lord667
=UM=Heartburn
That Big Bang website would take me a year of study to fully understand and see whether or not its statements are flawed...another thing to throw onto the pile of stuff I'm undecided on, I suppose.
God?
- Thread starter TotenMitMacht
- Start date
Demonspell
cheating the polygraph
I've alternately identified myself as an atheist and an existential spiritualist...I've always been skeptical about religion and object completely to acts of intolerance committed in its name, but I do believe some intangible forces do exist and have the power to influence the paths our lives take...
Kronikle66
Everybody dies alone
Poof Daddy... you might get in trouble for posting that link... you should probably edit that post.
-Kronikle
-Kronikle
Pharaoh
Member
ErikSchierboom
Prog newbie
- Mar 21, 2004
- 97
- 0
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I'm agnostic and have nothing against religion, it's just that I don't know if there's something out there. What I am opposed to is the extremely firm and unmoving nature of some believers. If people still want to believe that the earth was created a couple of thousand years ago and in no more than seven days, that's their business but I find that very odd considering the huge amounts of scientific counter-evidence. Wars which are waged to convert or eradicate others because of different beliefs are just stupid. Please read that line carefully, I don't say religion is stupid just that wars which are waged due to or on behalf of religion are stupid. That doesn't mean that religion is a bad thing. It's principles are mostly great (no killing etc.) and religion can really help people get through rough times.
You just gotta remember, kazahana, just because you disagree with that one guy doesn't mean you have to disagree with the religion. He's just as human as the rest of us, title or none, so in my mind he doesn't know the thoughts of God with any more accuracy than the rest of us.
Which brings me to how I'm not too fond of organized religion. God? Sure, believe what you like. But religion? Seems like a form of control to me.
As for my beliefs, I haven't been really sure for a long time... about 10 years or so, now. Hahaha, and I'm only 18. I'm spending a long-ass time figuring this out.
SilentRealm
Member
now im interested to see what the banned post was lol.
i personally get turned right off religion with all the wars and stuff over it, and very definately by the blind belief bible bashing christians that think all you need to do is follow jesus and thats it, you're 'in'. They've never read any other theological books and don't want to, and think the bible is the be all and end all of literature. I like theological books having been raised in a pretty religious environment (but we had a wide range of books on all sorts of things because my mum is a bit of a rare esoteric book hound).
I think its a personal thing that its up to each individual person to follow whatever their heart truly tells them, not what gets programmed into them by the society they grow up in, and each persons perception will bend a little for what suits them.
I'm at the stage of classifying myself as Catholic because its what I've been baptised, but Ive rebelled against religion and want to find whatever answers are out there on my own. So I'm not religious whatsoever.
I do however have enormous respect for Buddhism (and Hindu to a smaller degree) because its so peaceful, no one tries to convert anyone else or push their views, they're just about self discovery and triumph of mind over body which is an admirable quality to attain.
i personally get turned right off religion with all the wars and stuff over it, and very definately by the blind belief bible bashing christians that think all you need to do is follow jesus and thats it, you're 'in'. They've never read any other theological books and don't want to, and think the bible is the be all and end all of literature. I like theological books having been raised in a pretty religious environment (but we had a wide range of books on all sorts of things because my mum is a bit of a rare esoteric book hound).
I think its a personal thing that its up to each individual person to follow whatever their heart truly tells them, not what gets programmed into them by the society they grow up in, and each persons perception will bend a little for what suits them.
I'm at the stage of classifying myself as Catholic because its what I've been baptised, but Ive rebelled against religion and want to find whatever answers are out there on my own. So I'm not religious whatsoever.
I do however have enormous respect for Buddhism (and Hindu to a smaller degree) because its so peaceful, no one tries to convert anyone else or push their views, they're just about self discovery and triumph of mind over body which is an admirable quality to attain.
Jax
Forum Goddess
MorphineChild205
Lt. Horatio Caine
I myself have a strong dislike for organized religion of any kind. A person can have their beliefs and keep them to themselves, or share them with others. I see nothing wrong with that. But it's when they want you to "donate" this and "fund" that - that's when I draw the line.
"Donate $20 to our church for renovations in the name of God (so the priests can spiff up the rectory with a big-screen TV, the finest of wines, and little vacuum robots...oh, and let's not forget the full digital media center with surround sound for the convent). The power of Christ compels you! Don't wait, donate today!"
I was schooled as a Catholic up until high school, so I was brought up with The Bible. It's a thumping good read, but to me, nothing more than fairy tales. Who wrote it? Were they psychologically damaged? Where are the Apostles' skeletal remains? Did they like bananas? There's almost no way to answer these questions. Find me scientific evidence that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and I'll believe it. Until then, I'll stick with my belief that there is a higher being, or entity, that created us. I believe there is a Divine Ruler, and that we will all see him/her when we die.
"Donate $20 to our church for renovations in the name of God (so the priests can spiff up the rectory with a big-screen TV, the finest of wines, and little vacuum robots...oh, and let's not forget the full digital media center with surround sound for the convent). The power of Christ compels you! Don't wait, donate today!"
I was schooled as a Catholic up until high school, so I was brought up with The Bible. It's a thumping good read, but to me, nothing more than fairy tales. Who wrote it? Were they psychologically damaged? Where are the Apostles' skeletal remains? Did they like bananas? There's almost no way to answer these questions. Find me scientific evidence that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and I'll believe it. Until then, I'll stick with my belief that there is a higher being, or entity, that created us. I believe there is a Divine Ruler, and that we will all see him/her when we die.
Hyoukinmono
Real Man
I guess I'm the one devout Christian AND supporter of organized religion here, so I'll have to speak up for our side!
It's clear that there have been a lot of horrible things done in the name of religion, but there have been a lot of horrible things done in the name of other things, too. Stalin's slaughtered millions weren't victims of a religious crusade (unless we consider Communism to be a type of religion). Most wars aren't about religion. Religion gets used as an excuse, but it's rare that they are actually "holy wars." The true adherents to the religions, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist, or whatever, don't have anything to do with starting or running the wars. Organized religion gets a bad rap from a non-representative miniscule minority.
My 40 years of experience in my church have been overwhelmingly filled with positive experiences--many of them experiences that were possible because of the existence of the church organization. Even just considering the millions of dollars of humanitarian aid that goes all over the world, something that government never has and never will be able to do with efficiency and effectiveness, the church benefits the world. The only organizations that have ever been able to effectively, efficiently, and consistently render such aid have been religious organizations. The negative results of organized religion are anomalies.
So, yes, I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the Bible, etc. Living a life of strict adherence (or at least trying my best to) to doctrine, commandments, etc., and trying to adhere to a higher standard, has been an incredibly freeing experience, not a binding one, or one in which I've been controlled. The requirements and standards are tough, but everybody is free to reject it. Anything that is worth anything takes a lot of work and a lot of sacrifice.
Physical evidence is not the reason for my belief. A spiritual witness of the truth of what I believe is what keeps me on that path. Something more certain and unquestionable than seeing or touching evidence. It's hard to describe the experience. It's got to be experienced to be understood. Kind of like trying to explain what salt tastes like. It tastes, uh, salty! There is evidence more powerful than physical senses and human, mortal reason. (It's probably hard to believe that this is being written by a highly skeptical academic! )
Some people say that a belief in God is for the weak. In my experience, though, the strongest people I know are believers. It takes a lot of strength to adhere to the strict standards of some churches. And some of us struggle a lot with it, but are better for the struggle. "That which does not kill me only makes me stronger." (Hahaha. I'm quoting an atheist!)
So don't discount the good because of some negatives that are certainly there. I've been the victim of religious persecution from certain so-called Christian churches. They were some of the most un-Christian people that I have ever met. But I've had enough experience in life to know that they are the exceptions. I know that the Islamist extremists that cut people's heads off are nothing like ANY of my many Muslim friends. I know that the Catholic officials that tortured people for heresy are nothing like the many Catholics that I work and associate with and highly respect. (Notre Dame was even going to give me a whole bunch of money to go there! ) I know that the brutal Buddhist soldier monks in medieval Japan are nothing like my friends that are Buddhist priests.
A lot of atheists are proud of being open-minded; unfortunately that open-mindedness frequently goes out the window when it comes to viewing the positive aspects of religion. (I'm not making the statement about anyone here, just a general observation.) Even though I disagree with the basic belief system of atheism, I can respect atheists who are honest and insightful enough to recognize the great good that organized religion had done and continues to do in the world. Isn't it better to build up than to tear down anyway?
It's clear that there have been a lot of horrible things done in the name of religion, but there have been a lot of horrible things done in the name of other things, too. Stalin's slaughtered millions weren't victims of a religious crusade (unless we consider Communism to be a type of religion). Most wars aren't about religion. Religion gets used as an excuse, but it's rare that they are actually "holy wars." The true adherents to the religions, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist, or whatever, don't have anything to do with starting or running the wars. Organized religion gets a bad rap from a non-representative miniscule minority.
My 40 years of experience in my church have been overwhelmingly filled with positive experiences--many of them experiences that were possible because of the existence of the church organization. Even just considering the millions of dollars of humanitarian aid that goes all over the world, something that government never has and never will be able to do with efficiency and effectiveness, the church benefits the world. The only organizations that have ever been able to effectively, efficiently, and consistently render such aid have been religious organizations. The negative results of organized religion are anomalies.
So, yes, I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the Bible, etc. Living a life of strict adherence (or at least trying my best to) to doctrine, commandments, etc., and trying to adhere to a higher standard, has been an incredibly freeing experience, not a binding one, or one in which I've been controlled. The requirements and standards are tough, but everybody is free to reject it. Anything that is worth anything takes a lot of work and a lot of sacrifice.
Physical evidence is not the reason for my belief. A spiritual witness of the truth of what I believe is what keeps me on that path. Something more certain and unquestionable than seeing or touching evidence. It's hard to describe the experience. It's got to be experienced to be understood. Kind of like trying to explain what salt tastes like. It tastes, uh, salty! There is evidence more powerful than physical senses and human, mortal reason. (It's probably hard to believe that this is being written by a highly skeptical academic!
)Some people say that a belief in God is for the weak. In my experience, though, the strongest people I know are believers. It takes a lot of strength to adhere to the strict standards of some churches. And some of us struggle a lot with it, but are better for the struggle. "That which does not kill me only makes me stronger." (Hahaha. I'm quoting an atheist!)
So don't discount the good because of some negatives that are certainly there. I've been the victim of religious persecution from certain so-called Christian churches. They were some of the most un-Christian people that I have ever met. But I've had enough experience in life to know that they are the exceptions. I know that the Islamist extremists that cut people's heads off are nothing like ANY of my many Muslim friends. I know that the Catholic officials that tortured people for heresy are nothing like the many Catholics that I work and associate with and highly respect. (Notre Dame was even going to give me a whole bunch of money to go there!
) I know that the brutal Buddhist soldier monks in medieval Japan are nothing like my friends that are Buddhist priests.A lot of atheists are proud of being open-minded; unfortunately that open-mindedness frequently goes out the window when it comes to viewing the positive aspects of religion. (I'm not making the statement about anyone here, just a general observation.) Even though I disagree with the basic belief system of atheism, I can respect atheists who are honest and insightful enough to recognize the great good that organized religion had done and continues to do in the world. Isn't it better to build up than to tear down anyway?
lord667
=UM=Heartburn
Hyoukinmono said:
Not always. Building up and tearing down both have their uses. Just like it's not intrinsically better to live with or without God.
Zax666
The Prince Of Ice. Almost
Stalin's deeds had a little to do, if any, with communism.
Communism is an uthopical philosophy and as such, yes - you can interpret it as religion. There are just no gods. Everything else is pretty much in there.
The regimmes is Eastern Europe and Asia didn't have much to do with actual communism and the leaders of those regimmes often did things which were actually AGAINST those ideas. I'd reccommend to everyone to actually check out some books by Marx and Engels (or go to www.marxists.org ). Communism is no lesser philosophy than Niezhe's work, it just got bad rap beacuse some people used it to get totalitaric power.
Speaking of which, countries like Sweden are way closer to Marx's thoughts than 'people's republics' have ever been.
Communism is an uthopical philosophy and as such, yes - you can interpret it as religion. There are just no gods. Everything else is pretty much in there.
The regimmes is Eastern Europe and Asia didn't have much to do with actual communism and the leaders of those regimmes often did things which were actually AGAINST those ideas. I'd reccommend to everyone to actually check out some books by Marx and Engels (or go to www.marxists.org ). Communism is no lesser philosophy than Niezhe's work, it just got bad rap beacuse some people used it to get totalitaric power.
Speaking of which, countries like Sweden are way closer to Marx's thoughts than 'people's republics' have ever been.
The Metal Chick
In the Dragon's Den
I guess I'm one of those types thats on the fence...I believe some aspects of Christianity, yet reject others to make my own set of beliefs. I was baptized Catholic, yet much later my dad dragged me to Baptist church with him every Sunday as he became a born again Christian. I dislike church and I'm not much of a Bible fan, but I believe what I want to believe. Thats the way it should be. One of my close friends is a devout Christian, and I respect her for what she believes, and she respects me in the same way. It's the people that look at me and think I'm satanic and try to shove their religious teachings down my throat that bug the hell out of me.
DoktorShred
Member
Im agnostic/atheist sorta thing.
Im pretty sure that consciousness continues after death, but i cant even begin to explain why here. Alot of what i believe in is based on what I study at university (Biochemistry).
Im pretty sure that consciousness continues after death, but i cant even begin to explain why here. Alot of what i believe in is based on what I study at university (Biochemistry).
wicked34
Burn Forever
wow...interesting thread. touchy touchy subject. religion and politics are two topics i try to stay clear of. people are very sensitive to what they believe about those two subjects and it always seems to end up in some kind of argument. but everyone here seems to be keeping a mature and open discussion.
to tell you the truth i am a bit surprised by the number of atheist and agnostic people that have posted here. not that i really give a crap, i was just surprised i guess. i didn't realize how many people don't have God in their lives. im a catholic, and no, not a hard core one. i will always believe in God and Jesus, but i don't necessarily believe in everything my religion tells me to believe either. personally, i just can't imagine not believing in a higher power or afterlife. it gives me peace of mind to think there is someone up there looking out for me and that there is an afterlife waiting for me, so everything that happens here on earth DOES have a purpose. i am a good person for a reason.
"I used to be frightened of dying
I used to think death was the end
But that was before
I`m not scared anymore
I know that my soul will transcend
If I die tomorrow
I`d be allright
Because I believe
That after we`re gone
The spirit carries on"
(Dream Theater)
as someone has said on this thread already, too many amazing things have happened to me throughout my life to just be coincidence. and i know so many people right it off as just that, coincidence.
people talk about there not being proof, but its that what faith is? believeing in something that doesn't necessarily have hard core proof? those are just my thoughts. im not trying to change anyones mind. like i said before, i don't really give a crap what others believe. its just interesting to hear others views on the topic. religion is a strange funny thing sometimes
btw, that was nice to read Hyoukinmono. nice intelligent thoughts and arguments.
to tell you the truth i am a bit surprised by the number of atheist and agnostic people that have posted here. not that i really give a crap, i was just surprised i guess. i didn't realize how many people don't have God in their lives. im a catholic, and no, not a hard core one. i will always believe in God and Jesus, but i don't necessarily believe in everything my religion tells me to believe either. personally, i just can't imagine not believing in a higher power or afterlife. it gives me peace of mind to think there is someone up there looking out for me and that there is an afterlife waiting for me, so everything that happens here on earth DOES have a purpose. i am a good person for a reason.
"I used to be frightened of dying
I used to think death was the end
But that was before
I`m not scared anymore
I know that my soul will transcend
If I die tomorrow
I`d be allright
Because I believe
That after we`re gone
The spirit carries on"
(Dream Theater)
as someone has said on this thread already, too many amazing things have happened to me throughout my life to just be coincidence. and i know so many people right it off as just that, coincidence.
people talk about there not being proof, but its that what faith is? believeing in something that doesn't necessarily have hard core proof? those are just my thoughts. im not trying to change anyones mind. like i said before, i don't really give a crap what others believe. its just interesting to hear others views on the topic. religion is a strange funny thing sometimes
btw, that was nice to read Hyoukinmono. nice intelligent thoughts and arguments.
Pharaoh
Member
Should I post, should I not, I've been back and forth for a couple of days, because it's an intensely personal subject. But we're among friends here, and everybody is cool.wicked34 said:
I have a strong, yet simple faith in a higher power, but am not involved in a church or any organized religion. I've seen so many that have twisted the simplest of messages and it turns me away. I and my family have close friends who are athiest, also friends who are Wiccan, among others who are involved and even immersed in different religious affiliations. It's a personal choice, entirely up to the individual and how he/she wants to live their life. I suppose it's best to just respect others' beliefs until, like mentioned, they attempt to force it upon you.
That pisses me off too.
I will just make one comment regarding the "coincidence" statements.......
After working in hospitals for 30 years, I have seen far too many occurances which could not be dismissed by myself and others as coincidence, but a divine intervention of some kind. Personally, I could never not believe that there is a "God" that intervenes and controls in some capacity. I keep it very simple, because I would drive myself nuts if I delved into a deep undertanding of any facet of it all.
Emanuele
Member
I'm Christian but I'm not into it. I enjoy listening to Black Metal groups and I love Northern pagan mythology. I hate those who kill in the name of God (just like DT say). Relgion doesn't matter, Metal Rulez
Emanuele
Emanuele
SilentRealm
Member
as for people looking at metal people and thinking theyre satanists, i had a very interesting experience yesterday with that.. i never wear metal clothes, i usually just dress like everyone else around here. I was having one of those 'fat' days yesterday and had to pick my son up from daycare, so i just put on my Symphony X shirt \m/ to go get him, coz its nice and baggy. The looks I got were amazing! For the first time ever people looked at me strangely like I was some wierd gothy freak, the same sort of people that never looked at me any differently before that. It was very funny to see.
Back on the religion topic, Hyoukinmono makes a good argument for his side, I respect that.
Back on the religion topic, Hyoukinmono makes a good argument for his side, I respect that.
Taliwakker
.....
SR wrote
Kylie (mrs Tali) gets funny looks at our son's preschool because she doesn't weigh 100kg, and wear trackies and a flanny....
....and you are a weird gothy freak
As for the God thing?
i will try and keep it real short...it takes a real leap of faith either way to believe or not believe in god. I personally don't see "God" as a persona but just as the cosmic glue that binds everything together in our universe....it doesn't need praying to, it won't forgive us our sins, it doesn't provide us a place to live in the afterlife if we are good...and it doesn't want you to give 10-20% of your weekly income to an organisation in its name.
Kylie (mrs Tali) gets funny looks at our son's preschool because she doesn't weigh 100kg, and wear trackies and a flanny....
....and you are a weird gothy freak
As for the God thing?
i will try and keep it real short...it takes a real leap of faith either way to believe or not believe in god. I personally don't see "God" as a persona but just as the cosmic glue that binds everything together in our universe....it doesn't need praying to, it won't forgive us our sins, it doesn't provide us a place to live in the afterlife if we are good...and it doesn't want you to give 10-20% of your weekly income to an organisation in its name.
SilentRealm
Member
Kylie (mrs Tali) gets funny looks at our son's preschool because she doesn't weigh 100kg, and wear trackies and a flanny....
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