Heathen Crusade III... what's the latest?

[Dark One]

The vibe I get from the two festivals is very similar.

Yeah, similar vibes for me too - it's two great crowds for two different styles.

And the only real way to do that is with a real headliner; Amon Amarth, Enslaved, Satyricon, Gojira, etc. By the way, all of those bands have had their videos played several times on the Headbanger's Ball. Neither Epica nor Nightwish have ever had a video played on MTV.

There is plenty of merit to this and I agree with a few expansions. First, I know for a fact they tried to get one or more of the above bands this past year and the stars just weren't aligned properly, so they are in tune more than you might imagine here. Secondly, with the exception of being able to get Agalloch, who would most certainly draw a large crowd and not be ridiculously expensive as a one-off act, consideration should be made to try and have the festival center around a North American tour. Enslaved came very close to getting on the bill that way last year but missed it by a couple of days due to their tour routing schedule.

Perhaps a tour where Heathen Crusade is the first show on the tour could work as well - that way the festival show still has a "special" feel to it, rather than just a tour stop. Maybe that same headliner could also throw an extra couple of songs into the HC set to make it seem all the more "special" as well.

Jason

 

[General Zod]

There is plenty of merit to this and I agree with a few expansions. First, I know for a fact they tried to get one or more of the above bands this past year and the stars just weren't aligned properly, so they are in tune more than you might imagine here.

Agreed. I actually noted that in an earlier response. I followed all the threads leading up to HCII and know how hard these guys worked to get it done. Unfortunately, sometimes things are just out of your control.

Secondly, with the exception of being able to get Agalloch, who would most certainly draw a large crowd and not be ridiculously expensive as a one-off act, consideration should be made to try and have the festival center around a North American tour. Enslaved came very close to getting on the bill that way last year but missed it by a couple of days due to their tour routing schedule.

Perhaps a tour where Heathen Crusade is the first show on the tour could work as well - that way the festival show still has a "special" feel to it, rather than just a tour stop. Maybe that same headliner could also throw an extra couple of songs into the HC set to make it seem all the more "special" as well.

Agreed.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

Accept for the fact, that as is, it won't survive?

I'd rather have the memory of 2 milestone accomplishments and quitting while they were ahead (not in terms of ca$h, but quality), than some diluted shadow of a once great fest.

Agreed. And the only real way to do that is with a real headliner; Amon Amarth, Enslaved, Satyricon, Dimmu Borgir, Gojira, etc.

All those bands would be great, but:

People won't travel for Amon Amarth - they'll tour themselves.

Enslaved couldn't draw 50 people in NYC.

Dimmu would be a complete and total sell out.

Gojira don't fit the mould.

Satyricon....maybe. They certainly have the history of being a primary in the second wave of BM, but again, not sure if people would travel for Satyricon any more than they would Bal Sagoth.

 

[lurch70]

Give me an example of a "world class band" in the pagan/black/viking metal scene that would bring people in their droves?

Obviously it would have to be someone 'bigger' than Moonsorrow, Primordial, Thyrfing, or Bal Sagoth since all four of those bands couldn't muster the ticket sales either.

We've heard rumous of Ancient Rites and Horna. I can't see either of those suddenly turning things around.

All great bands ... but I am more with Zod on the type that would be needed.

Also ... i am still insisting the location is the main problem, not the lineup ...
A more easier to access place in a more metroplitan area would bring in people that would not necesarily go to this type of show to begin with ...

Shit ... you can have a show in the wrong part of town in our area and already some people would whine about the distance.

 

[JayKeeley]

Yeah, similar vibes for me too - it's two great crowds for two different styles.

Having been to both HC's, you're saying the vibes are similar?

Back in January, you said, "there's just something about HC", would you also say, "there's just something about PP"? Or any other fest?

There is that something that HC delivers that people can't quite put their finger on. It's not about getting drunk with people you only see once a year, especially since it's only happened twice, and most of the folks at HC 2 we met for the first time.

There are always great stories to tell from HC. The bands bring this earthen quality that makes everything feel like one big family. As someone else mentioned, it's hanging out with folks from Ireland, Singapore, England, and California all in one hotel room, bands and fans alike.

I could go on, but those in the know, know what I'm sayin'.

 

[Dark One]

I'd rather have the memory of 2 milestone accomplishments and quitting while they were ahead (not in terms of ca$h, but quality), than some diluted shadow of a once great fest.

I definitely agree with you, but I don't think Zod was in any way trying to suggest that the essence of the festival should be changed to survive, just trying to come up with ways to keep it afloat and not run into the same problems that caused the last two shows to be a financial burden. It's difficult line in the sand no doubt though. I actually believe that if they can nail down a headliner or two of an Agalloch caliber, the rest of the show can still be made up of signed or unsigned acts and still has a chance to be a success.

People won't travel for Amon Amarth - they'll tour themselves.

Agreed, but there's no question they'd be a nice draw locally.

Enslaved couldn't draw 50 people in NYC.

Disagree - while they're hardly a household name, their reputation in the black metal world would ensure a large turnout, at least several hundred, in New York. Just my opinion.

Dimmu would be a complete and total sell out.

Agreed. It could also change the type of fan that attends, but hopefully not by a huge margin so the essence of the festival would still remain.

Gojira don't fit the mould.

Agreed.

Satyricon....maybe. They certainly have the history of being a primary in the second wave of BM, but again, not sure if people would travel for Satyricon any more than they would Bal Sagoth.

I think they would be a tremendous headliner for the festival. Reputation, accessibility, power, they've toured here before. Aside from any other issues that would preclude them from being invited (none of my business) - I think they'd be an absolutely outstanding choice for a headliner.

Jason

 

[Dark One]

Having been to both HC's, you're saying the vibes are similar?

Back in January, you said, "there's just something about HC", would you also say, "there's just something about PP"? Or any other fest?

There is that something that HC delivers that people can't quite put their finger on. It's not about getting drunk with people you only see once a year, especially since it's only happened twice, and most of the folks at HC 2 we met for the first time.

There are always great stories to tell from HC. The bands bring this earthen quality that makes everything feel like one big family. As someone else mentioned, it's hanging out with folks from Ireland, Singapore, England, and California all in one hotel room, bands and fans alike.

I could go on, but those in the know, know what I'm sayin'.

Oh don't worry JK, we are on different pages. What I'm implying by the similar vibes comment is completely restricted to the fact that there is a special bond that the fans have at both fests because they are sharing in something that basically can't be matched anywhere else for two very different styles of music. That's all I'm saying and on a very general basis.

Every single thing you mention about HC holds true, and for myself *personally*, nothing else has even come close in the U.S. to the feeling I get on an overall basis at HC. I'm one with the music, the atmosphere and the people on every level there.

Jason

 

[JayKeeley]

All great bands ... but I am more with Zod on the type that would be needed.

Thing is, it doesn't bode well in this particular scene. Nobody wants a fucken Dimmu Borgir playing at HC!! It's not a "Wacken headliner" type circuit. You're dealing more with bands like Mael Mordha and Rudra who (as far as I know) release their own albums and pay for their own airfare.

Also ... i am still insisting the location is the main problem, not the lineup ...
A more easier to access place in a more metroplitan area would bring in people that would not necesarily go to this type of show to begin with ...

Shit ... you can have a show in the wrong part of town in our area and already some people would whine about the distance.

The price of a hotel room in Manhattan averages at $300 per night. Sure you can find one-of deals on hotels dot com for $200, but we're talking about planning an entire event with at least 8 bands, amounting to at least 16 hotel rooms. Then there's the venue costs, food, and so on.

I do know what you're saying, but there's a massive catch 22 here. Big hubs such as Chicago, NYC, etc. are expensive. Even Atlanta isn't cheap. Not that Minnesota isn't a hub, but it's more like Houston: big city, but nobody has an interest in going there.

Also, there has to be some convenience factor here where the promoters live in MN and also taxi these bands back and forth from the hotel, know the city, know the venue owners, etc. That has to be an advantage.

Plus, I would presume, flying from Singapore to MN in January is a lot cheaper than any other time of year.

 

[JayKeeley]

I think they would be a tremendous headliner for the festival. Reputation, accessibility, power, they've toured here before. Aside from any other issues that would preclude them from being invited (none of my business) - I think they'd be an absolutely outstanding choice for a headliner.

Right.

Let me conclude here because I think we're all saying the same thing. Here's a list of what's probable, based on complete and utter speculation on my behalf.

1. The location 'aint changing. It's where the promoters live. Done deal.

2. January makes sense in terms of cheap airfare.

3. Hotel prices, food, and rental cars are affordable in MN. The price of a rental car from LaGuardia is approx. $100 per day.

4. HC needs to sell more tickets. Based on previous turnouts, selling the same number of tickets with a 100 "gold badges" 'aint gonna even the odds, unless those badges are approx. $500 each.

5. So of course, we need the "hollywood" headliner to make 1000 ADDITIONAL people travel from across the country.

Unfortunately, in this scene, #5 isn't realistic. You can give me Borknagar, Satyricon, and Agalloch all on the same bill and I still think HC would have trouble selling out.

P.S. Enslaved may draw a couple of hundred folks in NYC, but would those same 200 people fly to MN for HC3?

 

[Dark One]

Let me conclude here because I think we're all saying the same thing. Here's a list of what's probable, based on complete and utter speculation on my behalf.

1. The location 'aint changing. It's where the promoters live. Done deal.

Actually I think only Mister Mayhem lives there, but of course, where to hold the fest is completely up to them.

Unfortunately, in this scene, #5 isn't realistic. You can give me Borknagar, Satyricon, and Agalloch all on the same bill and I still think HC would have trouble selling out.

Agreed that #5 on your list probably isn't realistic, but I do think a festival with those three bands on the bill would come close to selling out, unless the venue was upgraded or something. I definitely think Station 4 would at least come close to selling out.

P.S. Enslaved may draw a couple of hundred folks in NYC, but would those same 200 people fly to MN for HC3?

Oh yeah, you're probably right on that one, I was just responding to the few hundred folks in NYC point. I do think they'd be a nice addition to HC either way though.

 

[Dark One]

This is really turning into a cool thread. Nice discussion guys.

 

[JayKeeley]

Agreed that #5 on your list probably isn't realistic, but I do think a festival with those three bands on the bill would come close to selling out, unless the venue was upgraded or something. I definitely think Station 4 would at least come close to selling out.

You know what? I don't know. You could be right, I could be wrong. Although I recognize the limits of what we're dealing with, I don't know how to gauge what's required for success.

I'm struggling with this notion that Satyricon, Borknagar, and Agalloch would suddenly switch things around where Moonsorrow, Thyrfing, Bal Sagoth etc previously 'failed'.

Agalloch does stand out more than the rest simply because they've become a cult band. Not because they're bigger, or more popular -- it's because they have this die-hard select following (certainly in North America, which helps) of folks who would travel absurd distances to see them play.

If Agalloch have 2,000 fans, it's very possible that 500 of them would come to HC 3.

Now, Borknagar may have 8,000 fans, but I get this feeling that they're not quite as devoted, and so only 50 may travel.

It's just a hunch.

HC3 almost has to cater more specifically to the "cult" bands who play one-off shows as opposed to the big star names on world tours.

cult band = cult audience = willing to spend money and travel

Look, I'll be honest, even I was the first to say that if Maiden were playing in NYC, I'd probably just go local than fly all the way to Wacken.

 

[JayKeeley]

I have so much God damn respect for you Ali. If there is a HC3 I'm buying you your first six beers.* 9 times out of 10 you're dead on



*From a liquor store.

I'll buy the next 6 and raise you a sloppy joe.

 

[Dark One]

I'll buy the next 6 and raise you a sloppy joe.

LOL - if you noticed he deleted that post. Looks like the deals off.

 

[JayKeeley]

oh well, I'll skip the sloppy joe.

 

[Dark One]

You know what? I don't know. You could be right, I could be wrong. Although I recognize the limits of what we're dealing with, I don't know how to gauge what's required for success.

I'm struggling with this notion that Satyricon, Borknagar, and Agalloch would suddenly switch things around where Moonsorrow, Thyrfing, Bal Sagoth etc previously 'failed'.

Probably not Borknagar - but I do think that Agalloch and Satyricon would draw a bit more than Moonsorrow, Primordial or Thyrfing. Agalloch almost certainly as they are quickly climbing the ranks of the cult bands in popularity. I can't imagine an out of print or extremely limited cd from any of those bands drawing over $200 on Ebay the way Agalloch can draw.

Satyricon, on the other hand, have had a bit more exposure over here than those other bands - they've toured and I believe even had videos on Headbanger's Ball. This in addition to having a more "melodic" direction in their sound as well makes them a bit more accessible in my opinion.

I maintain Agalloch and Satyricon would both be excellent choices.

Agalloch does stand out more than the rest simply because they've become a cult band. Not because they're bigger, or more popular -- it's because they have this die-hard select following (certainly in North America, which helps) of folks who would travel absurd distances to see them play.

If Agalloch have 2,000 fans, it's very possible that 500 of them would come to HC 3.

Ok, you more or less reaffirmed what I was saying on Agalloch here in a different way.

Look, I'll be honest, even I was the first to say that if Maiden were playing in NYC, I'd probably just go local than fly all the way to Wacken.

Heh, yeah - believe me I see the logic in this. It would just be an amazing experience having Wacken as a setting for their World Slavery tour reprise - I'm sure you could agree on that. But absolutely, it's not reason enough to commit to Wacken when we could commit to the NJ show and attend any other festival we wanted to.

Jason

 

[lurch70]

what's the capacity of the venue where HC is held anyway?

@JK ... I think we went through this already in private, but here it goes anyway ... yes, NYC will be more expensive in some ways (venue, transport and somewhat hotel ... although in dead of January you can find stuff in the boroughs that would hapily rent for $60 a night) ... flights however WOULD be cheaper from Europe ...as the hop to MN is now not necessary ... so things WOULD even out.

I think this fest could work IF they nix the foreign bands ... as I think the majority, if not all, of the losses come from the insane airfare and visa costs for all the bands and their cohorts.

and lets also be honest here ... I think most of you go because you know others (from this forum or private friends) are making the trek ... this is a big thing. I am pretty sure if it was you going alone just to see a fest ... it might change your plans. .... Now this is not a negative, its a positive of course ... but the majority of kids into these bands are part of the other camp.

 

[JayKeeley]

I think this fest could work IF they nix the foreign bands ... as I think the majority, if not all, of the losses come from the insane airfare and visa costs for all the bands and their cohorts.

Thing is, for two years running, it's these foreign bands that have enticed us into going...for HC1 all three headliners made their US debut appearance, together with it being a ONE-OFF show!!!!....and guess what? Not enough people showed up! Limiting to US only could kill the turnout further.

But maybe I'm wrong. Someone give me examples of US "pagan" bands that would do well at HC (other than Agalloch).

and lets also be honest here ... I think most of you go because you know others (from this forum or private friends) are making the trek ... this is a big thing. I am pretty sure if it was you going alone just to see a fest ... it might change your plans. .... Now this is not a negative, its a positive of course ... but the majority of kids into these bands are part of the other camp.

Well, HC1 was all about the bands. For a while, only Jason had bought a ticket and was close to going alone.

Granted, HC2 was fun because we knew more folks going this time, but the bands still excited us. Vreid, Slough Feg, Rudra, Mael Mordha, and Dark Forest all on the same bill!!?

HC3 will continue in this vein. Sure it's fun to know some of the folks going, but the bands still need to entice us.

Hell, if someone like Dimmu Borgir headlined and 80% of the audience was a Dimmu fanboy, I probably wouldn't go regardless of who else was going from this crowd.

 

[lurch70]

ok, so the point of this thread is that no matter how the money is raised ... the fest will never have the attendance to break even as there are no big enough bands in the scene to make it super enticing for people on the fence to attend? ...

 

[JayKeeley]

ok, so the point of this thread is that no matter how the money is raised ... the fest will never have the attendance to break even as there are no big enough bands in the scene to make it super enticing for people on the fence to attend? ...

Pretty much.