Forget death/doom, ND is now death/emo!

X

xSamhainx

Metal Massacre
Mar 3, 2003
70
1
8
I know that this is incendiary, but I have to speak my mind because.. well i just do,and I can thanks to the glory of the internet. Paul could most likely totally beat my ass, so it's nice I can safely critique him from here behind my computer desk with a nice drink in my hand, attempting to listen to "Pale haunt.." again. Attempting....

I like November's Doom, and like a friend you see going downhill that you have to perhaps grab by the collar and shake violently, I feel ND needs a little shake.. from across the internet of course. Or maybe I just want to rant a little. In any case, I got my copy of "Pale Haunt Departure" a couple weeks ago, and all I can say is... what the hell is this? This cd is not growing on me at all, save a couple songs which I immediately liked, unlike the last two I own which I like very much.

My first experience with ND came with "Of Sculptured Ivy & Stone Flowers", a cd which I really liked and to this day still play regularly. Secondly came "To Welcome the Fade", which I wasnt very fond of at first, but then grew to really like almost as much as "Sculptured Ivy..". "Pale Haunt Departure" started out on a great note, with the title track being easily in my top 3 ND songs ever, but after that the cd goes rapidly downhill. I almost feel like I was ripped off, as the title track, which sold me on the cd, is not indicative of the rest of the cd.

I understand from what Ive read that ND doesnt want to be classified as death/doom, well you dont have to worry about that my friends, because youre steadily becoming classified as death/emo. Every song is starting to become essentially the exact same, and with the female vox totally gone now, it really is starting to show. It's boring, quite frankly and actually embarassing when it all starts sounding like Cookie Monster totally moaning and groaning over and over again about how absolutely pathetic he is. Hey, I didnt say it, YOU DID.

Here is the new November's Doom song, I havent heard it yet, but this is the new unreleased track. Maybe it's not exactly it, but it's close-

"Im sorry. Im guilty. Im a Failure"
"Ive finally come.... to reeealiiize- Im sorry. Im guilty. Im a shadow of the cookie monster I was before."
"Ive just now come to finally unnnnderstand, Im dirt. My little angel, you mean the world to me, and Im so sorry, so sorry Im a failure.
"I can finally reeeealize.. All you can do is watch me destroy myself, because well... Im dirt"
"When Im dead, just try and remember me, even though Im nothing but shit. I cant sleep at night. This sucks"
"Im sorry!!! (echoes) Im a FAILURE! (echoes)"

It's just the same fucking thing over and over again, I finally just start snickering, it's unbearable. I like extreme vox, most of the stuff I listen to could affectionately be termed "cookie monster". I like it, paul has a great cm voice, but if i hear cookie monster groaning about how he "realizes" one more time, Im gonna hurl. I also listen to depressive, doomy metal constantly, it's my favorite genre of metal, I dont like power or happy shit, period. I can tell you this, early Anathema was easily one of the most miserable bands ever.
However, they were even able to switch things up a little lyrically, as was Katatonia, MDB, Paradise Lost, even November's Doom used to. "Of Sculptured Ivy.." showed great lyrical depth and diversity, it was and still is an interesting cd to listen to. "To Welcome.." was the big dive into "Im such a failure"-ville, but it tended to work because:

A. it was musically, very strong and well-executed,
B. the emo crap hadnt been done to death thematically yet.(come to realize yet again,failure,loved ones,pathetic,sniffle)
C. Yes, the female vocals helped, and with their loss went
D. the bit of romance that was a nice aspect of the lyrics of that particular cd

Pale Haunt Departure has practically none of what worked, and a total redux of the pretentious emo shit. One long drone besides a few nice segments, such as the strong opener, and suprisingly Autumn Reflection is pretty cool. After that it's:

"Ive come to reeealize... blah blah blah" My kid is so wonderful, little angel, how could she love such a pathetic ogre such as me. Im all alone now, everyone hates me. I failed you. I failed me. Hell, I even failed the friggen Sparkletts guy, i couldnt even answer the door on time. Wahh!"

Dont dare call us Doom/Death, were DEATH EMO!!

COOKIE MONSTER WITH A RAZOR BLADE! GROVER WITH A GINSU!

Sorry fellas, just had to say it. Maybe let someone else do some writing or something. Your music all sounds the same now, youve become a completely boring bunch of navel-starers to listen to, and that's a fucking shame.
 
If I hear one more idiot say anything about Paul's lyrics being whiney, pathetic, self serving whatever. I'm gonna scream!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Try living with a degenerative spinal disease that leaves you in excruciating pain 24/7 for one week let alone 6 years. Which proabably wont let up until he's paralized & maybe not even then because it runs all through out his spine. Not being able to sleep at all because of the pain. Paul's lyrics are his only means of therapy so to all you morans out there please just f/o & die. I can't even listen to half the songs off the last too albums because of the angst. I guess Paul you just need to go back to making up shit for all the dummies out there, that can handle it.
 
Oh brother.....


I could go on a large ranting rebuttal to all of this, but what's the point? The bottom line is this...

We write the music and lyrics that we believe in. Paul writes about stuff that is important and meaningful and REAL to him. A true fan of the band would know enough about him and the meaning behind his lyrics to know that what he is singing about is truth, and not just the typical poetic run of the mill stuff like the old "Sculptured Ivy" lyrics were.

People are welcome to come here and offer their opinions and critiques of our music and art, etc. even if it means they dislike something we've done. But you sir, are a fucking jagoff, plain and simple. Not because you dislike us now or heartily disagree with our current musical direction, but because you felt the need to put it across in such a snivelly, smart assed and insulting manner. This wasn't constructive criticism that would make us seriously ponder and think about your points. It's merely nasty bullshit that you felt you could safely get away with saying and give yourself a hard-on doing it from "across the internet" in an anonymous fashion. To me, that's way more pussy and "emo" (stupid fucking term) than any lyric Paul has ever written.

We stand behind what we do as a band, because it's what we believe in, even if it displeases the naysayers like yourself. People enjoying what we do is a nice bonus for us. But ultimately we aim to please ourselves musically first and foremost. Those who can no longer come along on the ride with us are more than welcome to go elsewhere. Just don't think for one second that your juvenile wise-assed insults are going to "shake things up" for us at all, other than giving us some brief albeit mild annoyance. You had an opportunity to make a valid arguement perhaps (that I'd still disagree with) but you blew it by being the typical insulting internet asshole.

I'm always open for a good debate, as long as it's done intelligently and fairly. Sadly, your's was neither.
 
well, "Stevie", not everyone is privy to Pauls private life, or the lives of any of the bands they listen to for that matter. I didnt know of his plight, nor do I think that it's something to laugh about or anything.

That said, heavy metal is an arena where some pretty rough things get thrown around no matter who is on the receiving end, that's just the way it is. Honesty is my only excuse. Not to mention the fact all he's done is run himself down in his lyrics anyway, it's a one-track thing. Im not really saying anything he hasnt already to an extent, said himself. You cant even listen to half the songs youself Stevie, "because of the angst", and I'M WRONG?

No Im wrong because I'm not fucking clairvoyant, and therefore able to mechanically spoonfeed myself the next ND death/emo dirge simply because the artist is actually literally suffering. It's a reason, but it's no excuse. I'm not a "true fan", I guess

Im sorry Paul, it must suck horribly. If it makes you feel any better, I'm on Prednisone 7 months out of the fucking year with my health issues as well. That doesnt mean if i sit down and write about it, it's automatically GOLD. Do the band and your fans a favor, give someone else the pen already.

-edit
woah, another response in the time I was respondingh, word gets around quick.
See, this is the glory of the internet, to be able right now to talk with a band that Ive been listening to. None of this was a factor in the days of yore, who'd have ever thought this would be possible. Pissed with the band? Go have words with them online! Love it

Anyway, as for the second ND'er to appear, a "true fan" doesnt necessarily know jack about the bands personal lives, dont pull that rank shit on me. Im a true fan, ok, Ive done nothing but blab about you guys to anyone who'll listen. A true fan listens to and likes a band, and tells his friends and what not about it, he is not required to delve into their personas. Just because Im a fan, doesnt suddenly mean I lose my standards, a true fan is not a sycophant. A true fan tells you what he thinks, not necessarily what you want to hear. Sorry if the way I said it hurt your wittle feelings, I wasnt aware that heavy metal had become so goddamn Oprah, and I wasnt aware Paul was beyond reproach. What in the fuck!
 
xSamhainx,

I wasn't going to bother to respond to this, because in all honesty, I don't write the lyrics for you, or the fans. I write them for me, so it really doesn't bother me if you like them or not. I will not change for anyone, other then myself, and right now I need things as they are as a form of therapy. If you don't like what I write, or the style in which I write them, there's a huge over-saturation of bands in the scene who choose to write pretentious, poetic bullshit. Go listen to them instead.

I'm responding because you made it very personal.

You know what's a fucking shame, it's a shame you felt the need to personally attack me, as you said, behind the cowardly confines of your chair, because of lyrics you don't like. It's music, not a cure for cancer. Every now and then, one of you comes out of the woodwork, straps on the internet muscles, and I find myself needing to defend my lyrical position, and explain myself. It gets tiring.

You seem to have me all figured out, don't you? My lyrics are very real, and the issues are more deeply rooted then you'll ever know, and thankfully many dedicated fans of the band know the reasons why I write what I write. It's been written about on this forum, and magazines like Metal Maniacs, where I told the entire story. It doesn't take a "true fan" to know, it just takes a slight bit of research.

As far as your praise on the lyrics in Sculptured Ivy, I have said publicly, many times, the lyrics I wrote before To Welcome the Fade were complete bullshit, and a total made up farce. Garbage, with little actual meaning. I wrote in a style that I thought the fans of the genre wanted to hear. So, you say "Sculptured Ivy... showed great depth and diversity." You have no idea how easy it was for me to write that crap. There's no heart behind it, no sense of who I am, and certainly no truth to most of it. Maybe some mindless drones like nonsense better, and there's a lot out there to choose from, but to the people who enjoy honesty, those are the opinions that matter to me.

I made the choice to not write poetic crap anymore. I made the decision to actually be honest, and knew I'd be opening myself up to people like yourself, and your criticism. When your band records it's 6th full length, and gets praise for honesty, and you receive countless letters and emails from fans all over the world, who thank me for writing lyrics that help them through miserable times in their life, then we can compare notes and opinions. Until then, the old cliche works well here... Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one.

I won't try to convince anyone that the next CD will be different. Lyrically, It's written by me, and the struggle is the same in my life. I still deal with physical pain, pain killer addiction, insomnia, depression, and my lack of faith. My daughter is still the shining light in my life, my strength, and the very reason I'm still on this earth, and I will STILL continue to put my thoughts and feelings into our songs, as my therapy, not to please you. So, for a fan like you, you still have the CD's we've recorded like Sculptured Ivy, and The Knowing. Enjoy them, you'll never get another from us.

Now, for you to come to our forum, to purposely call me out, and spit venom at me, without anything constructive to say, for the sole reason of not liking my lyrical approach, or my cookie monster style vocal, and to be nothing but a total jag off about it, even stooping as low as to poke fun at the feelings I have for my daughter, and choose to write about them, you brought this to a whole different level of personal attack. For that, you're a coward.

If you're goal was to hurt my feelings, you failed. If you thought you would shake the foundation of this band, and force us to change, you failed. If you thought I would even give a shit about your opinion, you failed. The only thing you accomplished by your post was to make yourself look like a typical internet, basement dwelling, living with the parents, 15 year old loser. I've wasted all the time and energy I will waste on you. You got more of an explanation then you deserve, and I did it as politely as possible.

Do me a favor, don't buy the next CD, don't even bother to steal it from the internet, and listen to it. It's not for you, and frankly it will just disgust you even more. A fan like you I'm happy to lose.
 
Oh come on, don't give me that horseshit. You didn't "hurt my wittle feelings". It's just that sort of shit is precisely what I'm talking about. You can either offer up opinions intelligently and without having to resort to throwing high-school type insults around, or you can't. I stand by what I said in the last post- you had the chance to speak your mind and offer up an intelligent, mature (though I guess that is a bit much to expect from many people in this scene) opinion and instead you resorted to just taking the "hey here's my chance to be a condescending asshole to this band because I hate their new cd and I'm anonymous on here!" route. The fact is that you wanted very much to hurt our feelings and shake us up or whatever the hell you want to call it, and instead you just sadly came off as an asshole, and any chance of having a substantial point to make about quality of music or performance was lost. Period. So you don't like Paul's lyrics, big fucking deal. I might someday meet you in person and think you have a voice like a ten year old girl for all I know, but I can guarantee that I'd still have some decency and enough maturity to not feel the need to seek you out and toss overly condescending insults your way because of it. As a "fan" you have the right and ability to come to our forum and tell us what you like and dislike, but don't think for a moment that any of us in this band HAS to sit here and watch you talk down to us and be seriously insulting just because you disagree with our current fucking direction. "What in the fuck!" back at ya, bud.

And I don't expect everyone who listens to us to automatically know about Paul's condition. But my point is this... you were so quick to come on here and throw insults and accusations towards Paul for his lyrical direction, rather than first inquiring as to WHY the lyrics have changed so drastically over the years. I guess I should have phrased one thing a bit differently earlier....a "true fan" might not necessarily know about Paul's plight and true life inspiration for his lyrics, but I think a "true fan" would at least give us more of a chance to discuss and explain ourselves if an honest intelligent question on the matter was put forth. When someone like yourself, I don't care how much of a fan or not, comes off the way you did, I'm sorry but it doesn't appear much to myself (nor anyone else I'd wager to bet) that you're much of an ally or ever really was.

Neither Paul nor myself is "beyond reproach". Someone doesn't like something we do or say or have performed, yes you ARE free to speak your mind about it. But as I stated before, I would have hoped for a bit more maturity and a better approach with it than you came across with. With friends like you, who needs enemies eh?

And if we really were crying about this with our "wittle" hurt feelings, we could quite easily have just deleted your thread in the first place. But as you can see, we still granted you space on OUR forum (yes, free world or not, it is our forum) to speak your mind, even if we don't like how you went about it. I'm sick of this bullshit where the "fans" and critics think they can be as big-mouthed and insulting as they want to be towards the bands, but the bands offer up their two cents and suddenly we're being called names in return for that. What a bunch of bullshit. Heavy metal doesn't need to go "Oprah" but some manners and decency shouldn't be too much to ask for from anyone, metal fan or not.
 
xSamhainx said:
I know that this is incendiary, but I have to speak my mind because.. well i just do,and I can thanks to the glory of the internet. Paul could most likely totally beat my ass, so it's nice I can safely critique him from here behind my computer desk with a nice drink in my hand, attempting to listen to "Pale haunt.." again. Attempting....

I like November's Doom, and like a friend you see going downhill that you have to perhaps grab by the collar and shake violently, I feel ND needs a little shake.. from across the internet of course. Or maybe I just want to rant a little. In any case, I got my copy of "Pale Haunt Departure" a couple weeks ago, and all I can say is... what the hell is this? This cd is not growing on me at all, save a couple songs which I immediately liked, unlike the last two I own which I like very much.

My first experience with ND came with "Of Sculptured Ivy & Stone Flowers", a cd which I really liked and to this day still play regularly. Secondly came "To Welcome the Fade", which I wasnt very fond of at first, but then grew to really like almost as much as "Sculptured Ivy..". "Pale Haunt Departure" started out on a great note, with the title track being easily in my top 3 ND songs ever, but after that the cd goes rapidly downhill. I almost feel like I was ripped off, as the title track, which sold me on the cd, is not indicative of the rest of the cd.

I understand from what Ive read that ND doesnt want to be classified as death/doom, well you dont have to worry about that my friends, because youre steadily becoming classified as death/emo. Every song is starting to become essentially the exact same, and with the female vox totally gone now, it really is starting to show. It's boring, quite frankly and actually embarassing when it all starts sounding like Cookie Monster totally moaning and groaning over and over again about how absolutely pathetic he is. Hey, I didnt say it, YOU DID.

Here is the new November's Doom song, I havent heard it yet, but this is the new unreleased track. Maybe it's not exactly it, but it's close-

"Im sorry. Im guilty. Im a Failure"
"Ive finally come.... to reeealiiize- Im sorry. Im guilty. Im a shadow of the cookie monster I was before."
"Ive just now come to finally unnnnderstand, Im dirt. My little angel, you mean the world to me, and Im so sorry, so sorry Im a failure.
"I can finally reeeealize.. All you can do is watch me destroy myself, because well... Im dirt"
"When Im dead, just try and remember me, even though Im nothing but shit. I cant sleep at night. This sucks"
"Im sorry!!! (echoes) Im a FAILURE! (echoes)"

It's just the same fucking thing over and over again, I finally just start snickering, it's unbearable. I like extreme vox, most of the stuff I listen to could affectionately be termed "cookie monster". I like it, paul has a great cm voice, but if i hear cookie monster groaning about how he "realizes" one more time, Im gonna hurl. I also listen to depressive, doomy metal constantly, it's my favorite genre of metal, I dont like power or happy shit, period. I can tell you this, early Anathema was easily one of the most miserable bands ever.
However, they were even able to switch things up a little lyrically, as was Katatonia, MDB, Paradise Lost, even November's Doom used to. "Of Sculptured Ivy.." showed great lyrical depth and diversity, it was and still is an interesting cd to listen to. "To Welcome.." was the big dive into "Im such a failure"-ville, but it tended to work because:

A. it was musically, very strong and well-executed,
B. the emo crap hadnt been done to death thematically yet.(come to realize yet again,failure,loved ones,pathetic,sniffle)
C. Yes, the female vocals helped, and with their loss went
D. the bit of romance that was a nice aspect of the lyrics of that particular cd

Pale Haunt Departure has practically none of what worked, and a total redux of the pretentious emo shit. One long drone besides a few nice segments, such as the strong opener, and suprisingly Autumn Reflection is pretty cool. After that it's:

"Ive come to reeealize... blah blah blah" My kid is so wonderful, little angel, how could she love such a pathetic ogre such as me. Im all alone now, everyone hates me. I failed you. I failed me. Hell, I even failed the friggen Sparkletts guy, i couldnt even answer the door on time. Wahh!"

Dont dare call us Doom/Death, were DEATH EMO!!

COOKIE MONSTER WITH A RAZOR BLADE! GROVER WITH A GINSU!

Sorry fellas, just had to say it. Maybe let someone else do some writing or something. Your music all sounds the same now, youve become a completely boring bunch of navel-starers to listen to, and that's a fucking shame.
Click to expand...

What on earth would you want him to sing about forgodsake?! I suppose your one of these die hard metal fans that believe it 'tr00 metul' should be sung about 'Glorious' war and Vikings or possibly even Dragons if your beyond help. Lol @ you thinking music should not be about love and true and personal emotions.
 
I'm gonna agree with this idiot on one thing, and that is that the title track is not indicitave of the rest of the album and its really the only song i can listen to...but hey thats me...but the lyrics are really heartfelt and personal.

Novembers Paul said:
I don't write the lyrics for you, or the fans. I write them for me, so it really doesn't bother me if you like them or not. I will not change for anyone, other then myself
Click to expand...

and thats the way it should be.
 
I've had it up to here with post like this,this is the second time in little more then one week I read something written by someone who thinks he knows it all!... you all come barging in with an aproach that goes about absolutly nothing!! Whats got into you ppl,I'm sorry to say this but it seems ppl think more with their ass then their brains nowadays,isn't there anybody outside who can considder other ppl's feelings anymore? I don't know does it make you feel good to be insulting or make fun of someone?
xSamhainx,You probbably never tried to listen to these last two albums with your heart.. assuming that you have one...my advice try it,and then judge!!
 
Wow. I'm all for expressing opinions, but this rant went quite a bit middle schoolish.

I consider Paul a very good friend first, and a vocalist that I am a fan of secondly. I applaud his ability and willingness to express his personal life honestly, through his lyrics. I would much rather listen to music with some true meaning to it than to hear yet another "RAWR, ODIN!!!" or "fuck the man!" lyric.

I know his pain and his struggles are life consuming for him, how the HELL is he supposed to write about anything else? If anyone knows what that sort of life is like, it's me, we have discussed these things many many times. Constant pain/discomfort, daily cocktails of pills, doctor visits every week, and worrying every night that you won't wake up in the morning is no existence. If writing lyrics is his outlet, then fucking good for him. He does it well, and the final product is amazing.

There are plenty of people in the world, including myself, that understand and live the way Paul has to. ND has made plenty of fans that either have the same problems, know someone who does, or have imaginations and can appreciate the lyrics. Paul and the band don't need, or want as it seems, your appreciation for them.
 
We have an open forum here. He, just like anyone else has the right to express their feelings, and since this was not an off topic rant in an existing thread, we chose not to delete it, (and asked the Moderator to let it alone) and to respond. Most bands would delete posts like this in a second, so not to let other fans see something like this. Not us. We'll let you speak, and you should fully expect a rebuttal. Too many people feel they can say what ever they wish on the internet with no consequence. We've had people approach us at shows, and tell us what they like and even dislike about the band, and it's done in a respectable manner. This post was not.

I can guarantee you all something, not many people have the balls to walk up to someone and say things like this to their face, because there could be instant repercussions. We accept this, and instead of ignore it, we'll speak our minds as well, only we're not being an anonymous coward.
 
I respect your opinion Paul. Deleting this thread would be like acting as if it never occured. It should be read so hence the band members and fans can shed light on this hurtful issue and hence proclaim a stance against it, and similar posts in the future.
 
We've gotten these types of messages before. Just let him continue to dig his own hole! It shouldn't even be dignified with a response, he'll make/has made a fool of himself and will probably continue to do so.

Anyone going to see Tom Waits in August?
 
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