everybody from london ok?

[Midwinter_melancholY]

50 people killed in a city with seven and a half million citizens, fàt chance Opeth fans from this forum were involved.

"My heart goes out to blabla..." Please man, don't get me started.

[I've deleted the rest of this post because some of you may have been quite offended by it.]

 

[aestusmaris@hotmail.com]

midwinter...don't post the rest of what you were gonna say, what about the 700 and rising who have been injured (many have lost limbs), I know there is probably litlte life for you outside this forum (or the internet) but people are affected, killed or not.Maybe the blasts ain't as bad as 9/11 or the tsunami, or countless other terrorist attacks and natural disasters (or war), but people have died or have been injured, so what the fuck is wrong with condolences in a world where people don't hesitate to put other people down, even if they are on an opeth forum.

 

[Midwinter_melancholY]

Well I've read your posts, Arash, and basically I agree with everything you've put in this thread.

So many 'expressions of compassion', 'opinions' and so on. So many people pretending they actually care. Ok, some of you may care but am I wrong if I say that the majority (indeed) doesn't give a damn at all, but does bother to show some degree of involvement?

Personally, I think it's terrible what happened there (but that's it). But this thought comes together with 'Hold on, this happens everyday in Iraq. I don't see a million topics about that in our Western World? Hell, I don't even see a proper attempt of the Western world to stop the chaos in those regions with the right means (political, not military ffs).' Conclusion, I don't see the point of artificially dramatizing the whole scene on that pompous island.

In fact, I càn't bring up compassion, because, frankly, I couldn't care less. And that's why I don't shów compassion while it would be appropriate. Moreover: I think it would be very hypocrite of me to do so.

Now go ahead everyone. Call me an asshole. After all, I mean every single word of it.

Edit: Aestusmaris, I won't delete a single word of this. You don't get the point of what I said, do you? 'England, the best country in the world'. Sure. I know who I'm dealing with now.

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

it's not the number of people killed, it's the fact that my city was targeted in a direct attack by terrorists that makes this personal (for lack of a better word). during 9/11 i was in new hampshire with a sister in nyc and that was scary enough. actually living in the city that gets attacked makes it an entirely different feeling and i now know what people living in nyc felt like during 9/11.

 

[Brains for breakfast]

midwinter...don't post the rest of what you were gonna say, what about the 700 and rising who have been injured (many have lost limbs), I know there is probably litlte life for you outside this forum (or the internet) but people are affected, killed or not.Maybe the blasts ain't as bad as 9/11 or the tsunami, or countless other terrorist attacks and natural disasters (or war), but people have died or have been injured, so what the fuck is wrong with condolences in a world where people don't hesitate to put other people down, even if they are on an opeth forum.

This is probbalby the most intelligent reply I have read all day

 

[Pitiless Wanderer]

I dont think it's that hypocritical, actually. The world empathises by thick and thin relationships. If New Zealand got attacked by terrorists today and London and the USA had never been attacked before, then I wouldnt 'care' although I would think it was horrible. After experiencing attacks is when one starts paying more attention.

 

[Midwinter_melancholY]

This is probbalby the most intelligent reply I have read all day

Well you should read more, buddy.

 

[Midwinter_melancholY]

it's not the number of people killed, it's the fact that my city was targeted in a direct attack by terrorists that makes this personal (for lack of a better word). during 9/11 i was in new hampshire with a sister in nyc and that was scary enough. actually living in the city that gets attacked makes it an entirely different feeling and i now know what people living in nyc felt like during 9/11.

Yes, but you actually líve in London. Ofcourse you do. I'd feel the same if it happened in my city. But London happens to not to be my city and that of others. Thàt is my point.

 

[aestusmaris@hotmail.com]

So because you don't live in the city that a terrorist (or not?) attack happens, you assume a 'fuck 'em, it ain't me' attitude? Maybe that attitude is why Africa and poor nations starve while rich nations sit by and count their millions.

And yeah, I think England is the best country in the world, seeing as I'm born and bred in the place. Makes sense don't you think?

 

[Arnold Layne]

fhare, were you "outraged" by the earthquake in Iran 1 1/2 years ago which left 40 000 dead? I mean, if your so upset about the stuff in London, you should've cried yourself to sleep each night for a month for 40 000 people.
.

So some-one putting a bomb on a bus, and a natural disaster are the same thing?

They have real terrorists in England, the IRA. Im sure a few diluded people are nothing compared to these mofo's.

Queer (probably posuer) islamic terrorists 0 - London 1.

 

[Arash]

So because you don't live in the city that a terrorist (or not?) attack happens, you assume a 'fuck 'em, it ain't me' attitude? Maybe that attitude is why Africa and poor nations starve while rich nations sit by and count their millions.

That's how it is with everybody. Unless it's americans or brittish who die. Then everybody have to express their symphaties and what-not or else you're a muslim terrorist and mean.
A week after 9/11 (the WTC falling) we had a "quiet moment" at school. The next week 3000 people died in an earthquake in Somalia. Did we have a quiet moment then? No.

o some-one putting a bomb on a bus, and a natural disaster are the same thing?

So the way they die is the important part? What the fuck is up with that? Is it a lesser tradegy because they died in an earthquake? Are their lives worth less? That's just sick, man.

 

[Arnold Layne]

You missed my point, you can't do anything about Earthquakes. I live on a fault line, I could die and there would be nothing I could do about that I accept that, as millions of others do. But if some religeous fuckass put a bomb on my bus and I died, I and others would be pissed of because its not a natural occurance. Its not the importance of life im disputing. Its your use of comparison of mans stupidity, something we have more control over than, nature which we ahve very little control over.

 

[Arash]

I made that comparison of 40 british VS 40 000 iranians for a "fhare" who kept japping about 40 people dying and that we should all be outraged. The way they died is of no consequence to me, as I don't live there.

"The fact that the Muslim community is not outraged over this (and they arn't, by and large) is a testement of how well these people play their manipulation cards."

He seems to demand that all should be outraged.

You're talking about getting pissed. I'm talking about the demand that people show horror that other people have died.
Most politicians on TV (Göran Persson, Bush, Blair) and all partyleaders in Sweden talked mostly about how horrible it was that people died. Why is it more *horrible* than other deaths? That a man could do this to another? Is that so surprising?

The point is that generally among people, Arabs, Africans, Iranians are not worth as much as westerners. 9/11 will always stay. Everybody will say: "Remember 9/11?" for 100 years to come. Noone will say "Remember 9/11 when Pinochet tog control of Chile and killed 3000+ people?". Noone will say: "Remember the 8 year long war when Iraq used mustard, sarine and nervegas on the Iranians and killed over 1 000 000?".
It reminds me of the time terrorists blew up an Africans building, killing over 50 africans and 1 american, and Bill Clinton standing, with tears in his eyes, blabbing about the ONE american who died.

The only thing that might be shocking about this attack is that one never thought of it to happen. It's ordinary that Asians and Africans die in multitudes, but we're not used to Americans and British people fighting wars on their own soil.

 

[Arnold Layne]

Its more horrable because it is for a most part preventable. But now I do see what you are getting at, I cant be bothered typing out a long response. To a certain extent you are right (we should care about fellow man dying) but you could be wrong (I read Earth can only sustain 15 billion people, the millions who die of aids and starving could be natural population control/ selection)

 

[[KOTNO]Narrot]

fhare, don't be so egocentric! as if you would care much for bombings and stuff that happen in other parts of the world. what does a muslim in palestina care for bombings in london? and why do you blame him for not doing so.
the USA are mostly christian state...but ppl there get all outrageous when some christians in indonesia kill some muslims there? surely not.

 

[Arash]

I read Earth can only sustain 15 billion people, the millions who die of aids and starving could be natural population control/ selection

I mainly meant civil wars, oppressive regimes, ordinary wars, natural catastrophies.

 

[Arnold Layne]

I think thats the big failure of LIVE8, through all the talk of aid and feeding people, there was no talk about getting the aid to the people who need it. Its well known alot of aid is hijacked by corrupt governments and militias.

 

[Justin S.]

I can't blame you for thinking the way you do, having newschannels like Fox News in your country.

I dont own a TV, nor do I give any credit to most media outlets. Nice ad hominem.

Causualty figures are highly political. Exactly who killed who in those numbers we will never know. I can assure you that I am very familiar with US military protocol and fire discipline, and that while mistakes happen, we go so far out of our way to prevent casualties that is almost compromises effectiveness (of course it will never be enough for staunch humanists, their job is to kill, not make you feel good inside).

FYI, carpet bombing population centers is a thing of the past. The shift to precision bombing is just as much about limiting unnecessary deaths, as it is military effectiveness.

Many car and roadside bombs are modified artillery munitions that are very destructive. As I said, we have no idea how many of the dead in Iraq are a result of this activity, as well as fighting within the population centers themselves.


EDIT: Wanted to make it clear that my interest doent make me automatically supportive of our Military, or the conflicts it engages in. I am a harsh critic. At the same time, I work hard to get a balanced view.

 

[Justin S.]

For those that are playing the "compare deaths" number game...

That is such a reduction of all the factors that determine what warrants attention.

9/11 isnt the icon that it is becuase "3,000 people died". It was also physically, and psychologically catostrophic. The horrific nature of the attack (planes flying into buildings), the falling and total loss of those buildings (which happen to be both a real, and symbolic representation of the power and infleunce of American economics) and the sheer shock of the unexpected are something truly unique.

This event shaped world politics. X amount of Africans dying doesnt becuase they affect nothing outside of their continent.

 

[Arash]

Well, in that case the insurgants might not kill civilians too. We will never know if it was the Americans bombing the weddings in Afghanistan, or civilians in villages (as they did and admitted last week), or the insurgants who miraculously attained airplanes.
I'm talking about the numbers your goverment releases. Europeans "experts" say as much as 300 000 civilians might have been killed by the Coalition.
And the roadside bombs aren't put there to kill civilians. They usually kill American soldiers.
So far (we don't know about the future), the American and British soldiers have killed far more civilians than the rebels.

I do not care about military protocol and fire discipline. Of course they try not to kill civilians. What good would it do for them? But they're reckless and fire at whoever and whatever they think are "terrorists". We've got the wedding-bombings, the 20 civilians "accidentally" killed in a village in Afghanistan last week, we've got the bomb-shelter in Iraq during the (second) gulfwar, the execution of wounded soldiers/rebels. And then there are the more suspicious ones, like blowing up Al-Jazeera's headquarters both in Iraq and Afghanistan, the bombing of Hotel Palestine, the obliteration of Iraq's watercleaning factories, the total slaughter of Iraqi military during the (second) gulfwar.