Ever feel like this/how do you force yourself...

[Siren]

Of course medication and counseling complement each other. And what you said -- "Medication should be the last resort, try to avoid it if you can, i'm sure you're strong enough to not need it" -- doesn't indicate that at all. That's akin to telling someone with poor vision to tough it out and only get glasses as a last resort.

First of all, people with poor vision are asked by doctors to tough it out up to some level (a small one, but still). They are asked to not wear their glasses all the time in small degrees of poor vision, and they always get glasses for a degree of bad vision lower than theirs (for example for myopia it would be about half degree less). That's because if they just rely on glasses their vision will only get poorer with time. It's a bit like muscles turning weaker when you don't excercise them at all.

Secondly, your example about people with poor vision and glasses isn't very appropriate. Glasses don't really hurt your health, apart from the potential weakening of the eyesight in the long run. But medication can cause many side-effects to your health, including addiction or resistance or other health problems.
That's why i said medication should be taken "as a last resort" (which is different from saying "don't take it at all" and i didn't even define where the last resort is, so don't jump to conclusions ) and "try to avoid it if you can" (which is again different from saying "avoid it at all costs").
Obviously my point was to not jump in taking medication like candy, thinking that it's a panacea. It's doctors' job to evaluate each person separately and see if they need it or not and if the pros outweigh the cons (and even they can sometimes prescribe unecessary drugs for reasons of their own).

Saying things like:

reasoning and support alone are not enough to combat a physiological disorder

and

Strength has nothing to do with it. Argh.

display a very limited and generalized view on complicated things you lack the basic knowledge of.

 

[S4R]

My point is, try to find the strength inside you first and foremost, if other people (gf, friends) can help you it's all the better. Medication should be the last resort, try to avoid it if you can, i'm sure you're strong enough to not need it.

I can't suggest you would do this directly, but I despise this empowerment dribble people propagate on those who may suffer from severe physiological disorders of the brain. Medication should often be used as a first resort (e.g., schizophrenics, depressed individuals who are immediately suicidal).

Saying things like:

reasoning and support alone are not enough to combat a physiological disorder

and

Strength has nothing to do with it. Argh.

display a very limited and generalized view on complicated things you lack the basic knowledge of.

Reasoning and support aren't enough to successfully combat a physiological disorder. If a person is able to completely overcome their psychological disorder, then they weren't suffering from it in the clinical sense. The best you can hope for from a person suffering from a clinically diagnosed disorder is recognition. It's simple logic, imagine trying to fix a broken fan on your PC with the very same PC fan that is broken.

 

[Taliesin]

If a person is able to completely overcome their psychological disorder, then they weren't suffering from it in the clinical sense.

Im not sure if maybe you're refering to only a few categories of disorders, but at the facility I worked, phobias werent treated with medication, so you're wrong. Phobias can be, and mostly are, overcome by simple "Behaviour Treatment" (if that's the correct term)

Siren: It's true that medication can have negative sideeffects, but can you diagnose Mis from here? Id let a doctor judge whether he's better off with or without medication. I second your point though that inner strength has a lot to do with overcoming psychological disorders, at least to the extent that medication and a doctor arent enough to fix it, you have to have the will to get better as well. It's not a quetion of strength if someone has a psychological disorder or not though, some disorders have a physical component that cannot be changed by mere will, such as shizophrenia or some forms of depression.

Bottom line: Just go see a doctor, he'll know what to do. Good luck

 

[MagSec4]

..I think we all just need a week or two in a tropical island.




I don't claim to know a damn thing; but from what I've read, Misanthrope's problems are to me of the type for which actual chemical treatment should be tried to be kept as a latter resort. It doesn't seem to me like a real clinical psychological problem, at least nothing that can't get better with some support, and some surrounding by good things in life.

 

[rahvin]

Bottom line: Just go see a doctor, he'll know what to do. Good luck

s4r is as close to an actual doctor as we can hope to see express his views here.

 

[S4R]

Im not sure if maybe you're refering to only a few categories of disorders, but at the facility I worked, phobias werent treated with medication, so you're wrong. Phobias can be, and mostly are, overcome by simple "Behaviour Treatment" (if that's the correct term)

I'm certainly not suggesting all disorders require medication. Siren seemed to put forth the notion that empowerment could rid someone of their disorder. I'm suggesting that people cannot reason themselves out of a disorder, i.e., reasoning and support aren't enough to successfully combat a physiological disorder. A person can't read a few books and successfully administer cognitive behavioral therapy to themselves.

 

[S4R]

s4r is as close to an actual doctor as we can hope to see express his views here.

For three more months I'm a certified rape crisis counselour, that's a doctor, of sorts. :Smug:

 

[Lost To Apathy]

I'm in agreement with S4R and Lina on this one. Some of the other responses here sound just like what your average parent would say, you'll be ok just be positive! Obviously Misanthrope is not a teenager with teenangst and he asked to get advice, not to be dismissed as lazy or feeble minded. And what makes it worse is the social anxiety he mentioned, thats not very normal for a healthy person at all, but for someone with a lingering depression that's pretty common. Sitting at home, not going out even when he needs to do important things? That's totally disruptive and you don't need that kind of problem when you're out of work. Cognitive behaviour therapy is great but it wont make all problems go away forever, just help you deal with them in a better way. And sure.. medication is not the sine qua non for everyone and it has side-effects. Just ask yourself and your doctor if they outweigh the benefits before you start them. Dont listen to people without first hand experience and dont listen to people with it, they are often biased!

 

[S4R]

Cognitive behaviour therapy is great but it wont make all problems go away forever, just help you deal with them in a better way.

Not to get too far off-topic on a small technicality, but this is precisely what all treatments for psychological disorders do. No one is cured of their depression, they simply learn to live with it. I just wanted that point to be clear.

Dont listen to people without first hand experience and dont listen to people with it, they are often biased!

And thank you for making this clear. I'd only modify slightly in that rather than rule out such sources entirely, seek the advice of experts as well.

 

[Taliesin]

Classic misunderstanding then Sorry S4R

 

[Siren]

My point is, try to find the strength inside you first and foremost, if other people (gf, friends) can help you it's all the better. Medication should be the last resort, try to avoid it if you can, i'm sure you're strong enough to not need it.

I can't suggest you would do this directly, but I despise this empowerment dribble people propagate on those who may suffer from severe physiological disorders of the brain. Medication should often be used as a first resort (e.g., schizophrenics, depressed individuals who are immediately suicidal).

Siren seemed to put forth the notion that empowerment could rid someone of their disorder.

I already explained myself about that quote.
Please don't read my posts selectively, and don't assume my whole scientific stance from something i said in a specific case, especially when i proceed to explain myself better afterwards. Furthermore, don't assume i'm supporting the ideas you despise just because i don't agree with yours.

Anyway, in what you quoted i was replying specifically to someone who -with my (admittedly limited) psychiatric knowledge and limited knowledge of the situation- seemed to be neither a schizophrenic nor immediately suicidal, and explicitly said that he had no money to see a doctor. I don't see what's wrong with trying to be supportive in that case, since i did in no way tell him to not seek proffesional help. (Actually i told him to avoid medication, assuming he wouldn't see a doctor, and thinking it would be a really bad idea to take any without a medical prescription or attendance).

Reasoning and support aren't enough to successfully combat a physiological disorder. If a person is able to completely overcome their psychological disorder, then they weren't suffering from it in the clinical sense. The best you can hope for from a person suffering from a clinically diagnosed disorder is recognition. It's simple logic, imagine trying to fix a broken fan on your PC with the very same PC fan that is broken.

You seem to assume that clinically important psychological disorders are strictly physiological disorders or that the clinical sense is limited to the physiological aspect of things. If you do, i disagree and i'd like to see what kind of scientific evidence you have on that, but please not here, i don't want to lead this thread further into an abstract debate of different academic approaches to medical matters, at least out of respect to Misanthrope and his problem.

Also, apart from the fact that i don't agree with the notion that "The best you can hope for from a person suffering from a clinically diagnosed disorder is recognition", because i find it underestimating for the patient's potential to be cured, i think you're overestimating the power of clinical diagnosis. You make it sound as if a person only has a disease if they're clinically diagnosed with it, and if they are they're doomed. There isn't just extreme cases of disorders, and the boundaries between sickness and health are often subtle, especially in the psychological field.

Your example about pc fans is too simplistic, the human mind and psyche are a tad more complicated than a pc fan.

I'm certainly not suggesting all disorders require medication. Siren seemed to put forth the notion that empowerment could rid someone of their disorder. I'm suggesting that people cannot reason themselves out of a disorder, i.e., reasoning and support aren't enough to successfully combat a physiological disorder. A person can't read a few books and successfully administer cognitive behavioral therapy to themselves.

I already said i'm not putting forth that notion.
Of course reasoning and support aren't enough to fight psychological disorders when there is a physiological aspect to them, but they are still helpful. And not all psychological illnesses are physiological.
I never said people can read a few books and administer therapy to themselves, but, you know, counselling by proffesionals is some sort of therapy too.

Siren: It's true that medication can have negative sideeffects, but can you diagnose Mis from here? Id let a doctor judge whether he's better off with or without medication. I second your point though that inner strength has a lot to do with overcoming psychological disorders, at least to the extent that medication and a doctor arent enough to fix it, you have to have the will to get better as well. It's not a quetion of strength if someone has a psychological disorder or not though, some disorders have a physical component that cannot be changed by mere will, such as shizophrenia or some forms of depression.

Bottom line: Just go see a doctor, he'll know what to do. Good luck

I completely agree with all that you said.

Of course Mis can't be diagnosed from here, and only a doctor could say what is best for him (and none of us are doctors).
The sad thing is that it's not exactly easy for him to see one.
I do think that Mis should give it a chance though, if he can find a way, especially since it's affecting his everyday life.







@Mis: Sorry, for ruining your thread.

 

[wildfyr]

@Mis: Sorry, for ruining your thread.

Just an observation... I don't think you ruined the thread, Siren.



Hope you feel better soon, Misanthrope!

 

[Siren]

@wildfyr: thanks.

 

[Lina]

How is a thread ruined by debate?

 

[rahvin]

How is a thread ruined by debate?

disagreements hurt the baby in us all.

 

[S4R]

Please don't read my posts selectively, and don't assume my whole scientific stance from something i said in a specific case, especially when i proceed to explain myself better afterwards. Furthermore, don't assume i'm supporting the ideas you despise just because i don't agree with yours.

I can't suggest you would do this directly

You seem to assume that clinically important psychological disorders are strictly physiological disorders or that the clinical sense is limited to the physiological aspect of things.

You seem to assume wrong. I'm well aware of the cognitive/behavioral aspects to these disorders.

Also, apart from the fact that i don't agree with the notion that "The best you can hope for from a person suffering from a clinically diagnosed disorder is recognition",

It's perfectly logical that the best achievement a person can reach in absence of therapy and/or medication is recognition of the problem. Please further your explanation.

because i find it underestimating for the patient's potential to be cured, i think you're overestimating the power of clinical diagnosis.

These disorders aren't "cured," let's be clear -- we are only able to minimize their symptoms.

You make it sound as if a person only has a disease if they're clinically diagnosed with it, and if they are they're doomed. There isn't just extreme cases of disorders, and the boundaries between sickness and health are often subtle, especially in the psychological field

You make it seem as though this was my intention, it was not. The vast majority of people who suffer from these disorders remain undiagnosed, if anything, you underestimate the frequency of these disorders. Aside from that, I agree with the quote.

Your example about pc fans is too simplistic, the human mind and psyche are a tad more complicated than a pc fan.

It was an analogy, nothing more -- the logic still follows.

Of course reasoning and support aren't enough to fight psychological disorders when there is a physiological aspect to them, but they are still helpful. And not all psychological illnesses are physiological.

We're in agreement.

 

[Siren]

How is a thread ruined by debate?

the focus shifts from the person and his problem and noone suggests solutions anymore. it's not that hard to figure out..

 

[|ngenius]

Oh, yeah, going out is mostly boring and lacks of interest, most of the times. The bad aspect is that I'm a very active sort of guy and I would like to have entertaining things to do outside, which very rarely occurs. If our mexican marshmallow is experiencing problems of the sort, I can't but propose to found a club, streaptease girls granted.


|ng.

 

[Lina]

the focus shifts from the person and his problem and noone suggests solutions anymore. it's not that hard to figure out..

I don't think giving misinformation is particularly helpful.

That said, reading this debate, which is a classic one, can help him understand his disorder(s) better and weed through the advice he might get in the future.

Besides, this is Misanthrope we're talking about here. :Smug:

 

[rahvin]

besides - and i'm gonna "shift focus" some more now, sorry - just recently i was noting (thanks to the cue provided to me by a teacher's observation) how the anti-debate policy is gaining ground in society, much to the dismay of the future of discussions where participants are supposed to belong to the same group and exchange opinions that can somehow alter the other's perception of the truth. although in this case i certainly wouldn't say participants belong to similar groups, as the differences in culture and background are too big, it still remains that there is often open hostility towards a confrontation of ideas on a subject whose bases rely on external information. as a rule, you get the "all opinions are equally valid" party clamoring for peace&love, and a wide series of more or less romanticized stereotypes which vary according to the case (on this thread, the whole "you toughen up, tiger, and everything'll be fine" scenario) and are meant to just have everybody agree in the most mindnumbingly retarded way.
in fact, agreeing in a retarded way is what a growing number of people tend to do when presented with the option to express a different point of view, since actually going all the way and having an argument is too expensive in terms of energy and time. it strikes me as interesting how even on the internet, traditionally the breeding ground of flames and disrespect, the vacant smiles and blank stares are becoming so common. i'm a bit sad that a debate is seen by so many as a threat to the constant placid exchange of empty pleasantries.

but let's stop diverting this thread from its intended purpose of telling misanthrope that everything is fine as long as he believes in himself, or something. (i thought about posting this elsewhere or starting a new thread, but it didn't seem important enough).