Controversial opinions on metal

[MrTagoMago]

There are plenty I enjoy, but there's a large wing of crap too. Hex Enduction Hour is one of the worst non-metal albums I've ever heard.

Theres a large wing of crap from pretty much any genre.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I mean it's a whole sub-sub-style of post-punk that tries its hardest to be crap, try-hard art-school garbage with no riffs. "Zolo" stuff, I enjoy. Outsider experimental stuff like Pere Ubu, I enjoy. Punchy political bands that are maybe a bit repetitive but to the point like Au Pairs and Gang of Four, I enjoy. Artsy stuff that's actually more progressively composed like Dog Faced Hermans, I enjoy. The Fall can fuck off, less is not more when you regularly have several minute songs.

 

[CiG]

Nah, post-punk is often too pretentious and repetitive.

I can't relate to this characterisation at all.

 

[MrTagoMago]

I mean it's a whole sub-sub-style of post-punk that tries its hardest to be crap, try-hard art-school garbage with no riffs. "Zolo" stuff, I enjoy. Outsider experimental stuff like Pere Ubu, I enjoy. Punchy political bands that are maybe a bit repetitive but to the point like Au Pairs and Gang of Four, I enjoy. Artsy stuff that's actually more progressively composed like Dog Faced Hermans, I enjoy. The Fall can fuck off, less is not more when you regularly have several minute songs.

Ive never listened to The fall but theres more to music than riffs.

 

[alex76]

99.9% of punk in all its forms sucks!

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I can't relate to this characterisation at all.

Not that these guys are much like The Fall, but:



Metronome drumming, uber-repetitive bassline that rarely changes, songs may be short individually but a full album is nearly intolerable. There's a lot of post-punk like this.

Ive never listened to The fall but theres more to music than riffs.

Not in rock-based music.

 

[MrTagoMago]

Not that these guys are much like The Fall, but:



Metronome drumming, uber-repetitive bassline that rarely changes, songs may be short individually but a full album is nearly intolerable. There's a lot of post-punk like this.



Not in rock-based music.

Even in rock based music theres more to it than just riffs.

 

[MrTagoMago]

99.9% of punk in all its forms sucks!

Post punk is hardly even punk for the most part.

 

[CiG]

Post-punk intentionally uses repetition. So that doesn't really convince me.

 

[Einherjar86]

On the whole yeah if you include all related sub-genres that aren't prog metal. imo some of the classic prog rock bands, especially Camel and Genesis, are pretty fuckin bland though.

I've seen a lot of people describe Genesis as bland, but then I've also caught a lot of people thinking that Genesis begins with Phil Collins and Duke - but that's where Genesis ends, for me. Between Trespass and Lamb, Genesis released some of the most structured and musically interesting, and occasionally even soothing, prog rock I think I've ever heard. They have a really incredible range.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Can someone tell me why British Steel seems to be regarded as the most iconic or important Judas Priest album? I know it has Breaking the law and Living after midnight but fans seem to prefer Sad Wings and Stained class plus Screaming for Vengence sold more copies i think and had their most well known hit.

The answer is it's their most accessible album. Obviously, it's not close to being their best.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

On the whole yeah if you include all related sub-genres that aren't prog metal. imo some of the classic prog rock bands, especially Camel and Genesis, are pretty fuckin bland though.

Camel owns you fool. First four albums are absolute top-tier prog.

 

[Oblivious Maximus]

I've seen a lot of people describe Genesis as bland, but then I've also caught a lot of people thinking that Genesis begins with Phil Collins and Duke - but that's where Genesis ends, for me. Between Trespass and Lamb, Genesis released some of the most structured and musically interesting, and occasionally even soothing, prog rock I think I've ever heard. They have a really incredible range.

I still haven't heard the first two Genesis albums. I don't wanna say its because Collins and Hackett aren't on them although perhaps subconsciously that might have something to do with it

Whenever I hear people call Genesis bland its mostly the post-Gabriel/Hackett era which for what its worth I completely disagree with. Obviously those later albums aren't on the same level as their 70's output but there's interesting stuff on them. Nursery Cryme up to Wind and Wuthering is some of the finest music ever recorded. When it comes to concept albums, The Lamb to me is the apex.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

I mean it's a whole sub-sub-style of post-punk that tries its hardest to be crap, try-hard art-school garbage with no riffs. "Zolo" stuff, I enjoy. Outsider experimental stuff like Pere Ubu, I enjoy. Punchy political bands that are maybe a bit repetitive but to the point like Au Pairs and Gang of Four, I enjoy. Artsy stuff that's actually more progressively composed like Dog Faced Hermans, I enjoy. The Fall can fuck off, less is not more when you regularly have several minute songs.

I've seen you talk about riffs and judge music almost entirely on them a number of times since I joined. Is this you being facetious or do you actually feel this way? I've wanted to ask that for a while.

I'm talking about in a metal context mainly. I'm fairly certain that you judge other music by different criteria based on the non-metal mixtape.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Even in rock based music theres more to it than just riffs.

Provide examples.

Post-punk intentionally uses repetition. So that doesn't really convince me.

Not really that true. I mean, it's not 5-riffs-a-minute like some metal can be, but a lot of the classic bands had a higher density of ideas than stuff like in that Pylon song above or a lot of The Fall's stuff or whatever else.

I've seen a lot of people describe Genesis as bland, but then I've also caught a lot of people thinking that Genesis begins with Phil Collins and Duke - but that's where Genesis ends, for me. Between Trespass and Lamb, Genesis released some of the most structured and musically interesting, and occasionally even soothing, prog rock I think I've ever heard. They have a really incredible range.

Genesis has individual songs that I think are great, but I think there's too much balladry and whatnot trying to enjoy any of their albums on the whole. Which isn't to say soft = bad, King Crimson has some amazing more mellow or folky stuff, VDGG touched on a kind of minimal/ambient prog at points that was really unique, I love classic Yes, but Genesis kinda drops the explicit progishness. Like, I almost think it's silly that bands like Marillion are considered "neo-prog" and often inherently poppier/inferior when their stuff really isn't that different from what Genesis always did. But I'll admit that they have their moments, and that I do see potential for them to grow on me (although it's been going in the opposite direction for a while).

Camel owns you fool. First four albums are absolute top-tier prog.

I enjoy the Snow Goose, the others are boring af.

I've seen you talk about riffs and judge music almost entirely on them a number of times since I joined. Is this you being facetious or do you actually feel this way? I've wanted to ask that for a while.

I'm talking about in a metal context mainly. I'm fairly certain that you judge other music by different criteria based on the non-metal mixtape.

When I say riffs I don't necessarily mean typical rock-derived guitar riffs. I use it more as a catch-all for any repeated rhythmic and melodic unit. For my personal enjoyment, rock music must do more than simply contain riffs, it must use them as a primary way of driving the progression of the song, as opposed to (for one example) as a backdrop to support a singer. Even when judging non-metal, riffing is something I consider very important, which is why I tend to prefer funk/soul and heavier rock-based genres over other non-metal.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Thanks for the explanation. You make your assessments sound much simpler than that sometimes, but that seems pretty fair.

 

[MrTagoMago]

Provide examples.



Not really that true. I mean, it's not 5-riffs-a-minute like some metal can be, but a lot of the classic bands had a higher density of ideas than stuff like in that Pylon song above or a lot of The Fall's stuff or whatever else.



Genesis has individual songs that I think are great, but I think there's too much balladry and whatnot trying to enjoy any of their albums on the whole. Which isn't to say soft = bad, King Crimson has some amazing more mellow or folky stuff, VDGG touched on a kind of minimal/ambient prog at points that was really unique, I love classic Yes, but Genesis kinda drops the explicit progishness. Like, I almost think it's silly that bands like Marillion are considered "neo-prog" and often inherently poppier/inferior when their stuff really isn't that different from what Genesis always did. But I'll admit that they have their moments, and that I do see potential for them to grow on me (although it's been going in the opposite direction for a while).



I enjoy the Snow Goose, the others are boring af.



When I say riffs I don't necessarily mean typical rock-derived guitar riffs. I use it more as a catch-all for any repeated rhythmic and melodic unit. For my personal enjoyment, rock music must do more than simply contain riffs, it must use them as a primary way of driving the progression of the song, as opposed to (for one example) as a backdrop to support a singer. Even when judging non-metal, riffing is something I consider very important, which is why I tend to prefer funk/soul and heavier rock-based genres over other non-metal.

Whats your opinion on jazz?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Well yeah it would look silly if I said "Good riffs, 6/10" rather than "Good song, 6/10" every time, and under certain cases an amazing singer or story can push an average rock song riff-wise into something great. I do enjoy some ambient and whatnot that has nothing to do with riffing just on account of the atmosphere it sets, but that's harder to define for me, and finding stuff that I really enjoy in that style is more difficult.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Whats your opinion on jazz?

Something I sometimes enjoy, but don't listen to frequently enough to call myself a fan. I dislike most free jazz, "spiritual jazz" I think is often unbearably cheesy and lame (like that Kamasi Washington album holy fuck is that boring), I don't understand music theory to really understand modal jazz but I think some stuff like Maiden Voyage is gorgeous, jazz-funk is often nice but I find myself listening to just regular funk instead. Overall from listening to various stuff here and there, things under the bebop umbrella in one form or another (usually hard bop or post-bop at least per RYM) tends to be my favorite, I guess it's a little more riff-y/structured than other forms of jazz, but without double-dipping into funk, and with the improv stuff constrained enough such that I can get my fix without getting too much.

 

[EchoForever]

post your favorite jazz release