Elementary school shooting

I've clearly stated, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal looking to disarm all of society - I'm a gun owner (I've made that point clear in an earlier post) that simply has concerns around the inability to have some form of debate over a clearly debatable topic for this country. Like many other things, the power of money (in this case the power of the NRA, it's supporters, and more importantly it's money) to co-opt debate over any change to existing policy (in this case sensible gun ownership). Trust me, my problems with almost any form of lobbying interest squashing open debate (so essentially the right to representation) also applies to many liberal causes.

I apologize for getting a bit personal earlier in what can be read a personal attack, I just don't see the simple fact that you can't get rid of something entirely is reason not to talk about sensible, reasoned, effort to address something that is clearly and numerically factual evidence that our culture has enabled. I'm not ruling out the other aspects of this including mental health, possible parenting issues, ... we simply need the ability to have an open conversation and not have the politics of it repress sensible ideas from being both debated and/or enacted.

Some may think it's about rights, but ultimately like almost every other effort that has a large lobbying organization behind it - it's about the money. don;t fool yourself into believing otherwise.
 
OK so Jind what do you propose ?

In this case these guns owner was perfectly normal, so no mental health focused solutions would work. Right ?
The only way the law could work in this case is making it impossible for the son to steal his mothers guns by requiring her to store them in a closed safe box.
Then he would first have to kill her to get the key or torture her to get the number combination to open the lock... which would make the impossible very possible...
 
Terminus said:
My point wasnt against doing anything. None of us can stop this stuff from happening, we can only make it happen less, but even then (when it happens again) people will still want more legislation, more more more until what? You tell me.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing your the "self regulation" types? I'm asking with no intent of disrespect, just trying to understand how simply being unable to nullify a result should also nullify the ability to try to change any future outcome.

Do you honestly think that because I, as a gun owner, am willing to argue that points of our current interpretation of the 2nd amendment and what amounts "at this time" as a unrestricted access to what amounts to an undefined class of weapons, want to have the results be the loss of my ability to simply own a gun "for hunting and defense".

Deregulation or undefined removal of regulations can be extrapolated out to just as dangerous results as those who oppose regulation can dream of happening when legislation/regulation is proposed or even openly debated.

My last post states more about my concerns than any of this (co-opted representation by big money interests) than my concerns that my right to own a gun is going to be taken away - I just don't see that as the end result of this debatable subject matter - once again the simple ability see a possible end state one disagrees with does not make it the factual outcome. I believe I have a right to hunt (not that I do) and defend myself, I just don't believe that is an unrestricted right. We as a country have to have the ability to, at a bare minimum debate, those possible restrictions openly.

Your right about the "freak" out aspect of these types of tragedies in a way - but the answer can't always be "now is not the time for politics". If not now? When is it OK? The idea that "now is not the time" is really a talking point for those against even debating the subject - a deflection of sorts in that even talking about it might result in change.
 
Mutant said:
OK so Jind what do you propose ?

In this case these guns owner was perfectly normal, so no mental health focused solutions would work. Right ?
The only way the law could work in this case is making it impossible for the son to steal his mothers guns by requiring her to store them in a closed safe box.
Then he would first have to kill her to get the key or torture her to get the number combination to open the lock... which would make the impossible very possible...
Click to expand...

I propose the ability to debate a subject without the influence of lobbying efforts to squash any idea that change can occur. You clearly missed the point that I'm pro gun to a point, a gun owner, my guns are in a lock box that only I know the combination for - one that I would gladly be tortured for if it would prevent an outcome like the one that happened 40 minutes from my home on Friday.

Your idea that the best defense is a gun did not work for the owner of that gun - she was killed by her own, possibly unsecured weapon. Simply drowning out any call for control legislation with "well whats your solution?" seems to be the objective instead of offering up what you don't find objectionable. I've offered up areas where, as a gun owner, I'm willing to examine - have you?

I don't have the solution - I just know it's a debatable topic with reasonable voices on all sides - not just the absolutists on the outside margins.

Does that work for you?
 
Jind said:
Your idea that the best defense is a gun did not work for the owner of that gun - she was killed by her own, possibly unsecured weapon.
Click to expand...
Looks like you confused me with someone else.
My idea was gatekeepers with nonlethal weapons and heavy armor stored in a handy place.

Jind said:
Simply drowning out any call for control legislation with "well whats your solution?" seems to be the objective instead of offering up what you don't find objectionable. I've offered up areas where, as a gun owner, I'm willing to examine - have you?

I don't have the solution - I just know it's a debatable topic with reasonable voices on all sides - not just the absolutists on the outside margins.

Does that work for you?
Click to expand...
Nope.
It was an honest question.
How can we debate if there are no proposed ways to solve the problem ?
 
Mutant said:
Looks like you confused me with someone else.
My idea was gatekeepers with nonlethal weapons and heavy armor stored in a handy place.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the mistake.

Mutant said:
Nope.
It was an honest question.
How can we debate if there are no proposed ways to solve the problem ?
Click to expand...

I've offered up areas that as a gun owner I'm willing to look to as possible restrictions, so perhaps you have also mistaken me as simply a get rid of guns type. I do believe we have a perverse love affair in this country with militaristic weaponry and behaviors - I see it every day in our culture.

Perhaps I'm getting old, but it's certainly more pronounced than when I was young. Sure we played cowboys an Indians, cops and robbers - the violence was not the point however. The violence aspect has become tolerable or worse yet desirable or accepted.

There are clearly other issues involved in this incident - all should be debated, none should be immediately dismissed.
 
Another idea: prevent creating such explosions of hate, by starting teaching very basic ideas of psychology in elementary schools - how people work and what makes them do and feel different things.
Also let them release the steam way before the steam pressure builds up enough for them to do really horrible things.

From what i see in most cases like this one it is leaving the man alone and completely rejected by society that makes them totally numb to the pain they will eventually inflict on others.

To encourage people to look around for the shy loners and maybe make friends with them before something bad happens.
 
Mutant said:
Another idea: prevent creating such explosions of hate, by starting teaching very basic ideas of psychology in elementary schools - how people work and what makes them do and feel different things.
Also let them release the steam way before the steam pressure builds up enough for them to do really horrible things.

From what i see in most cases like this one it is leaving the man alone and completely rejected by society that makes them totally numb to the pain they will eventually inflict on others.

To encourage people to look around for the shy loners and maybe make friends with them before something bad happens.
Click to expand...

On this point you will get no disagreement. We clearly have a society that has moved away from encouraging children to directly interact with each other. We give children iPhones at way to young of ages and they begin the path of dissociative communication practices - taking away the need for direct confrontation or engagement with others. Parents are content to allow children to interact over social technology instead of in person interaction. These are only a one of the current activities being thrust upon future generations all the while dissociating them from many normal and helpful human behaviors an the appropriate emotions.
 
Mutant said:
Also let them release the steam way before the steam pressure builds up enough for them to do really horrible things.

From what i see in most cases like this one it is leaving the man alone and completely rejected by society that makes them totally numb to the pain they will eventually inflict on others.

To encourage people to look around for the shy loners and maybe make friends with them before something bad happens.
Click to expand...
It all sounds nice in theory but in practice there's no way you can predict these. You also make pretty stupid assumption that shy people are potential killers.
 
If i knew most of my countrymen were able to own guns, I'd fucking' flip... seriously i'd pack my bags and head for the gobi desert. I wouldn't trust most of these people with a stick, and I'm even amazed by how many of them have the legal permission to drive a car, as most of them turn into a major psychotic freak once they get behind the wheel

but you guys are far away, so yeah, have at it you wonderful crazy people :D
 
JHA said:
It all sounds nice in theory but in practice there's no way you can predict these.
Click to expand...
It was not about predicting, but about raising better people.

JHA said:
You also make pretty stupid assumption that shy people are potential killers.
Click to expand...
No i did not. You completely missed the meaning.
It was about spreading friendship and love, so no one feels like "it is me vs all the world that hates and despises me".
 
xFkx said:
If i knew most of my countrymen were able to own guns, I'd fucking' flip... seriously i'd pack my bags and head for the gobi desert. I wouldn't trust most of these people with a stick, and I'm even amazed by how many of them have the legal permission to drive a car, as most of them turn into a major psychotic freak once they get behind the wheel

but you guys are far away, so yeah, have at it you wonderful crazy people :D
Click to expand...
Hehehe.
But we can.
The black powder gun market is completely free of regulation on one condition, the gun has to be designed before 1850. [edit]1885 a nie 1850... :)
That includes this monster:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Walker
You can be sure that it will make BIG holes in whatever you point it at.


And the smaller Colt Navy too...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Navy
Used by some of the most famous gunslingers of the old wild west.

You can buy 100% working replicas made by some Italian company.

The fact that we don't see news about bank robberies with Bill Hickoks replica revolvers tells us something good about Polish citizens - they can but they don't.
 
Mutant said:
It was not about predicting, but about raising better people.


No i did not. You completely missed the meaning.
It was about spreading friendship and love, so no one feels like "it is me vs all the world that hates and despises me".
Click to expand...
Maybe you should check again what you wrote:
Mutant said:
Also let them release the steam way before the steam pressure builds up enough for them to do really horrible things.

From what i see in most cases like this one it is leaving the man alone and completely rejected by society that makes them totally numb to the pain they will eventually inflict on others.

To encourage people to look around for the shy loners and maybe make friends with them before something bad happens.
Click to expand...
Seems like you got a lot of predicting and assumptions going on there. Again there's no fucking way you can predict these unless they say it out loud. Loner, shy, rich, famous, social, <insert your stereotype here>, it doesn't really matter. It can be anyone of those.
 
Hoarding guns now cause they are afraid they won't be getting any soon? ha.....should have seen that coming^^
Hopefully they didn't forget to buy enough ammo too, just in case those bastards at DC also plan to restrict that.
 
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