everybody from london ok?

[Arnold Layne]

Your a smart dude Justin.

 

[Justin S.]

Your a smart dude Justin.

Thanks for the support (assuming you arent joking ).

I usually get nothing but insults around here.

 

[Arnold Layne]

No insults, what you said about military weapons (carpet bombing being extinct) and 9/11 being about more than dead people is totally true.

 

[aestusmaris@hotmail.com]

It is a relief that there is an actual semi-intellectual (whether it be fact-splurting or not) thread on the Opeth forum, shows there's some brains out there. Fact is, too many innocent people have died in vain, by all hands, American, Iraqi, Brit, Afghani, the list goes on. I don't know about anyone else but I think it is probably due to the fact I am ill-informed (spare the jibes), but anyone with their finger on the metaphorical (or literal) trigger aiming at innocent civilians knowingly will suffer beyond death.

My view of the world is humanity as a majority is evil, so much needless death and hurt caused by others and usually with no remorse. homo sapien as a race is a plight on this good green earth, hell, we've done more harm than good, rainforests cut down, pollution, o-zone holes etc. Sorry, I'm going pretty far off your topic, carry on with your topic, I just needed to vent that off

 

[Arash]

This event shaped world politics. X amount of Africans dying doesnt becuase they affect nothing outside of their continent.

Let's take the overthrow of the Shah in Iran as an example

X - All foreign companies arethrown out of the country.
X - Americans are taken hostage.
X - USA looses an important ally in the Middle East.
X - Iran is no longer a turist attraction.
X - Britain loose all claim to iranian oil (which is alot)
X - One of the most "anti-west" society is created.
X - The mullas fund Hamas and Hisbollah, thus affecting people in Lebanon, Israel, and Syria.
X - As a direct reaction to the Revolution, Iraq declares war.
X - 1 million Iranians die, 500 000 Iraqis.
X - The US, Sweden, France, Sovjet, Israel, Britain, and Germany all make LOADS of money on it.
X - Millions of refugees flee to Europe.
X - A lot of hate towards the "west" and US in particular is created.
X - Iran is declared as part of the "Axes of Evil".

Is this not atleast equal to 9/11?

 

[Justin S.]

Arash, we could go back and forth all day about the particular scenarios...

My point is that the events in London, Iraq, or New York (or anywhere for that matter) need to be framed in a proper context, and examined more in depth than an emotional reaction can offer.

Statistics is not a nice game. For example, you mention errant bombs hitting weddings, children, etc. Do you have any idea of the scope of a city? At any given moment, how many weddings are occuring in a large city? How many children are running around? It is only a matter of time (and probability) before ordinance fired will come into contact with these people. This fact, combined with the tactics of the insurgents/terrorists (insert your prefered name here) make these events even more likely.

Considering the nature of the conflict, and the odds invloved, Id say Im suprised we havent hit more weddings, schools, etc.

 

[Justin S.]

Let's take the overthrow of the Shah in Iran as an example

Is this not atleast equal to 9/11?

They are completely different events, so I dont see how you can compare the "importance" of a complex development in geo-politics to a singular catostrophic terrorist attack.

That said, it is not difficult to see that both of those events are more important, in terms of real effect, then a starving person in Ethiopia.

 

[Arash]

You are right, it would be quite a lenghty discussion.

Just wish to point out the the few wedding-bombings that occured were in Afghani village, where, as a tradition, the participants were firing in the air. American fighterplanes, experiencing this as a threat, bombed. Thus my view of the americans as "triggerhappy". I agree that nowadays bombs are quite accurate, yet when dropped on a school, the accuracy doesn't really help. We've had several incidents where American planes have killed their own allies. Of course it's not on purpose, but it really shows how flawed even these bombs are.

 

[Arash]

They are completely different events, so I dont see how you can compare the "importance" of a complex development in geo-politics to a singular catostrophic terrorist attack.

But I thought you meant like 9/11 lead to the Patriot Act, war in Iraq and Afghanistan, change in american foreign policy and such? Was that not what you meant?

 

[Justin S.]

^ Ah, in terms of future impact. Hard to tell, as they are intertwined, and I cant forsee the future

EDIT: Trying to rank "importance" of events, especially when they are inter-dependent is really impossible. It also lends itself to weird ideas of time.

 

[Arash]

Still don't get it.

You say:

X - The horrific nature of the attack (planes flying into buildings),
X - The falling and total loss of those buildings
X - The sheer shock of the unexpected are something truly unique.
X - This event shaped world politics.

was what made 9/11 memorable.

Am I right so far?

[Edit] I wrote this before I saw your "edit".

 

[fhare]

Glommed response to several Arash posts:

So lets summarize your points:

1. The Earth is evil because people die in earthquakes, and we should all be outraged at the Earth for killing poeple. I guess I should continue work on my planet buster then, so we can take out the Evil Earth once and for all.

2. America is evil because, although we spend much more than any other country in the world on charity, we havn't done enough. Of course if we all became monks and donated all our worldy goods to the rest of the world, it still wouldn't be enough, but that's besides the point. Just admit that you hate America.

3. I should let the terrorists kill me, because I am an evil American, and I have no right to live in peace. Well, I'm glad I know that now, your wisdom has enlightened me. I will just hop on a plane to Pakistan and drop myself off at the nearest mosque for a nice public beheading. Listen, I have a right to live in peace, and so does eveyone else. However when you discard others pursuit of peace by killing them, your own right to peace is forfeit.

4. Terrorists never kill civilians. They never target civilians. They only target American soldiers. I wonder how I missed that one.

5. Terrorists never intentionaly blend into the populus to avoid detection, and thereby endanger all the civilians around them. They would never do that, because they are obviously too busy rescuing baby kittens from the rain barrel and collecting cans for their hunger drives.

6. When Americans are killed, aka 9/11, Americans who lost personal friends, relatives, family, etc. should not feel any more pain than if a person who was killed in (insert your unjust deadly event here) was killed. This is a point of philosophical debate. Who is to say that you should feel more or less about the killing of one over another? Each person will be different. Just becuase I feel more pain, and hence more outrage, because I knew someone who died in any particular unjust event, doesn't mean I don't feel it for others. However humans do not have infinite capacity for expressing emotion, you cannot mourn to the same degree for the loss of every single person who dies on Earth, you would be insane (or perhpas numb). We have a natural defense mechaism against this sort of thing, to keep us all sane (er , debatable, I know).

7. I shouldn't call out that terrorism is unjust and wrong, because lot's of other unjust and wrong events happen that I havn't complained about here specificaly. This is funny. At least in America we allow people to complain and affect our political process. Under the rule of the islamo-fascist terrorsits (aka pre-invasion Afghansistan), I would be executed for dissent. Your emails above would probably get you jailed if not executed. I didn't start this thread, I just got ticked of and did something because of the apologists comments I was reading here.

Bah, your points, although salient in certain philisophical respects, are obvioulsy so screwed up in application, that you make little sense. You have much wisdom to gain.

 

[Arash]

Was that post directed at me?

[Edit] Ah, obviously

 

[wwallinga]

I love how we Americans are responsible for the actions of the idiots we DIDN'T elect. I was all for going to the Middle East right after 9/11. But now, you have to ask - why are we still there? What have we gained?

I'm moving to Canada.

 

[Longinus]

So because you don't live in the city that a terrorist (or not?) attack happens, you assume a 'fuck 'em, it ain't me' attitude? Maybe that attitude is why Africa and poor nations starve while rich nations sit by and count their millions.

Donations to most troubled african nations are idiotic. Having that attitude is actually helping the africans. In most of the cases, the "presidents" use the money for themselves, it's simple, really. By donating money, all oyu do is help them oppress their people. Alas, the irony...

 

[Arash]

1. Firstly, the US does not give the most charity in the world. In total it does, but not when compared to GDP. Secondly, where does half of this money go? Saudi Arabia, Egypt, El Salvador?

2. You say:

"When Americans are killed, aka 9/11, Americans who lost personal friends, relatives, family, etc. should not feel any more pain than if a person who was killed in (insert your unjust deadly event here) was killed."

This was not what I meant. I only meant that you shouldn't expect others to care as much. It seemed to me that you wished for the "muslim society" (whatever that is) to express their sympathies. This is where I pointed out incidents with earthquakes, as these are as remote to you as the "London-Bombing" is to most of them.

3. I am not sure which terrorists you mean. Of course terrorists kill civilians too, I haven't claimed otherwise.

4. I wasn't trying to defend terrorists in any way. I simply said Iraqi insurgent's bombs have so far in majority been directed at soldiers and police.

I didn't really mean to madden you, fhare, but it was your comment:

"The fact that the Muslim community is not outraged over this (and they arn't, by and large) is a testement of how well these people play their manipulation cards."

to which I responded with the Earthquake-scenario.

 

[WhiteBeastofWotan]

i think it would be funny if the british started yelling "The terrorists are coming! The Terrorists are coming!"

 

[aestusmaris@hotmail.com]

What about donating to charities who bring support to the poor in starving nations, red cross, oxfam, world vision, think about it, If every person in the world donated a small sum of money, £2 a month or every two months to organisations that actually use the money to get aid to the people who need it, that would be around 12 billion a year from everyones collective pockets, plus the £25 billion increase by the rich nations by 2010 (I think thats the right year). If everyone does carry on with a 'fuck 'em' attitude, it don't do no one any good, and it never will.

 

[Arnold Layne]

people are supposed to die. that wouldn't be a good idea at all

How was family guy tonight?

 

[Justin S.]

The massive assumption with charity (versus aid, which is short term, supposedly) is that the idea of scarcity is a phantom. Whats also laughable is that most people think a balanced distribution of funds is compatible with Capitalist economics, that profit doesnt inherently involve and uneven outcome. "Profit" (getting more than you put it) is the antithesis of equal.

Because the idea of profit violates the fundamentals of physics in a balanced system (would entail receiving >100% efficiency), someone must be on the short end of the stick... hence global capitalism.

To change whats going on would take much more than throwing around money.