 100% accuracy but personally I think the manuscript evidence we have and the textual critical methods employed in the study thereof can get us pretty darn close to what was originally written.
 
It's a good book. Not the best, but an interesting read. Definitely better than The Da Vinci Code at least.
 
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