Controversial opinions on metal

[MrTagoMago]

What's wrong with Manilla Road anyway? I can't take anyone seriously if they try to act like they're terrible.

Id assume they just dont like the vocals.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Horrible songwriting. Their arrangements are often very repetitive and repeat basic, short riffs for far too long. The vocal melodies tend to resemble nursery rhymes in their repetition and structure as well. Sometimes they put in the effort (The Fires of Mars is a great song), usually they don't.

 

[The Butt]

Nope, they're shit. Tell me specifically what makes them great.

Good songwriters. Everything comes together despite average musicianship and instrumental proficiency to form a cohesive, great whole.

You just don't like them because "muh riffs" or something stupid. In which case again I tell you to suck dicks in hell.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Horrible songwriting. Their arrangements are often very repetitive and repeat basic, short riffs for far too long. The vocal melodies tend to resemble nursery rhymes in their repetition and structure as well. Sometimes they put in the effort (The Fires of Mars is a great song), usually they don't.

The compositional traits that you mentioned can be applied to a lot of songs by bands that I know that you like, but I appreciate the explantion. Their songs aren't markedly more simplistic than a many other traditional metal bands and are often more ambitious than you seem to be willing to admit.

In terms of being an influential underground figurehead, they're also one of the more definitive bands. I'm going to just save you the trouble of disputing this by highlighting the fact that Leif Edling cites them as an influence on his music and has listened to them since Crystal Logic came out. He wrote the liner notes for the most recent edition of the album and has mentioned how he signed with Black Dragon Records to release Epicus Doomicus Metallicus because he wanted to be on the same label as Manilla Road.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The compositional traits that you mentioned can be applied to a lot of songs by bands that I know that you like, but I appreciate the explantion. Their songs aren't markedly more simplistic than a many other traditional metal bands and are often more ambitious than you seem to be willing to admit.

In terms of being an influential underground figurehead, they're also one of the more definitive bands. I'm going to just save you the trouble of disputing this by highlighting the fact that Leif Edling cites them as an influence on his music and has listened to them since Crystal Logic came out. He wrote the liner notes for the most recent edition of the album and has mentioned how he signed with Black Dragon Records to release Epicus Doomicus Metallicus because he wanted to be on the same label as Manilla Road.

Care to give examples of bands you know I like? Crystal Logic is far more repetitious than even stuff like Battle Cry, and Omen at least has the good sense to keep most songs in the 3-5 minute range. They're ambitious in that "epic" is clearly their goal, but half-ass it in execution.

Have I attacked Manilla Road's influence? I don't deny their influence, although I'd argue that most USPM ultimately wasn't that influential in the grand scheme of metal (it's a niche market), so it's kind of irrelevant.

 

[Serjeant Grumbles]

Nope, they're shit. Tell me specifically what makes them great.

If we're going to talk specifically about Emperor, it would be futile to explain what makes them great since you apparently think they don't have riffs - an opinion so off base it's managed somehow to wander from Busch Stadium to Wrigley Field.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

A really good example of a band that I know that you like with a good number of pretty simplistic, rocking songs and singalong melodies is early Manowar. I personally don't have a problem with that element of their music as I happen to be a huge fan of Manowar and listen to them almost every day when I drive. I don't suppose that you hate all of those Manowar songs either.

There are definitely Manilla Road songs that have varied song structure and don't have upbeat vocal parts that are fun to sing along to like nursery rhymes. Crystal Logic has a good balance of both sides of their music. The albums that came after it trend towards having more varied songwriting on them.

And no, you haven't attacked Manilla Road's influence. I was just making it clear in advance that you would be wrong if you attempted to do so after I stated that they were influential. Their scope of influence is more than just other traditional metal bands too.

 

[Krow]

IIT: We're still pretending HBB isn't trolling.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

If we're going to talk specifically about Emperor, it would be futile to explain what makes them great since you apparently think they don't have riffs - an opinion so off base it's managed somehow to wander from Busch Stadium to Wrigley Field.

lol. The problem with them specifically is that they fill all available space with their riffs on the first album, and use them basically just following the same progression of the keys. Metal that doesn't emphasize rhythm guitar is a waste.

A really good example of a band that I know that you like with a good number of pretty simplistic, rocking songs and singalong melodies is early Manowar. I personally don't have a problem with that element of their music as I happen to be a huge fan of Manowar and listen to them almost every day when I drive. I don't suppose that you hate all of those Manowar songs either.

There are definitely Manilla Road songs that have varied song structure and don't have upbeat vocal parts that are fun to sing along to like nursery rhymes. Crystal Logic has a good balance of both sides of their music. The albums that came after it trend towards having more varied songwriting on them.

And no, you haven't attacked Manilla Road's influence. I was just making it clear in advance that you would be wrong if you attempted to do so after I stated that they were influential. Their scope of influence is more than just other traditional metal bands too.

Manowar is simplistic, although not arranged as simplistically as Manilla Road. It'll be easier to explain when I get home and can point out specific examples, but one major difference is that at least Eric Adams doesn't usually follow the melody of the riffs. The guitars are simplistic but keep things open for his voice and silly bombastic drum fills. Then take a song like Crystal Logic's title track, where the main riff of the first half repeats probably more than 50 times, and Mark sings in lockstep with it almost the whole way. Manilla Road's songs sound like babby's first songwriting attempts.

Manilla Road would probably be in, what, the top 20 most influential trad metal bands at best? I mean that's something but most of their influence comes from all the retro bands that popped up over a decade after Manilla Road's acclaimed period. Maybe I'd give them the bronze metal with respect to USPM in terms of influence, and only if Manowar isn't considered USPM.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

When I mentioned Manilla Road's influence, I specifically stated that I was talking about underground bands only. Comparing them to Manowar doesn't really make sense in that case as no one is claiming that Manilla Road is more influential than major label metal acts.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Manowar's influential material was performed entirely while they were still independent, but this particular argument seems pointless. "Band of modest influence found to be influential when looking exclusively at bands of similar or less influence, news at 11"

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Manowar being on Atlantic, Universal and Geffen and becoming extremely famous definitely plays a part in how well-known their discography is in general. The argument that albums were released before they signed a major label contract is a bad one. They released their first major label album in the 1980s anyway.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

By that logic, Metal Up Your Ass wasn't hugely influential in the underground because of Enter Sandman.

Manowar influenced tons of other important underground bands, an obvious one being Viking-era Bathory. Manilla Road influenced others too, but they're better known now thanks to the internet more than anything.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Nobody said a band can't be influential before they're on a major label. You, however, stated that Manowar's early music was released independently as if that somehow invalidates them being a major label band. They clearly became much more popular after signing with a major label, which boosted the sales of their albums in general.

As I clearly stated earlier, this a bad argument for that reason.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Who is talking about album sales? For one, Manowar sold poorly even when they were signed to various major labels. Outside of Germany their sales have been fairly crap afaik. (Fates Warning charted higher in America repeatedly despite being on Metal Blade for most/all of their career). For another, the people that get influenced by others and go on to make influential works themselves are not the people that pick up a band when they hit a major label. They're the people that are deeply involved with the scene and know all the happenings before any mainstream sources catch on (which is why you have cases like Watchtower's demos being plagiarized by other bands like Sieges Even before Watchtower even got their second album out).

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Manowar's continuing influence is definitely at least partially related to their relative commercial exposure. You'd have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Manowar's continuing influence is definitely at least partially related to their relative commercial exposure. You'd have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

What continuing influence? They shot their creative load back in 1984. Their exposure for the last decade has been roughly "I can't believe they still even bother trying".

You'd have to be an idiot for making claims with no rationale behind them. I guess Exodus' influence is thanks to Impact is Imminent and not their bootlegs circa 1983-84, Slayer's influence is thanks to Seasons in the Abyss more than it is Hell Awaits, Queensryche's influence thanks to Empire more than the S/T or The Warning, Helloween's influence thanks to Pink Bubbles Go Ape more than Keeper of the Seven Keys, Morbid Angel's influence thanks to Domination rather than Altars of Madness and the demos, etc etc etc.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Do I really have to explain the concept of continuing influence to you?

That means that a band continues to influence newer bands for an extended period of time. It doesn't have anything to do with making new influential music. This is a pretty basic concept that I shouldn't have to explain to an adult who is trying to discuss music on the internet.

Manowar releases a handful of good albums. Then they sign with a major label and become more famous. Due to their fame, their early music is reissued many times and people buy it because it's widely available, resulting in many new fans who may go on to make Manowar-influenced music.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Their continuing influence is a product of the popularity of their early material in countries like Greece that have a disproportionate appreciation for classic 80s trad/power, catalyzed by the internet. The exact same reason Manilla Road has "continuing influence". It has little to do with Manowar's major label album sales reaching a greater audience.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

I'm absolutely stumped by the fact that I had to explain that a band can release an album that continues to influence music for many years even if their newer music does not.