Controversial opinions on metal

[HamburgerBoy]

Manowar's influential material was performed entirely while they were still independent, but this particular argument seems pointless. "Band of modest influence found to be influential when looking exclusively at bands of similar or less influence, news at 11"

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Manowar being on Atlantic, Universal and Geffen and becoming extremely famous definitely plays a part in how well-known their discography is in general. The argument that albums were released before they signed a major label contract is a bad one. They released their first major label album in the 1980s anyway.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

By that logic, Metal Up Your Ass wasn't hugely influential in the underground because of Enter Sandman.

Manowar influenced tons of other important underground bands, an obvious one being Viking-era Bathory. Manilla Road influenced others too, but they're better known now thanks to the internet more than anything.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Nobody said a band can't be influential before they're on a major label. You, however, stated that Manowar's early music was released independently as if that somehow invalidates them being a major label band. They clearly became much more popular after signing with a major label, which boosted the sales of their albums in general.

As I clearly stated earlier, this a bad argument for that reason.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Who is talking about album sales? For one, Manowar sold poorly even when they were signed to various major labels. Outside of Germany their sales have been fairly crap afaik. (Fates Warning charted higher in America repeatedly despite being on Metal Blade for most/all of their career). For another, the people that get influenced by others and go on to make influential works themselves are not the people that pick up a band when they hit a major label. They're the people that are deeply involved with the scene and know all the happenings before any mainstream sources catch on (which is why you have cases like Watchtower's demos being plagiarized by other bands like Sieges Even before Watchtower even got their second album out).

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Manowar's continuing influence is definitely at least partially related to their relative commercial exposure. You'd have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Manowar's continuing influence is definitely at least partially related to their relative commercial exposure. You'd have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

What continuing influence? They shot their creative load back in 1984. Their exposure for the last decade has been roughly "I can't believe they still even bother trying".

You'd have to be an idiot for making claims with no rationale behind them. I guess Exodus' influence is thanks to Impact is Imminent and not their bootlegs circa 1983-84, Slayer's influence is thanks to Seasons in the Abyss more than it is Hell Awaits, Queensryche's influence thanks to Empire more than the S/T or The Warning, Helloween's influence thanks to Pink Bubbles Go Ape more than Keeper of the Seven Keys, Morbid Angel's influence thanks to Domination rather than Altars of Madness and the demos, etc etc etc.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Do I really have to explain the concept of continuing influence to you?

That means that a band continues to influence newer bands for an extended period of time. It doesn't have anything to do with making new influential music. This is a pretty basic concept that I shouldn't have to explain to an adult who is trying to discuss music on the internet.

Manowar releases a handful of good albums. Then they sign with a major label and become more famous. Due to their fame, their early music is reissued many times and people buy it because it's widely available, resulting in many new fans who may go on to make Manowar-influenced music.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Their continuing influence is a product of the popularity of their early material in countries like Greece that have a disproportionate appreciation for classic 80s trad/power, catalyzed by the internet. The exact same reason Manilla Road has "continuing influence". It has little to do with Manowar's major label album sales reaching a greater audience.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

I'm absolutely stumped by the fact that I had to explain that a band can release an album that continues to influence music for many years even if their newer music does not.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Their continuing influence is a product of the popularity of their early material in countries like Greece that have a disproportionate appreciation for classic 80s trad/power, catalyzed by the internet. The exact same reason Manilla Road has "continuing influence". It has little to do with Manowar's major label album sales reaching a greater audience.

How come you all of a sudden understand the basic term "continuing influence" and can use it properly despite not being able to fathom it a few minutes ago?

Their major label releases sold well enough to hit the album charts in several countries. Unless you can provide some correlation between their influence and your claims, it seems pretty obvious that people still know Manowar because they're famous. Newer bands are still influenced by them because people still know who they are due to their relative fame.

I have statistics on my side. I would love to know what proof you can provide that I'm wrong.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

That's not even what this argument is about. You made a specific claim that CD sales and major label status are significant on the ability to influence the underground. I'm disputing this on the basis that influence on the underground during the 80s was primarily driven through tape trading and zines.

EDIT: irt your earlier post

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Their major label releases sold well enough to hit the album charts in several countries. Unless you can provide some correlation between their influence and your claims, it seems pretty obvious that people still know Manowar because they're famous. Newer bands are still influenced by them because people still know who they are due to their relative fame.

I have statistics on my side. I would love to know what proof you can provide that I'm wrong.

Are independent label bands that hit album charts also disqualified? And who cares about Manowar's charts? They had a decent hit in the UK because those folk are apparently patriotic. They're successful in Germany because those people probably drink too much beer. You completely disregarded my point about Slayer, Exodus, Helloween, etc because you know it disproves your bullshit. Any band influenced by Manowar today is almost certainly also going to be aware of Manilla Road; you've provided no way of separating the two based on major label releases.

You've provided no statistics that prove your claim. All you've proven is that Manowar has sold more than Manilla Road, and that they've been signed to major albums. Neither of those prove that their influence is due primarily to that.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

I stated that Manowar has a continuing influence that is at least partially related to their fame as a major label metal act that has a large fanbase and has sold a relatively large of albums. They became more famous after signing to a major label and that's clearly part of why they're a well-known band.

Did I state that being on a major label is the only reason why they were influential? No. In fact, I was very clear that this was not the case. There is no doubt that some of their continuing influence is due to their fame.

As I stated earlier, Manilla Road is very influential for an underground band. Comparing them to a band that has been on a major label for nearly 20 years and became much more famous after releasing albums through major labels than they were prior doesn't really make sense.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

Oh and I didn't claim that I provided statistics. I claimed that album sales chart statistics exist that support my claim that their fame has grown since joining major labels. These are readily accessible to you if you want to read them. It's not my job to read things on the internet for you so you can have informed opinions.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

They clearly became much more popular after signing with a major label, which boosted the sales of their albums in general.

Manowar was on a major label for less than a decade, and at no point can you ever say they were famous.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Oh and I didn't claim that I provided statistics. I claimed that album sales chart statistics exist that support my claim that their fame has grown since joining major labels. These are readily accessible to you if you want to read them. It's not my job to read things on the internet for you so you can have informed opinions.

I'm already aware of Manowar's rather poor chart figures. Please address the rest of my post.

You completely disregarded my point about Slayer, Exodus, Helloween, etc because you know it disproves your bullshit. Any band influenced by Manowar today is almost certainly also going to be aware of Manilla Road; you've provided no way of separating the two based on major label releases.

All you've proven is that Manowar has sold more than Manilla Road, and that they've been signed to major albums. Neither of those prove that their influence is due primarily to that.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

When did I say that was the primary reason for them being influential? Why should I have to address a claim that I didn't make?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

When did I say that was the primary reason for them being influential? Why should I have to address a claim that I didn't make?

OK, how much of Manowar's influence is due to their presence on a major label? Roughly speaking, of course. Half? A quarter? An eighth? If you're admitting that it's a secondary or tertiary factor, then I don't see why that should disqualify them in a comparison with Manilla Road, being that it would be a relatively minor factor.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

There's no way to prove how much or how little of an impact it had on their popularity, but they've sold many more albums since being on a major label than they did before signing with one, so it seems obvious that they became much more well-known after they signed with a major label. There's no accurate way to measure how they became as influential as they are now, but fame clearly played a part in their wide recognition in the metal community.

I've honestly lost interest in this discussion because you spent a lot of time arguing against something that I didn't even say. I don't have anything else to add.