Continued Creativity....

[Lateralus14]

Mike as an acoustic singer-songwriter...do want

 

[Alteredmindeath]

Mike as an acoustic singer-songwriter...do want

that would be lame, Opeth is what makes him a unique songwriter.

 

[wut wut]

^ Yea bruv shredding, cheesy lyrics, female vocals, super mario solos, and open E riffs are innovative to teh max m/ -_- m/

What does tuning and the sex of a guest vocalist have to do with creativity?

What shredding? You want to hear some shredding? Go listen to some Dream Theater. Go listen to Children of Bodom. THAT is shredding. Fred's guitar work on Watershed is nice and relaxed by comparison.

The lyrics on Watershed aren't cheesy, either. Heir Apparent has to be some of Mike's best lyrics. Burden's lyrics are moving, and Hex Omega is positively creepy.

 

[Nasty-Fire]

Actually he didn't mention tuning, but all your points are totally valid. But he's a bit right too, I mean partially... it's hard to deny.

 

[wut wut]

Hard to deny that Opeth is no longer innovative? Well, they've been around for 15 years and have 9 albums, so I guess that's true.

Innovation isn't the same thing as creativity, though. Opeth has stuck to the songwriting pattern established on Still Life, for the most part, but they're still changing things up and releasing great albums.

I'm not a fan of the mindset that a group has to innovate with every new record. First of all, if you have that mindset, then your music selection is going to be extremely limited, because it's a very rare group that's able to manage this after 15+ years into their career. Most groups that change their sound later on don't really innovate, rather they incorporate other existing types of music into their established sound (see Metallica, Porcupine Tree, Muse, Anathema, Opeth).

Second-of-ly, nobody out there makes songs like Opeth does (believe me, I've looked), so since their approach to metal is so unique anyway, I don't see the problem with them sticking to what they've established.

 

[Nasty-Fire]

Watershed's pretty much the creative highpoint of Opeth's career so far, so I don't think we have to start worrying about a decline just yet.

^ Yea bruv shredding, cheesy lyrics, female vocals, super mario solos, and open E riffs are innovative to teh max m/ -_- m/

[...] it's hard to deny.

It's hard to deny that what he said isn't present on Watershed, but you can still find Opeth innovative or creative even with those elements described as pejorative. I do. I think the Super Mario solos are damn great, the Open E riffs (which song? Hessian Peel?) are fine the when they are presented; some people might love female vocals; lyrics on some songs are just great (Heir Apparent), and shredding well... there I agree. I also believe Watershed is far from the "creative highpoint" and I think it's quite obvious. There's however still a lot of creativity and it's still very fucking nice to listen. The difference with Watershed is just more of a contrast, it is more obvious.

 

[wut wut]

It's hard to deny that what he said isn't present on Watershed

Why even make a point about that? It's hard to deny that there's female vocals? Well, obviously. What's being denied is the claim that those elements make Watershed less creative, not that those elements aren't present.

 

[Nasty-Fire]

What makes something creative is subjective and this is my opinion. I was more refering to the "cheesy" lyrics which is the only debatable subject in the lot. Whatever dude, I just wanted to share that I agreed with the other guy that those elements weren't very positive.

 

[wut wut]

So, does anybody on these forums actually like Watershed? Other than weird fanboys, of course.

Funny how the Porcupine Tree and Dream Theater forums have more positive things to say about the album than Opeth's own fanbase.

 

[Nasty-Fire]

I adore Watershed.

 

[wut wut]

As do I. The only shredding on the album that I don't think fits is on Hex Omega. The second chorus breakdown on that song doesn't really work.

 

[Lateralus14]

I had a wall of text typed up but I deleted it all at the thought of another Watershed sux/is teh awesome thread.

 

[Space Butler]

Watershed is teh awesome

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

What makes something creative is subjective and this is my opinion. I was more refering to the "cheesy" lyrics which is the only debatable subject in the lot.

Is it, though? I still don't know what he means by "Super Mario solos." The middle part in Lotus Eater? Also, I'm not a fan of that E-only blastbeat part in Heir Apparent. Not creative, and very sub-par for the Opeth songwriting standard. Leave that stuff to crappy thrash metal bands.

So, does anybody on these forums actually like Watershed?

Watershed is actually one of my least favorite Opeth albums, along with MAYH. I still like it, though.

 

[Lateralus14]

I think like most people that seem to dislike Watershed, I like it but only think it's not up to the standards set by the 8 previous albums.

We've had way too many arguments about Opeth/PT lyrics here so let's not touch that lyric thing again as its supposedly debatable. The female vocal thing also doesn't mean a lack of creativity, I only mentioned it because while it isn't a bad thing, it isn't super creative either like some people seem to think (a lot of people connect female vocals in metal to avant-garde metal in certain cases). The super mario solo is also not bad, I just think it gets too much praise for a part that really doesn't fit perfectly in the context of the song.

So yea, that's several points and I have not said Watershed is bad in any of them, simply overrated. The points where I feel there is a regression is in the shredding solos and some of the riffs. The solos are obvious to anyone, there's plenty of shredders that could produce that sound. Just because it isn't John Petrucci doesn't mean it's not shredding (I believe someone made that point, what a fucking dumb thing to say imo). I like the shredding solos but I think its still a regression because it means adopting a style that a myriad of metal bands use whereas the old style was a unique mixture of prog rock solos and metal guitar tone. Again this is not a bad thing universally, it's only bad given the circumstances because Opeth could retain the unique nature of their solos - as is evidenced in The Lotus Eater on the very same album - but chose to go where hundreds of metal bands have gone before. As far as the riffs go, it may not bug a normal listener at all, but anyone who has played songs from multiple Opeth albums should be unable to deny an overall regression in the complexity and uniqueness of the riffs. There are exceptions, such as the leads before the first solo on the Lotus Eater, the instrumental riff around 1:30ish in the same song, or the complex riffing after the solo in Hessian Peel, but overall there is far more usage of open E chugging, power chords, and octaves in these songs than in the previous riff-oriented albums. I like Heir Apparent as a song, but as far as the riffing goes, there's no denying it looks like Smoke on the Water in comparison to some riffing in The Leper Affinity, The Amen Corner, The Moor, Ghost of Perdition, Master's Apprentices, and many other Opeth tracks.

Then there's that whole issue of atmosphere which is also supposedly debatable so let's not go there.

Consider this a shit thread now, my bad guys.

 

[bathory...]

First of all, while I still think Watershed wasn't as good as Deliverence, Ghost Reveries or Damnation I still think it was a desent album by Opeth standards (still extremely high). I'm not saying this to argue about it, but to show where I stand as far as whether or not Opeth has begun to drop off yet.

I think when most bands begin to decline it's because their sound either gets old (I think Opeth is past the point of this being an option) a member passes (let's hope not) they want to be more commercially successful (I don't think so). The last option that I see is that they get run into the ground with relentless touring and recording schedules with little time to rest. From what I've heard Mikael seems to be taking time to spend time with his family and rest a little for a time. Considering how hard he worked the last what 20 years? he definetely deserves it, but I also think it allows him time to be inspired. So therefore, no I don't think there will be a drop-off in creativity and I'll proboably enjoy anything that he's involved in.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

As far as the Watershed solos go, I don't really get a shredder vibe from them. Besides, if you think those solos are shredding, there's quite a few from Still Life that I can recall that would also fit the bill. However, my favorite band is Symphony X, so my ears might be a little biased on what defines shredding and what does not. I really do like the way Mikael has soloed on most albums - completely tasteful licks that fit the song. But a little fancy guitar work is okay by me... didn't Mikael do some tapping in a solo or two on Ghost Reveries?

With Heir Apparent, I like the song in general - the only part I don't like is the thrashy blastbeat low E part. It just seems like Opeth could be far more creative. The other riffs and melodies are awesome.

 

[Lateralus14]

Honestly I think there's two kinds of shredding, the really awesome intense kind that's wild and all over the place that you get with Morbid Angel or Slayer, and then the robotic, "hey man look how many notes per second I can do" kind that you get with Dream Theater and Symphony X. TBH none of Opeth's stuff is quite the same as Fred still puts some tasteful parts in his robotic shreds (i.e. the awesome palm muted parts) and Mike's/Peter's solo in White Cluster which was the only one even close to shredding, was just nothing on Trey Azagthoth or Kerry King.

I don't think most shredding sounds dreadful really (though the light speed shit w/ Yngwie or MAB is well...yea dreadful is the word), I just respected Opeth for having a different style that was more melodic and feeling and for producing some of my favorite guitar solos of all time (I.E. The Funeral Portrait's two solos are right up there with Shine On You Crazy Diamond and the gang for me).

Guess I just thought they were "above" shredding and generic metal riffs.

 

[Nasty-Fire]

With Heir Apparent, I like the song in general - the only part I don't like is the thrashy blastbeat low E part.

That is not a blast beat, and hoepfully, while the riff itself is very basic (open E all along) I believe the lyrics balance it up. Seriously, the best lyrics on the album are located in these moments.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_beat]

And the solo in Hessian Peel with the following riff are simply genius. One of the best parts of the whole album which itself is not so bad. Can't wait to hear what's next. Really.

 

[wut wut]

I think like most people that seem to dislike Watershed, I like it but only think it's not up to the standards set by the 8 previous albums.

We've had way too many arguments about Opeth/PT lyrics here so let's not touch that lyric thing again as its supposedly debatable. The female vocal thing also doesn't mean a lack of creativity, I only mentioned it because while it isn't a bad thing, it isn't super creative either like some people seem to think (a lot of people connect female vocals in metal to avant-garde metal in certain cases). The super mario solo is also not bad, I just think it gets too much praise for a part that really doesn't fit perfectly in the context of the song.

So yea, that's several points and I have not said Watershed is bad in any of them, simply overrated. The points where I feel there is a regression is in the shredding solos and some of the riffs. The solos are obvious to anyone, there's plenty of shredders that could produce that sound. Just because it isn't John Petrucci doesn't mean it's not shredding (I believe someone made that point, what a fucking dumb thing to say imo). I like the shredding solos but I think its still a regression because it means adopting a style that a myriad of metal bands use whereas the old style was a unique mixture of prog rock solos and metal guitar tone. Again this is not a bad thing universally, it's only bad given the circumstances because Opeth could retain the unique nature of their solos - as is evidenced in The Lotus Eater on the very same album - but chose to go where hundreds of metal bands have gone before. As far as the riffs go, it may not bug a normal listener at all, but anyone who has played songs from multiple Opeth albums should be unable to deny an overall regression in the complexity and uniqueness of the riffs. There are exceptions, such as the leads before the first solo on the Lotus Eater, the instrumental riff around 1:30ish in the same song, or the complex riffing after the solo in Hessian Peel, but overall there is far more usage of open E chugging, power chords, and octaves in these songs than in the previous riff-oriented albums. I like Heir Apparent as a song, but as far as the riffing goes, there's no denying it looks like Smoke on the Water in comparison to some riffing in The Leper Affinity, The Amen Corner, The Moor, Ghost of Perdition, Master's Apprentices, and many other Opeth tracks.

Then there's that whole issue of atmosphere which is also supposedly debatable so let's not go there.

Consider this a shit thread now, my bad guys.

Awesome post. This is the first time I've seen a person describe their problems with the album so clearly.