Cool Nordström Interview

The current trend of perfect, quantized, sample-replaced, tuned songs makes it SO much easier for a bedroom guy to sound 'pro'. Its harder to make drum MIDIs sound not perfect than it is to make them sound mechanical, which is currently desired. I think once the trend moves away from this 'perfect' sound, bedroom studios may have a harder time. Drum software would be 'too perfect' without humanisation, and in any case drum software can really only emulate a real player who's been sample replaced, imo. To emulate a 100% raw drummer is something that is still a while off I think.

Doing a really bad job explaining myself.. but basically with all the digital editing thats going on, that's something that the bedroom guys can do to, and its probably the biggest part of producing a song at the moment. Once the focus moves away from digital editing and onto stuff that the bedroom guys can't do, like using awesome players, awesome amps, awesome rooms, awesome everything, then there may be a shift back to the guys in proper studios.

The way I see it.. either stop complaining about how bad drum MIDIs, software amps, etc. are and start showing how much BETTER live amps are, huge drum rooms with awesome room mics and awesome players. If the consumer can't notice a difference (which albeit is harder atm as I mentioned above), then either there's not a problem, or the problem is you.

+1

with the whole loudness war going on which is why sample replacemnt and robitc playing have been desired, the power of absolute quality is being hindered, I think that is why digital music now from the pros is not that much better than bedroom studios. If a DAW was being used with all analog gear (preamps, console, outboard, tape etc) and keep limiting to a minimal, the margin of quality from the big studios and the bedroom studios would be massive, there would be no way for the basement dwellers to compete and amp sims, pods and drum programs won't be able to compete with the real professional tube and transistor analog gear.
 
Read over my previous post and I may have gone too far..

The whole 'recording industry' atm, seems to be dying. Hopefully this is just because of the current 'perfect' trend.. I really love this and would pursue a career in it if I could, but its just not a realistic dream. You can barely even "make it" anymore. This then means that I can't afford to get a proper room, buy proper stuff because I just can't afford it (The proper studios around here charge like $35 an hour. For a whole fucking studio, many rooms, TWO PEOPLE. You earn more than that working at Coles, and you don't have to worry about overheads, not getting customers, etc.). So my bedroom productions are because I love doing this, I like playing and listening to music, but I love creating music, and I hate the fact that I can't just magically play everything. So production is the alternative, it means I can work on others' music, get to 'create' without actually having to spend time practicing a bunch of different instruments. Bonus is that bands get their stuff recorded for free/cheap. Negative is that the 'real' studios suffer, but only because my product is of a similar standard (hard to phrase this without seeming very egotistical).
 
I was shocked about the In Flames part. They wanted to change their sound at COLONY? Jesus. Thank god for Nordstrom. They are nothing higher than terrible since Reroute came out.

About this whole argument. I'm going to agree that metal isn't pop, and shouldn't be treated as it is now a days.

I also agree that if you think real amps/drums sound better, make better recordings with them! I do, because I like life in my music, not pure roboticness. I even leave a little bit of mistake in some of my songs, because I'm human. That's what HUMANS do, make mistakes. Editing/programming everything takes the human out of the equation.
 
I was shocked about the In Flames part. They wanted to change their sound at COLONY? Jesus. Thank god for Nordstrom. They are nothing higher than terrible since Reroute came out.

Yea that shocked me too. The fact that Nordstrom was able to delay them going to shit makes him even cooler than he is already!
I think it's funny he made the statement about US bands copying in flames and then in flames copying US bands and him not understanding why in the hell they would wanna do that. I felt the exact same way after clayman :ill: But I disagree about them being bigger if they stayed their course. In Flames are much more popular now with their US influence than they ever were before. They just aren't as cool to us old dudes :Smug:

I was also surprised at how blunt, honest, and to the point he is. But I guess you kinda have to be in this profession.
 
The Lasse's point is not from the band prospective. C'mon, look at "Rate my mix.." thread....there are only impulses/simulators discussions and they are the most visited discussions.
I think these are good things for a band that can record a good demo, way better than before. But if you like to do this job, I think that getting new and more professional gear should be a natural step.
But we see, as Lasse said, many studio page where the equipment is like 0, only a pc, cracked software, cracked amps simulators, cracked drum virtual instruments, etc... ok, it's good if you do a demo for yourself, if you like to write and record yourself or you band in an easy way. But when you start to earn money in this way, it's pretty wrong.
I have nothing against working in a bedroom because initially you can't afford a dedicated place, but the important thing is the attitude you use.
For example Ryan is a good example of a talented guy, that work in a bedroom, but that use proper equipment. He tracks real drum, he uses real amps (also impulses), and if he charges some money is good. And his products are very very good.
The point is: if you like to do this job you have to dedicate yourself to improve. If you can't afford to buy nothing and you take it as a fact, you foxilizes yourself at this level. But you can't pretend to charge money with nothing to offer.
 
The Lasse's point is not from the band prospective. C'mon, look at "Rate my mix.." thread....there are only impulses/simulators discussions and they are the most visited discussions.
I think these are good things for a band that can record a good demo, way better than before. But if you like to do this job, I think that getting new and more professional gear should be a natural step.
But we see, as Lasse said, many studio page where the equipment is like 0, only a pc, cracked software, cracked amps simulators, cracked drum virtual instruments, etc... ok, it's good if you do a demo for yourself, if you like to write and record yourself or you band in an easy way. But when you start to earn money in this way, it's pretty wrong.
I have nothing against working in a bedroom because initially you can't afford a dedicated place, but the important thing is the attitude you use.
For example Ryan is a good example of a talented guy, that work in a bedroom, but that use proper equipment. He tracks real drum, he uses real amps (also impulses), and if he charges some money is good. And his products are very very good.
The point is: if you like to do this job you have to dedicate yourself to improve. If you can't afford to buy nothing and you take it as a fact, you foxilizes yourself at this level. But you can't pretend to charge money with nothing to offer.

exactly!
 
Certainly I agree that , no matter what you use, as long as it sounds good, that's what matters.
That being said, bedroom engineers, even the best ones, can argue all they like, but until they have the sort of monitoring the pros use and acoustic conditions they have, they will never get as good a result. And as a crappy amateur bedroom "engineer" (I use the term engineer rather loosely), I can certainly say, aside from a lack of experience and skills, it's just too much work trying to compensate for shitty monitoring and crap acoustic conditions and for now, my mixes might translate fairly well to fairly crappy speakers, but they will not have a hope in hell in translating to a high end systems, whereas guys like Sneap are able to make their stuff translate to a much wider variety of systems.

For now I'll continue to do what I do, which is to read up on advice given here, keep experimenting and tweaking, but until I'm sure I truly understand what I'm doing and have decent monitoring (that is if I even decide to take this beyond a hobby, which it currently is) it would definitely not be right of me to be undercutting the pros.
 
On another note.

Technical perfection vs vibe.

I listened to the Pagan's Mind record they talk about in this interview, since the interviewer thinks so highly of it. Now I just compared this to Clayman, which is from another era altogether. It's clear on the Pagan'd Mind record that Nordstrom has done better separation and generally more clearly defined, professional jigsawing of the mix. Listening back to Clayman, the bass is too boomy, perhaps a bit too scooped in one region, the vocals are obscured, overheads loud etc.

BUT

It sounds better.

The more and more I get into this, the more I realize that what make a mix are those flaws. Those little characteristics that are left there as part of the vibe. You struggle a bit to hear that vocal buried under the guitars, but it just makes the guitars seem so much more powerful. Everything is fucking glued manically. There is separation, but something holding everything together at the same time.

The Pagan's Mind record doesn't have this. ITB doesn't give us the luxury of thinking this way. We don't have our gear in the way to create an abstraction of the source. ITB we just get exactly what's printed, and nothing else. This is boring as all shit. We don't have the console 'bending', nor do we have the busses soft clipping and bringing our groups together. We don't have that subtle harmonic distortion that adds up and creates that beautiful 'cloud' over the mix.

You know, just for kicks, I put on my latest work with Untruth right after the Pagan's Mind record, and don't take this as blowing smoke up my own rear, but I preferred the sound of the Untruth CD. I think Nordstrom's mixing style really didn't translate well to digital. Even though there is nothing 'technically' wrong with the PM record, there is nothing outstanding about it at the same time. It's just a boring, what you hear is what you get affair. With the Untruth stuff I printed brutally with every piece of outboard I could on the way down. Almost every plug-in I used was an analogue emulation, and the master chain I imagine was filled with outboard. It is *so* important to have those rose colored glasses as part of our mixing. I only hope that sometime in the future we are able to have daws with busses and gain structure that reacts like the desks would have.

This is something we are currently losing with the bedroom studios. Everything is, at best, clear-cut, clean, dreadfully boring. There is nothing exciting about every second guy using Snare 12Z1 on their record and slapping a transparent ITB compressor on to make it pop more.

As much as some of you guys are trying to justify this by saying the old guard are hanging on by a thread simply because the bedroom guys are pulling out comparable results. Well, they're not. I don't know what you've been listening to, or what you've been listening on, but I have NEVER heard a bedroom guy match Staub or CLA. I have never even heard one come close.

The only way the home studios are winning is via price. And hell, I'm not part of the old guard. I only jumped into this game about 5 years ago, largely as the bedroom thing was taking off. I started off there. $300 monitors, no treatment, all cracked plug-ins. That's how I did my first record. But since then I've allowed myself to learn, to be exposed to new things and to understand why the old guard are advocating the use of outboard, great rooms, great gear etc. so fervently. There is a reason to all this, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Justify the existence of home studios all you want.. but the cold reality is that they are degenerating the artform of engineering, and I'm partly sickened to be part of it (though hopefully for not too many years longer).
 
.....podfarm, impulses, cracked cubase and nothing more. I've not a pro studio but I bought ProTools, I've enough mics to record a whole drumkit, I bought amps, cabs, preamps, stands, and all I need to work. And I'm very happier than before.
And last but not least, I bought all these things before I started a myspace page or a studio activity.

+1
 
Situation:

Noob asks what he can do to learn audio engineering.

Pro tells Noob to get "out there" and start recording bands, doing demos etc. (Which will also help earn money to buy better gear)

Noob does exactly that, and in order to help with band contact he creates a Myspace page for his recordings.

Pro get fucking pissed becuse the Noob is advertising his services without being a "real engineer" and not having expensive gear.

Noob, rightly confused, hands the Pro a shovel with attached instructions on how to best dig the sand out of their vagina.






Ok that last part has nothing to do with my point, I just though it would be funny.
 
Situation:

Noob asks what he can do to learn audio engineering.

Pro tells Noob to get "out there" and start recording bands, doing demos etc. (Which will also help earn money to buy better gear)

Noob does exactly that, and in order to help with band contact he creates a Myspace page for his recordings.

Pro get fucking pissed becuse the Noob is advertising his services without being a "real engineer" and not having expensive gear.

Noob, rightly confused, hands the Pro a shovel with attached instructions on how to best dig the sand out of their vagina.






Ok that last part has nothing to do with my point, I just though it would be funny.

not true, this is not how it works
 
But we see, as Lasse said, many studio page where the equipment is like 0, only a pc, cracked software, cracked amps simulators, cracked drum virtual instruments, etc... ok, it's good if you do a demo for yourself, if you like to write and record yourself or you band in an easy way. But when you start to earn money in this way, it's pretty wrong.

I would never be so bold and pretend to have my own studio going, charging money, if I'd be in such a situation.

But the thing is, it might be morally wrong but that's about it. If somebody with a Computer, a shitty interface, all cracked software, desktop speaker etc. decides to spontaneously be an engineer and to run a "studio", than it is what it is, he has all the rights in the world to do so.

We think it's "morally wrong" and we love this craft so we'd like to see it maintaining a certain quality level and some integrity. But in the end it comes down to money and many people couldn't give a rats ass about "morale" when they're on a tight budget.

The only thing you can do is to convince your (possible) clients that it will be their win if they decide to invest a little more in their product. If you can't do that, you're fucked. That's the reality.

And as these hobbyists progress they'll eventually face the same situation.

This is something we are currently losing with the bedroom studios. Everything is, at best, clear-cut, clean, dreadfully boring. There is nothing exciting about every second guy using Snare 12Z1 on their record and slapping a transparent ITB compressor on to make it pop more.

As much as some of you guys are trying to justify this by saying the old guard are hanging on by a thread simply because the bedroom guys are pulling out comparable results. Well, they're not. I don't know what you've been listening to, or what you've been listening on, but I have NEVER heard a bedroom guy match Staub or CLA. I have never even heard one come close.

The only way the home studios are winning is via price. And hell, I'm not part of the old guard. I only jumped into this game about 5 years ago, largely as the bedroom thing was taking off. I started off there. $300 monitors, no treatment, all cracked plug-ins. That's how I did my first record. But since then I've allowed myself to learn, to be exposed to new things and to understand why the old guard are advocating the use of outboard, great rooms, great gear etc. so fervently. There is a reason to all this, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Justify the existence of home studios all you want.. but the cold reality is that they are degenerating the artform of engineering, and I'm partly sickened to be part of it (though hopefully for not too many years longer).

No, I also haven't heard a "bedroom mix" that could compete with a Staub mix.

BUT: The quality gap has become smaller. "Quality" being what the industry and the peers want to hear, not "quality" in the sense of what we appreciate. If it didn't, this whole argument wouldn't exist.

10 years ago, it was almost impossible to get a somewhat "professional" sounding record on a very tiny budget. So you could either just record a lacklustre demo and hope to be signed based on it or you could sell your soul, your house, your car etc. to be able to afford a professional recording.

Nowadays, it IS very much possible to get a record that's "professional" sounding on a tight budget, in the sense of what this industry wants: a tight, clean and loud record.

To be clear, I absolutely, for the love of my life, CANNOT stand these type of productions. The aforementioned "vibe" is very much important to me.

BUT: There is an audience for this. People want to hear this. I may personally agree (and I do) that this has degenerated the overall quality level of productions, but this is only my opinion, you just cannot state something like this a s a fact. It's not possible when we're talking about something so subjective as music.

Having the "metal audience" as a whole in mind, we very much might be the vast minority with this sentiment.

But as long as there are bands like Mastodon, Opeth, Katatonia, Isis, Converge etc. around, there will be always people around who appreciate a different approach.

Might you next generic bore-core band come around with a smashed, edited, tuned, sample-replaced etc. to hell and back record... and might every kid go ballistic about it: I still don't have to listen to this shit.

Each to his own.
 
not true, this is not how it works

Well, to be fair, there is not much else a "noob" can do. In most cases there are just a couple of other options:
1) Rent a space, take a huge loan and buy decent gear. There's a good chance things won't go well (especially having in mind the overheads). Even if you are really good there's a very high risk of you ending up broke and owing a load of money.
2) Intern or get hired in a studio. Sounds nice but seldom happens nowadays. Especially if you don't have experience and a bunch CDs to show for it.
 
And as these hobbyists progress they'll eventually face the same situation.

That's something which has come up before.

So many of these kids are using all stolen software, and very entry-level gear, so their overheads are immensely small and they can as a result charge very little for their services.

Once they get to a point where they consider moving out of home or going 'legit' it becomes evident that their process isn't self-sustaining. But it's too late, once that realization is made and they hike their prices, a new wave of bedroom kids has jumped up to take their place.

That's some cyclical industry self-destruction right there.

Reading the rest of your post, I'm not really sure where we disagree. You seem to have come to terms with the sad reality of the status quo, whereas I'm still struggling with the implications it will have further down the track.

Engineering, as a trade, will get diminished. Those who in the past learned by assisting great engineers, will now learn from academic students of yester-year. One generation of bedroom producers teaching the other. It seems inevitable that the craft itself will suffer on a wide scale. Naturally the kids won't care, as they won't have ever had exposure to anything else, and the awesome uber-tiny portable iPod earphones of the future will naturally have 30% THD so anything resembling fidelity will get crushed right out regardless, and Slate will be the richest man on the planet.
 
Well, to be fair, there is not much else a "noob" can do. In most cases there are just a couple of other options:
1) Rent a space, take a huge loan and buy decent gear. There's a good chance things won't go well (especially having in mind the overheads). Even if you are really good there's a very high risk of you ending up broke and owing a load of money.
2) Intern or get hired in a studio. Sounds nice but seldom happens nowadays. Especially if you don't have experience and a bunch CDs to show for it.

but that's what I mean, not EVERYONE BETWEEN 16 and 22 HAS to open a studio!
going back to my pilot analogy:
I can't afford a plane and I have to learn to fly somehow if I wanna be a pilot...
so the only choice is to use a flight simulator....

truth is NOT EVERYONE can be a pilot...
AND if I decide I must be a pilot and the flight simulator is my only choice...that's perfectly fine, but in that case I don't pretend I have a plane.




Ermin: you're saying what I'm thinking!
that's what I mean....I'm not saying noone should fanny about with pod etc, but for fucks sake, son't offer professional studio services if you're neither a professional, nor running a studio....I really don't know what's to argue about that.
 
Yeah but you're not allowed to fly a plane, if you don't have a license. You can't fly without a plane but you can make a record without a "studio" (which is a pretty loose term).

The analogy doesn't fit.

I know where you coming from Lasse, I agree on a lot what you're saying, but still, people can do whatever the fuck they want to do and we're not in the position to say they can't. At least until there's an "engineering license". ;)

Journalists complain about the very same thing: people running their internet blogs, pretending to be "real" journalists. You'll find this everywhere where these titles aren't protected.
 
Engineering, as a trade, will get diminished. Those who in the past learned by assisting great engineers, will now learn from academic students of yester-year. One generation of bedroom producers teaching the other. It seems inevitable that the craft itself will suffer on a wide scale. Naturally the kids won't care, as they won't have ever had exposure to anything else, and the awesome uber-tiny portable iPod earphones of the future will naturally have 30% THD so anything resembling fidelity will get crushed right out regardless, and Slate will be the richest man on the planet.

thats already an issue, we have kids now listening to highly degraded mp3 relative to the 16-bit 44.1K standard which has been the standard since the release of the compact disc in the 80's, with our current audio fidelity at 64-bit 192K the consumer is only going lower quality because its cheaper, it saves space on their already large storage spaces on their ipods. Seriously who fills up 20 Gigs of mp3's? Its not even the space, I think its the fact of illegal downloading because the transfer time is reduced with smaller files . Because we are impatient and want everything for free, we would sacrifice the quality of our audio which to today's standard is outdated.
 

in my analogy I wasn't referring to (or even thinking about) legal parallels...just about the ablility/possibilities...
it was just an image to make something clear....

somehow it seems that everyone should open a studio and now it's about finding excuses to do so even though one has actually not the abilities, rooms, gear etc....
we don't HAVE to find excuses, there are things in life that not everyone can do....
in other field people accept that...funnily enough not in the audio world---everyone with long hair has to play guitar and everyone who's playing guitar has to run a "studio" that's how it is.

I think it's cool that nowadays young musicians have so many options/possibilities to self-produce their demo etc, I really think that's cool...but why does everyone of those have to offer "professional services"?

I mean...there are lot's of kids out there tuning their bikes and cars...some are really good at it and even repair their friend's cars etc...
but somehow not everyone thinks he's the born mechanic and opens a garage offering professional repairs (that's perhaps the better analogy).

Why not? pat of the reason is that you need rooms, good/expensive tools etc to run a professional garage....these kids accept that if they don't have that they can't offer professional repairs!
They can still tweak their own cars etc and they're fine with it....
in the audioworld it seems to be given that everyone has to run a studio and if it can't be how it should be to provide professional services (rooms, gear, knowledge etc) everyone iis trying to find excuses for that...
I repeat myself....we don't have to find excuses for that, it's perfectly fine to not run a "professional studio" if you actually are NOT.

I really think there's nothing wrong with NOT calling a cracked Cubase Bedroom/PC a studio, why do we have to justify that?