Cool Nordström Interview

Yeah no one likes people with false claims.

I'm happy to say after some clarifications we've pretty much reached to a consensus, so cheers to all of you :kickass:
 
If you have superior skills/equipment/knowledge/etc. to that of the bedroom warriors, then you should be able to show it. If what you have to offer is honestly superior than what the bedroom warriors have to offer, then you shouldn't be concerned with what they do, because they aren't affecting you in any way. However, if they are starting to affect bigger, more professional guys, then it's time for the bigger, more professional guys to step up their game and prove why they are the professionals.

I think you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from in this.

I AM one of the aforementioned 'bedroom warriors'. I don't have a stand-alone studio/project facility with a bunch of gear like Lasse, Oz etc.

I've made my entire career to this point by competing both with local guys who DO have professional studios and those who DON'T. It's the only reason I've been able to stay afloat.

The point Lasse and I are generally trying to make in this thread is completely unrelated to that. It has nothing to do with ability, or who's competing with who, or egos, or any of that shiz. You guys are grossly misunderstanding our perspective (if it can even be considered shared). To some degree we are saying different things, but the crux of my point is that the way the industry currently handles entry-level engineers is not sustainable, and affects things on the high-end more than you realize. Once again, READ, this has NOTHING to do with ability.

I want to build a facility dedicated to quality studio recordings, but the reality is that it won't be financially sustainable to do so. I'm better off this way because my overheads are lower. The reason is that there are people like me, except who are perfectly happy to record a band once in their lives, call themselves recording engineers, and offer recording services for $2 an hour to record in their 001 with no ambitions to improve either their skill, environment or gear. Bands get suckered in by these lucrative deals all the time. Nordstrom said it himself, they're all recording at home and then sending him the mix jobs.

This has painted Nordstrom into a corner because he couldn't financially sustain his once great analogue studio. All people want are recall on the spot, editing, tools that generally cover up how shit they are. This touches on Lasse's points, where one asks, at what point did everyone become entitled to record a demo? I know the guys here who don't do this for a living may not understand, but the bands that come through for recording about 80%, if not more, of the time are simply not ready. By the old standards they would've just been kicked out of the studio and told to practice for several months. But no, these days they will just go to someone else, who is cheaper, and has enough spare time off from school to edit their performances for peanuts.

This has also painted me into a corner because I can't expand like I want to. I'm at a certain point where I know what some gear will do for me, or what some rooms will do for me. I WANT to give that to my clients because I care about the end product, but the reality is that it would drive my overheads way up, and i would no longer be able to compete on-par with other bedroom warriors (which is hard to do as is). You guys are sorely underestimating the importance of the financial element in this. People are inherently bargain hunters. I was recently at one of the very best facilities here in Melbourne (2 SSL rooms, 1 Neve room, 1 mastering room) and they were barely booked. I spoke to the owner and he said the bookings have been drying up for the last several years. The only significant thing to happen was some Wolfmother listening party for the new CD as I was tracking in the other room.

So once again, the low-end is affecting the high end. The availability of cheap recording gear is destroying the art of engineering, and the professional industry. The less money there is going around, the more top-end facilities will close (you guys do realize this is happening right now, right?), the more pros will leave the game, the more the artform will degenerate etc. etc. It has NOTHING to do with who offers superior services. I've already made the point in here that nobody in their bedrooms is touching CLA, Staub, Grosse or guys like that. But that's completely irrelevant. It doesn't stop the industry going down the toilet. It's not the quality that people are after, it's the affordability. And with artists it's the prospects of your CD likely never moving more than a few dozen copies in today's climate that makes the entire thing even more dire.

It all relates to music becoming increasingly disposable, because now EVERYONE is in a band, EVERYONE is getting heard, EVERYONE is recording a demo on their mbox & NOBODY is paying for the music.

Once again, an industry like that is NOT SUSTAINABLE, for either musicians or engineers. Something needs to give.

Anyway, I should probably stop now. If you guys aren't getting it by now, I suppose you probably won't. The argument is starting to become circular.

Just when you formulate your counter-arguments, at the very least understanding that I'm not some grizzled old-guard 'pro' desperately hanging onto the last of his 2" reels. I'm part of the wave that's going to be the destruction of this industry, and I can see it, because I have front row tickets. I'm in between a basic home setup and something else. I've recorded here, in midrange studios, in high-end studios, the works. Once everything unifies and you see it holistically, as one giant mechanism, you realize that there are cogs which have stopped moving. It's choking up, and at some point or other something will need to give or both music and engineering will become purely hobbyist affairs.
 
ermz: its posts like that, that keep me coming back to the sneap forum.

I hope that the current state of: anyone can play for a band on a major label, and the public is more than happy with digital amp sims and programmed drums extremely tuned vocals is over soon!

but i know its just began. I hope the sneap forum can still be a place i can come to learn how to capture and mix real sounds.
 
Ermin has worded it perfectly!
it's just a vicious circle that's fueled by the urge to get cheaper and cheaper results, quality is not an issue.

every band records a shitty or mediocre demo and Labels (at least the smaller and medium sized ones) can't afford to financially fully support one or few bands completely, so they rather sign 20 of these shitty bands, release their bedroom sounds with very little costs and risk instead of signing ONE promising artist and supporting him by sending him to a proper studio etc.

I have worked with well known labels who's budget for the booklet artwork as well as for the photos is twice as big (each!) as the budget for the entire recording (not kidding!)....labels are signing/releasing home-produced albums that sonically are FAR below the standards of this forum and they're open about it...they're telling me "we rather spend money for a photographer and artwork to promote them and to have something that looks nice in magazines than for a quality production, cause noone cares how it sounds....and we can sign 20 bands with very little costs and risk instead of sending one band to a studio to get a great production...why should we, the buyer doesn't care, and he's the one with the money"
so bands that have a decent/high quality production are just not affordable for the small/medium labels anymore.
And since the average buyer doesn't care of course the labels focus on mass instead of class....if 19 of those signed bands don't go anywhere the one that does go somewhere makes up for that...and they label didn't have any recording costs.....
In fact most of the bands on a label that I work for INSIST one having me produce the album, it's not the labels that insist on quality.
I know that may be different with the big labels, but it's a growing cancer that will affect the bigger labels and hence the bigger name producers more and more as well.
Ask people like Andy, James, Bogren etc how many of their jobs consist of projects that have been tracked poorly at some project/home studio....you'll be surprised...that's true for some of the now bigger bands also...
so there are the tracks you have to work with...poorly recorded drums, guitars and bass not played well enough/tight enough (because the band didn't have a proper producer telling them to pick harder etc), vox outta key etc...
so the mixing job consists to 60-70% of fixing things...Beat Detectiving drums, editing guitars (trying to find that one riff that's played halfway decent, looping that), tuning vox, editing guitars, samplereplacing drums.....things that are often necessary to make the shittily recorded tracks sound decent....
and this necessity drives the result further away from the high quality it would have been if it was tracked and produced properly in the first place.
Now the gux mixing guy HAS to use the tools that every bedroom warrior uses to make the songs listenable.....so the results may be getting closer to the ones of the bedroom warrior...but not because the bedroom guys get better, but because the bigger guys have to fix the poorly recorded bedroom tracks with all those methods....
Of course, there's still a difference, but this difference costs lots of money.....
if you run a medium sized studio you'll have to make at least 500€ a day to sustain it...(overheads, insurances etc)...now do some math...fixing the drums=3days...tuning vox 3days, editing guitars and bass=3days = 4000€+ only for the fixing of things....
these 4k alone are more than the recording budget of some of the smaller labels is....so the result is that all these fixing jobs have to be done for free/included in the mixing fee....
and the smaller labels sign 10-20 bands with programmed drums and PODs instead....which fuels the bedroom-thingy and degrades the quality even further...and the vicious cycle starts over again.

someone earlier said "why worry if you're releasing better quality?"...well...as I said...quality is not an important point anymore...even for some labels.
Money is (that's never been different of course), and money comes from sales....and if the average buyer gets so used to listening to shittily produced, mixed, programmed CDs he eventually doesn't know better and doesn't care for quality anymore (happened already)....if the buyer doesn't care for quality, why should the labels shell out 20-40k for a decent recording?.
it's actually not a vicious cycle, it' a downward spiral.

I still will always give everything and get the best I can out of my projects....that means more work for less money...other people (smarter people?) just run the stuff through the same templates and are done much faster, so they can take the next project in much faster...unfortunately a necessary adoption to the situation...cause we have to make a living.
I'm still fighting against it and not doing it that way...it bites me in the ass every month when I have to pay my rent, insurances, shop for food etc...but I love music and my job too much to not work on everything until I got the best possible result.
this dedication is costing me money! so what do you say? should I do the economically smart thing and rush the projects, use more samplereplacement etc to be done with it faster and hence make enough money to sustain the business?
I know I should, but I don't wanna be a part of this downward spiral, I'm, LOVING music and well produced CDs, so I'm clinging on to this last straw and am working half the time for free because I'm dedicated.....
but there's only so much dedication one can afford if one has to make a living off it....so eventually dedicated people/medium sized studios will get sucked into that quality degrading downward spiral that's destroying the music industry, or they'll just go broke and leave the space for another bedroom warrior.

this has NOTHING to do with being envious or a bitter old man clinging on to the 2", it's just a fact that this (and other things) will destroy the music industry and will also bite the musicians in the ass (does already)....even good bands that should be able to make a living off their music will not be able to, the only money they get is from touring and merch...(forget about getting money from CD sales!)....so signed with the labels are not some bigger/professional bands, but tons of the same generic 5-piece that have their regular dayjob at WalMart (or more likely run a bedroom studio).....
these facts of course may make a label less necessary for the band...what for if they don't get a budget anyway?
that's why lots of bands rather look for a distributor than a label....
I know of labels that primarily look at myspace plays before they sign a band!
seriously, this whole industry goes down the shitter......
one may say "perhaps that's what's necessary so it can re-build itself"....easy to say for the bedroom guys....
this is hurting the musicians as well!

musicians and producers get fucked from all sides these days.....this year in Germany we all got only HALF of the royalties we should have gotten from the GVL because the industry behind CD manufacturing, TV etc fucked the artists extremely hard and just claimed half of the money that's rightfully the musicians money...well there are battles being fought in court now etc, and eventually we'll PERHAPS get our right, but that's how it works...take it from those who complain/fight the leasts....and that's the producers/musicians/artists, cause we can't afford to go on strike or something...we just have to keep working harder for less money.

If you now call me whiney you really have no clue about the music industry and how it works and should perhaps sell your POD.

Sorry for the long rant.....without doublechecking etc...just blind speedtyping....probably very difficult to read even, lol
 
Love these points Ermz and Lasse have brought up.
I really think Josh should re read what he wrote.
"then it's time for the bigger, more professional guys to step up their game and prove why they are the professionals"?
Is that fucking serious?
The pros that thousands of hours of experience, a portfolio of extremely well produced albums under their belt and the gear to match have to prove themselves? They don't have to prove JACK SHIT.
They've already proven themselves many times over.
CLA, Sneap, Bogren, Andy Wallace, David Bendeth, Daniel Bergstrand, just to name a few, are all household names and are rightly so.
Do you think anyone should be telling anyone of their caliber to "prove themselves"?
BULLSHIT.
No way.
Their work and talent speaks for themselves.

While I'm at it, I must say some of the things I've learnt at my relatively short time at the Sneap forum came as a real shock to me, and were quite disheartening.
In the same way that many bedroom engineers with a lack of talent and skill should not be advertising themselves as pros, people who play instruments should know at what point if they are actually a musician or not.
Many times, I've seen threads were there have been questions about how to edit things and use certain plug ins to mask a lack of talent on the part of the bands.
This is something I have a HUGE problem with, fostering these bands that severely lack talent and artistic integrity for the sake of making some dollars.
Why are people charging 300 bucks for a band that cannot play their instruments for shit, editing the fuck out of it to perfection, instead of maybe only charging 250 dollars for the band that is actually worth a fuck musically and has the talent, but can't stretch that extra 50 dollars?
Why are we so hung up on the extra dollars that are we so willing to compromise artistic integrity? One response I once had was along the lines of "Well I don't care really, as long as the money is in my pocket and it sounds good and tight, I don't care how horribly bad the band plays live". I personally find this attitude pretty unacceptable.
We are allowing bands to be able to record their record, give people the false impression they are really good, and since they have the album behind them to give them a better chance of being able to book shows, the struggling bands that couldn't afford to get an album done aren't getting gigs, meanwhile untalented hacks are playing big stages and absolutely raking it in.

If more people changed their attitudes, told more bands to fuck off and go and practice before coming back to a tracking session, we can start seeing a rise in the levels of talent and levels of musicianship. David Bendeth once said in an interview that bands left his studio as better musician. Sure a little beaten up and battered, but ultimately, they know what the fuck they are doing after leaving his studio. That's what we should be aiming for.
Fact is, most people that pick up a guitar can't even fucking play Paramore properly (and to be fair on Paramore that shit isn't even THAT easy to play anyway), and I think we need to make "musicians" more aware of what's actually realistic of their abilities.
If you really can't play technical death metal, just step back and look at yourself in a realistic light and see what's actually within your abilities and start playing music that doesn't require you to have to track performances 4 bars at a time.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not an old fart (I'm 21), and copying and pasting choruses and verses is all good, but christ, at the VERY LEAST be able to play a full verse/bridge/chorus or whatever section it may be from start to finish, because 2 or 4 bars at a time is just ridiculous.

But of course, if the industry is just going to stay that way, I may as well just give up any idea of wanting to become really good at this, save whatever skills I may have for my own projects for my own enjoyment and "Sell out" working an industry that never had any soul in the first place so at least I don't have to feel like I'm robbing myself and others of artistic integrity.
 
The last posts by Ermin and Lasse sum up the whole ordeal pretty much perfectly, and at least for me, made the point clear.

I, myself, am mostly what is described in this thread as a bedroom warrior, and I'm guilty of being dirt cheap in my opinion, yet my rates are still often considered too high 'cause the kid next door always does it cheaper unless I agree to do a project for a sixpack of beer. And working for a sixpack is something I haven't agreed to do in quite a while. Sure, it takes work away from me, but frankly, I don't want to steal anyone else's business only by being cheaper than anyone else. That's not how I want to compete. I don't consider this field of work a hobby for myself, it's a field of expertise. You don't make money assembling model airplanes and you most definitely don't steal from anyone else's business by playing golf on an amateur level. And even though I am a bedroom warrior when it comes to purely mixing projects, I like to think I differ from the cracked-plugin, mommy-sponsored, preset-trusting bunch just because of the fact I'm actually constantly putting effort in learning the trade and I'm obsessed to turn this into a full-time business. There's nothing else I've even considered to do for a living since I was fifteen. I know it's a huge risk nowadays, but I don't care. I'd rather work with music I really don't care for, barely making a living, than making 6k a month doing anything else.

And in some way I have a bit of hope that the industry will reach a point sometime in the future where the art of engineering is appreciated again. Maybe that's in vain, but at least I'm gonna try my best to make do until then :)
 
Labels these days pay nothing. If you sign for a label (not Nuclear Blast, Roadrunner,etc... but medium/low labels) you have to pay yourself the studio, the merchandise, the photo sessions. Labels only distribute/sell cd's.
I remember some years ago....I did a black metal project with 1 of my friends, a project for fun, shitty black metal. It went first in the vitaminic's metal chart for many weeks, forwarding Venom. We receive a call from a Label and he said we have to pay ourself the promotion and all these things. So we said "fuck you" to this label. I mean, there are labels that don't spend a single € to promote/help bands, they only want the sales % and it sucks. And it's a part of this downward spiral.
About the bands, I know that a danish producer some years ago received the tracks to mix from a well knowed deutch metal band. They recorded by ourself the album. There was the drums totally programmed and the OH's were in a single MONO track. He said them it sucks and they became angry (!). So he had to do miracles trying to put all the cymbals in stereo, separating them hit by hit.
Why? Because they want to record themselves/save money I suppose. This album won also some award so, why they would record in a different way next time? They recorded in a shitty way, the guy that mix fixed everything, they won an award. They probably do the same the next time also. And the downward spiral continues
 
I've read many interesting things about many music industry aspects..., i like this thread

My reflections...

I prefer a good written album with bad production that a crappy band with super sound because I do not consider myself AE but musician. That is why I value more music than production. But of course, I love when talent and awesome sounding goes together hand in hand.

I recorded all my albums myself (8 in my life, that's all my CV as "AE"), shitty productions in comparisson with pros, but I had great success with some of the bands and projects specially the latest one. I make money from music as musician, copyrights, live shows, compilations, merchandising... is not my way of living but it helps, so I'm not even professional.

I've seen things have changed in the last 10 years...

In 2000 I signed with a important spanish label... they gave us 6.000 € to do the album, then apart they paid all promo in mags and webs, so we recorded ourselves the album in our rehearsal room and all the money we spent in mastering at Finnvox and the artwork by Derek Riggs.

2 years later we signed with another label that gave us nothing, only promo.

2 years later we released another album under our own created label and sold it via a distribution company. No money, no promo...

Next album will be probably free online (as all my side projects).

That is the evolution... but i found on the new internet era a way to make more money... sow, harvest and pick...


Sorry for the speech, I do not often write so much cause english is not my mother tongue and i find it hard to explain myself in these kind of threads.
 
Really good and illuminating post Lasse, I honestly didn't realize that was the case - I had always assumed that labels would be smart enough to want good production for their artists, and thus the only threat bedroom guys posed to producers was for the business of the independent unsigned artists; granted, I assume (and as you implied) you're working with labels on the smaller side, but I can definitely see the mentality working it's way up, slowly but surely, and it definitely is very disturbing.
 
Big rock bands still have big rock productions (Nickelback et al.), but IMO the "downward spiral" in the production realm with bedroom warriors, MIDI drums and PODs seems skewed towards the heavy rock/metal side of things (and obviously to some extent hip hop, but IMO that's a whole 'nother ballgame) simply because there truly is no money because the fanbase is so small (in the US, IMO). For some bands (and I'm not talking signed bands), if they want a halfway decent recording, going the bedroom route seems to make sense, again, IMO. I think it's an overgeneralization to assume that EVERY band using these "bedroom" methods suck from the outset. In my personal experience, I've never recorded a band that couldn't pull off what they put down on a recording...But I'm not a heavy editor and do not use programmed drums. But, what I have encountered are a bunch of poor bands. I dare say that just because they have no money they don't get to record...rather, they just don't get to do it up right in a full blown studio.

IMO, I truly think that for an independent artist or band, learning the ropes with some recording will only serve to further their goals, as much if not more than honing their chops in musicianship in songwriting.

To be honest, the guys making the best bedroom productions have never really advertised themselves as studios or AE's, so IMO it's not worth sweating the ones who do. I DO think people can tell nice productions from bad ones. I hear about it quite often. While the average joe may not be able to discern as well as some of those on here, people KNOW crap recordings.

The world as a whole is having to do a lot more work for less money. Hell, I work in healthcare as my day job, I can ASSURE you that AE's are not the only ones going through hard times.
 
I think it would be helpful for the current state of affairs, if "bedroom warriors" focused more on getting good performances, tracking them cleanly and doing the small amount of editing themselves so that it is easier for professional such as sneap bogren ect. to get an excellent sound from, instead of spending their time editing sloppy performances to sound decent.

I realize that the public is happy with shitty pod/dfh productions, but I think that once the public is presented with a superior product, they will go "fuck me this sounds fucking amazing" and it will give properly recorded music an edge over the pool of shitty pod/dfh productions.

the current state of crappy production will hopefully get thrown on its ass when bedroom warriors realize the virtues of proper production and performance, and start working with the purists rather than tryng to put them out of business
 
Some good points in this thread. The music business is fucked up on every side, from the bands to the studios to the labels. I've experienced it directly.

If I can go all airy fairy for a moment though, I have to believe there will always be a place for hard working, talented and dedicated people. A lot of listeners still appreciate great music and the work that goes into making it.
 
Thanks for the interview Lasse - Thankfully I don't consider myself any form of engineer - I'm just a musician getting my thoughts down with the tools I have. The only person I'm trying to please is myself and if I can get a great sound out of the methods I use I'm pretty damned happy.
 
Lasse I agree 100% with your last post. Every since word in it.
However, this is not a fight you can win alone. I am also of the generation that appreciates quality over quantity. But we cannot change people and force them to learn their instruments or tell labels how to spend their money.
We also can't convince kids of the shitty quality mp3's their illegally downloading etc etc
It is a downwards spiral and there is nothing we can do about it other than to try to enlighten people and vent. It's a sad reality really.
 
Lasse I agree 100% with your last post. Every since word in it.
However, this is not a fight you can win alone. I am also of the generation that appreciates quality over quantity. But we cannot change people and force them to learn their instruments or tell labels how to spend their money.
We also can't convince kids of the shitty quality mp3's their illegally downloading etc etc
It is a downwards spiral and there is nothing we can do about it other than to try to enlighten people and vent. It's a sad reality really.


yeah, at least we can still be bitching about in in forums like this ;)
 
Funny that. The Overheads on Opeth's Deliverance ended up being in mono. I always wondered what Andy had to go through to salvage that record.

I always wondered if that made me weird for quite enjoying the production on Deliverance.
I know from a technical standpoint it isn't "good", but there's a certain vibe happening that just makes me enjoy how it sounds.
 
I always wondered if that made me weird for quite enjoying the production on Deliverance.
I know from a technical standpoint it isn't "good", but there's a certain vibe happening that just makes me enjoy how it sounds.

IMO it has this awesome vibe and sounds great, deliciously lo-fi. :)
 
yeah, at least we can still be bitching about in in forums like this ;)

Massive +1

And if not here, we can always take it to GS where bitching is the name of the game all day, every day.

Btw, I'm glad Lasse's last post made it sink in for some. I tried my best, but I can't match the sort of insight he has into dealing with labels. The only thing I can recount is how a certain label down here is interested in some of the acts I've produced. One was given $3,000 for an entire full-length, and another one, when toying about with potential signing negotiations were given a figure less than $6,000. This is AUD, the dollar that is worth a bee's dick internationally. The industry is a serious mess. Australia in particular has a metal scene worth absolute shit, and it's this care and diligence so evidently applied to it which must contribute to our amazing lack of renown anywhere in the world. My goal, when I started this, was to help change this in conjunction with the best acts we have to offer. To give them production jobs to compete with the best in the world, and finally put it all on an even playing field. But every single day it gets harder to do. When a band track everything themselves and their album funds barely cover your mixing fee, you get painted into a corner and the name of the game becomes 'salvage desperately' instead of 'let's put up these faders and see where this record can really go'. The golden days of production are nearing an end, and those of us with true love for fidelity were born in the wrong era apparently.