Defining Metal Genres Thread
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Satanstoenail
My Larpstyle determines my Derpstyle
They basically say that it's a sellout because there are acoustic guitars in some songs. It's exactly the same thing as I was saying about South of Heaven. I don't think the reviewer there said anything about RtL not being a thrash album.
So what's the point? Sabbra Cadabra is a feelgood rockin ditty about 'lovin' but Sabbath are still a heavy metal band and that song was released at the height of their 'metalness'.
HamburgerBoy
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I'd say that your definition is good enough for me, at least in general. Obviously there is leeway to be had, but the definition clearly excludes songs like For Whom the Bells Toll, The Call of Ktulu, Peace Sells, Hangar 18, etc.
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
Ummm, did i say that Exodus track wasnt thrash? READING COMPREHENSIONZ BRUH!
HMM. So where in that whole article/review did they question wether that album was "thrashy enough"? Was the word even mentioned once? Oh shit, i forgot, reading doesnt seem to be one of your strongpoints. The guy was basically mad that RtL wasn't as fast as he wanted it to be.
and now you've turned it into "you're dickwaving"?:lol. I don't want to keep ruining threads because you seem to not want to let go of this nonsense. We're done here.
HamburgerBoy
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Well, as the author describing Haunting the Chapel as "power metal" indicates, the terms weren't particularly well-defined at that time, but the sentiment of only Fight Fire With Fire meeting his standard and "hardcore bangers" and comparisons to Ozzy solo and etc clearly shows what it meant.
The point is that clinging to a sub-genre like a protective girlfriend or fanatical sportsfan to the point that you consider it an insult when someone says X isn't of sub-genre Y is silly behavior, and any reasonable person should be able to acknowledge that thrash-era Metallica and Megadeth have plenty of non-thrash songs to go around (and there is nothing wrong with that).
HamburgerBoy
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You implied that there exists a relative scale of thrashiness (which I agree with) and that the three Megadeth albums you named are peg higher on the scale than that "reject" Exodus song (which is laughable).
Satanstoenail
My Larpstyle determines my Derpstyle
You should shut the fuck up. It pains me to agree with you in any way. Your chest-beating and herp-derping is, as usual, doing nothing for the discussion. You're making yourself look like a fool. Again.
Ok, so this is totally not meant to be a continuation of the bullshit in the controversial thread or meant to be yet another shit storm to plague this forum. Because, while I cant speak for others here, I can speak for myself when I say while it *was* mildy amusing to see the bickering and ranting, but now its past the point of mild amusement and crossed into fucking annoying territory. So that is not my intention for this thread.
Anyhow, let me try and get us back on track.
(Yes, Im using Wikipedia)
Thrash metal is a sub-genre of heavy metal that is characterized most typically by its fast tempo and aggression. Thrash metal songs typically use fast percussive beats and fast, low-register guitar riffs, overlaid with shredding-style lead work.[1] Lyrically, thrash metal songs often deal with social issues and reproach for The Establishment, often using direct and denunciatory language, an approach which partially overlaps with the hardcore genre.
This is a definition of thrash metal. Accurate? Maybe. Cliche? A bit. Generic and not really helpful? Totally.
Fast tempo and aggression.
Ok, that doesnt help me. Power-violence has an aggressive and fast tempo...
Fast percussive beats
Once again does nothing for me.
Low register guitar riffs
No idea what that means
Overlaid with shredding-style lead work.
Ok, got that.
So basically what I got from this is that its a fast, aggressive style of metal that have a lot of shredding lead guitar work, fast drum beats, and share similar lines to hardcore for their political lyrical content and presentation.
But this really inst too descriptive and im not sure its accurate.
Maybe what I want out of this thread is impossible because im trying to have us help define what these genres of music are in understandable and accurate terms. And maybe thats not possible. One, because some of us cant communicate like adults, or two because this is too hard of a task.
Anyhow, let me try and get us back on track.
(Yes, Im using Wikipedia)
Thrash metal is a sub-genre of heavy metal that is characterized most typically by its fast tempo and aggression. Thrash metal songs typically use fast percussive beats and fast, low-register guitar riffs, overlaid with shredding-style lead work.[1] Lyrically, thrash metal songs often deal with social issues and reproach for The Establishment, often using direct and denunciatory language, an approach which partially overlaps with the hardcore genre.
This is a definition of thrash metal. Accurate? Maybe. Cliche? A bit. Generic and not really helpful? Totally.
Fast tempo and aggression.
Ok, that doesnt help me. Power-violence has an aggressive and fast tempo...
Fast percussive beats
Once again does nothing for me.
Low register guitar riffs
No idea what that means
Overlaid with shredding-style lead work.
Ok, got that.
So basically what I got from this is that its a fast, aggressive style of metal that have a lot of shredding lead guitar work, fast drum beats, and share similar lines to hardcore for their political lyrical content and presentation.
But this really inst too descriptive and im not sure its accurate.
Maybe what I want out of this thread is impossible because im trying to have us help define what these genres of music are in understandable and accurate terms. And maybe thats not possible. One, because some of us cant communicate like adults, or two because this is too hard of a task.
I SAID BABY METAL IS WHAT I NEED
NOT SOME BLOODY WHORE TO FEED
SHE LOOKED AT ME WITH STUPID EYES
THEN I GAVE HER MY ADVICE
PISS OFF IM DRINKING
PISS OFF OR DIE
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
Suck my fucking cock.
IMO the riffage and aggression(all around) are the two most basic and important elements of thrash metal. Throw in some double bass licks. Also, the vocals and lyrics for the large part dont have anything to do with it imo.
Baroque
Active Member
Did you read my definition? I think it is at least a bit more descriptive than 'fast percussive beats'. Feel free to debate my points i'm more than willing to debate them like an adult here.
I would honestly like to make my definition more specific, it might be too general still. There is a very specific drumbeat i'm talking about for thrash. Fast tempo, snare or cymbal on the offbeat consistently, usually snare. Double bass on the beat. Or repeated double bass runs. See Metallica - Dyer's Eve drumming. Very very many bands seem to borrow this beat to great success, I feel it's one the 'moshiest' of beats.
Baroque
Active Member
Here: check this out.
Watch his drumming at least until 1:10 or so.
During the build up, he doesn't even touch the snare drum. Then at 0:55 he hits the snare drum insistenly on the offbeat. It's the same guitar riff, but suddenly the song feels thrashy. Then he does it again during the verse.
Havok - Time Is Up drum cam
Watch his drumming at least until 1:10 or so.
During the build up, he doesn't even touch the snare drum. Then at 0:55 he hits the snare drum insistenly on the offbeat. It's the same guitar riff, but suddenly the song feels thrashy. Then he does it again during the verse.
Havok - Time Is Up drum cam
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Totally bypassed this post, thanks for the follow up because you actually got the point of the thread.
Yeah that helped. Ill check out that Vio-lence album later, but I got what you mean about with Dyers Eve song.
I got what you mean about the drum beat, im not sure if I agree on the guitar work (not sure if I can comment on it either because im not well versed in thrash).
Choppy would refer to the palm muting, or choppy like a galloping riff style? Can you give me an example?
Those are some wide lyrical ranges too. Evil to political? I feel like the evil shit is what seems more pure to the genre standard, and political content seems to deviate and gravitate more towards the punk/hardcore side of things. Which is a no no (to metal purists).
Baroque
Active Member
I honestly think that pure thrash was heavily influenced by hardcore punk. It's sort of the perfect blend of heavy/speed metal and punk. See the band D.R.I. or similar. The lyrics do often wax political. See Havok - Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death, See tons of Megadeth songs. Many Metallica songs as well. See Hexen's albums, etc etc. Social commentary is also very common. How fucked up the world is, I love those kinds of lyrics in thrash. The more 'evil' stuff I feel is not as common outside of like Slayer and some wannabes.
Choppy I'm not totally sure that was a good way to describe it. To be more specific the guitar playing is a bit technical. There's a lot of motion in the non-palm muted parts. There's repeated palm muted picking on low notes (usually power chords or single-picked), followed by repeated minor or diminished scale movement.
I think the lyrics don't matter so much. They don't define the genre so much as the feel of the music. The drumming and guitar riffs are especially important. Vocal styles don't even matter. I've heard vocalists from punk to death metal to high pitched shrieks to clean, and still the music is called thrash.
Using that drumbeat again... yet heavily influenced by punk in my opinion, some might call it crossover thrash, but it still has elements of pure thrash mixed in:
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HamburgerBoy
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When I think of choppy thrash riffing, it's palm-muted bottom-string chugging often either alternating between notes of varying duration or incorporating many brief rests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5L7GyZeazM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbLMrce7OJI#t=1m56s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR2bMIAVlYo#t=2m37s
Obviously there are other mainstays of thrash riffing too. The main Chemical Warfare riff also shows early tremolo-picking styles widely used. You also had more straight-ahead chugging without as much chop, usually with a brief power chord "trill" (for lack of better term) ending each measure or so to break up the monotony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVnhN1-dhZI#t=31s (basically the first proper thrash song in my book)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClBkyLehIBU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5L7GyZeazM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbLMrce7OJI#t=1m56s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR2bMIAVlYo#t=2m37s
Obviously there are other mainstays of thrash riffing too. The main Chemical Warfare riff also shows early tremolo-picking styles widely used. You also had more straight-ahead chugging without as much chop, usually with a brief power chord "trill" (for lack of better term) ending each measure or so to break up the monotony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVnhN1-dhZI#t=31s (basically the first proper thrash song in my book)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClBkyLehIBU
Baroque
Active Member
^Those are all good examples by HB I think. I like how all of those use the same drumbeat I was talking about at some point too.
I would almost go so far as to say that drumbeat defines pure thrash. The guitar has a lot more freedom to do what it wants. That drumbeat has to be in there somewhere. There can be drum fills and changes and often are, but that beat keeps on showing up man.
Anthrax - Caught in a Mosh
http://youtu.be/H1I_zpraODk?t=42s
You can hear 'the drum beat' in the verse. You can also hear the guitar doing what I was talking about. Repeated palm muted low notes, followed by motion in minor or diminished which is not palm muted.
Sometimes the motion is palm muted too though. The palm muting gives it that 'choppy' feel. For example:
Fueled by Fire - Defaced Mortality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if1DwYXNPKg
I would almost go so far as to say that drumbeat defines pure thrash. The guitar has a lot more freedom to do what it wants. That drumbeat has to be in there somewhere. There can be drum fills and changes and often are, but that beat keeps on showing up man.
Anthrax - Caught in a Mosh
http://youtu.be/H1I_zpraODk?t=42s
You can hear 'the drum beat' in the verse. You can also hear the guitar doing what I was talking about. Repeated palm muted low notes, followed by motion in minor or diminished which is not palm muted.
Sometimes the motion is palm muted too though. The palm muting gives it that 'choppy' feel. For example:
Fueled by Fire - Defaced Mortality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if1DwYXNPKg
Satanstoenail
My Larpstyle determines my Derpstyle
I agree with all of this. That beat you're referring to came directly from hardcore punk. There are still plenty of thrash songs that don't have it though imo.
Baroque
Active Member
I have a feeling you might be right, but can you give us some specific examples to analyze?
HamburgerBoy
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Generally it's the slower ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm7qQlWmMEc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqduxsQ8WVs (Lombardo plays this stripped-down and slower form a lot, actually)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd215wjpNh8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm7qQlWmMEc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqduxsQ8WVs (Lombardo plays this stripped-down and slower form a lot, actually)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd215wjpNh8
Satanstoenail
My Larpstyle determines my Derpstyle
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