Heathen Crusade III... what's the latest?

[Dark One]

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I'm not sure about Dimmu because I do think they would change the crowd dynamic as you indicate, but some other ideas we been tossing around (including Agalloch) would keep the crowd dynamic the same and hopefully would allow for greater financial success at the same time.

 

[JayKeeley]

It's all about cult bands playing one-off gigs.

Example: Empyrium reunion US show (one time only). Now granted, there might only be 500 people into Empyrium, but I'm certain 350 of them would fly into this show alone.

Same with In the Woods..... (reunion)

Of course, those 2 aren't great examples because it requires the whole "reunion" deal, but you get my point.

Agalloch, Agalloch, Agalloch. They are mandatory at this point.

In fact, I would probably go so far as to say that if HC3 doesn't feature Agalloch, it's in even more trouble.

I'm glad there was talk about changing the HC dates to accommodate for both Agalloch and Woods of Ypres to play because that will certainly help.


It's tough order but I'm trying to keep the tone and philosophy of the fest.

Remember that Ancient Rites and Horna were being considered as headliners, so everyone needs to think along those lines (unless of course that idea has changed, having to concede to the MTV route).

 

[JayKeeley]

By the way, as discussed, Ancient Rites was once considered headliner material for HC.

Just to put things in perspective, look at how much interest this thread garnered.

 

[lurch70]

/\

I'm not sure about Dimmu because I do think they would change the crowd dynamic as you indicate, but some other ideas we been tossing around (including Agalloch) would keep the crowd dynamic the same and hopefully would allow for greater financial success at the same time.

The words "Agalloch" and "dynamic" cannot be used in the same sentence ...

K thx

their songs might appeal to some, but this is not a "bring the house down" type of band

case in point ...



besides wouldn't it serve to be sober when they come on?

I love hating Agalloch

 

[General Zod]

I'd rather have the memory of 2 milestone accomplishments and quitting while they were ahead (not in terms of ca$h, but quality), than some diluted shadow of a once great fest.

Whose suggesting diluting the festival? I'm merely suggesting the need for a headliner.

People won't travel for Amon Amarth - they'll tour themselves.

Had Amon Amarth headlined last year, I would have been there. You need to add some substance to the line-up.

Gojira don't fit the mould.

I'm not sure how you can say any band wouldn't fit HC when Bal-Saggoth headlined last year. Just out of curiousity, does your CD need to begin with the sounds of falling rain, distant thunder and galloping horses to play HC?

Here's how it seems this debate is boiling down... Aurel and I are looking at this from a business perspective and you seem to be looking at it from a perspective of keeping this festival tr00 (<--- for lack of a better term). Unfortunately, if you want the festival to survive, changes need to be made. And the first change you'll need to make, is to get a headliner that will sell tickets. Even Glenn realized that his festival needed to expand it's boundaries to survive (hence the introduction of a wild card band).

By the way, I've never suggested that Hot Topic should sponsor this event. The point I was making earlier, when I referenced what's been getting exposure on the Headbanger's Ball, was to point out what is commercially viable. There is almost no Prog or Power Metal getting MTV exposure. Yet Glenn has no problem selling his tickets. Extreme music is getting regular exposure on MTV and gaining in popularity. And although Dimmu Borgir may not be the band you want headlining this festival, the exposure they get, and the exposure Amon Amarth gets, and that CoB gets, creates a drafting effect on the whole scene. And my point in all of this, is that extreme music is becoming a commercially viable scene, even moreso than Power Metal.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

For the record, I'm not really debating. I'm just attempting to explain the philosophy -- as I understand it -- of HC.

I'm not sure how you can say any band wouldn't fit HC when Bal-Saggoth headlined last year. Just out of curiousity, does your CD need to begin with the sounds of falling rain, distant thunder and galloping horses to play HC?

It's a pagan metal festival, not an extreme metal festival -- there is a difference. That's why the bands are so carefully handpicked. Skyforger, Obtest, etc are not in the same metal category as Gojira or COB, although on the surface both sets of bands might sound 'extreme'.

Suggesting Dimmu Borgir, Gojira, Children of Bodom, no no no....just trust me when I say that those bands will change the dynamic of the fest and introduce an audience that most regular HC'ers wouldn't want turning up.

Here's how it seems this debate is boiling down... Aurel and I are looking at this from a business perspective and you seem to be looking at it from a perspective of keeping this festival tr00 (<--- for lack of a better term).

I totally recognize that, obviously. And I'm also cognizant of the fact that it's not my show to promote, so I'm hopefully not putting words into Mister Mayhem's mouth.

There is almost no Prog or Power Metal getting MTV exposure. Yet Glenn has no problem selling his tickets. Extreme music is getting regular exposure on MTV and gaining in popularity.

Forget MTV.

The folks who turn up to ProgPower don't need to have their music advertised on MTV in order for them to be persuaded to go. Comparatively speaking, PROGPOWER IS AN EASY SELL. It's easy listening metal. The fans know what they like, they've possibly grown into it having come from a more traditional metal background. E.g. Iron Maiden -> Iced Earth -> Kamelot, etc.

Pagan Metal fans also already know what they like -- the simple difference being, there are LESS pagan metal fans than there are power metal fans. Again, I'm talking specifically "pagan" - viking/folk/celtic type metal. Not just any extreme form of metal.

Now MTV might be attempting to push extreme metal on it's infomercial media broadcast, but I guarantee that the last thing HC needs is newbie fans drawn to the fest because they saw a pop video for Children of Bodom, and now wish to see them performing on the HC stage.

I 1000&#37; agree that if HC wants to become a big sellout show then they have to submit to those types of bands you mentioned, but I maintain it will change the essence of the pagan/heathen metal festival as we know it.

Not that it's ever going to happen, but the big headliner HC needs is GRAVELAND. They have a large following, nobody's ever seen them (him), and they are so cult and underground, they will have a mass audience turn up and the show will not have to concede to the MTV audience.

Indeed, HC could sell out with Graveland and Agalloch alone. Graveland is out of the question, so they're left with Agalloch.

 

[skeptik]

I'm going to have to agree with pretty much all of JK's points, although I've never actually been to the festival itself. The dynamic of the festival and the reason that it has such loyal attendees is pretty obvious, and straying from those elements could very easily alienate many of these people willing to travel across the country (and donate hundreds of dollars) just to see it happen one more time.

 

[General Zod]

For the record, I'm not really debating. I'm just attempting to explain the philosophy -- as I understand it -- of HC.

I get the philosophy. I'm only suggesting it can't be a rigid philosophy if the the festival is to survive.

It's a pagan metal festival, not an extreme metal festival -- there is a difference. That's why the bands are so carefully handpicked. Skyforger, Obtest, etc are not in the same metal category as Gojira or COB, although on the surface both sets of bands might sound 'extreme'.

To be fair, there have always been non-Pagan bands at HC; Novembers Doom, The Chasm, Bal-Saggoth, etc.

Suggesting Dimmu Borgir, Gojira, Children of Bodom, no no no....just trust me when I say that those bands will change the dynamic of the fest and introduce an audience that most regular HC'ers wouldn't want turning up.

I'm not suggesting Dimmu or CoB as possible headliners for the fest. I'm just pointing out that there's a growing audience for extreme music in general. The promoters need to tap into that market, on some level. That said, I'm not willing to concede that Gojira would change the dynamic.

Pagan Metal fans also already know what they like -- the simple difference being, there are LESS pagan metal fans than there are power metal fans. Again, I'm talking specifically "pagan" - viking/folk/celtic type metal. Not just any extreme form of metal.

Again, agreed. There's just no way for the festival survive as a pure Pagan festival. Even if they worked a miracle, and got Graveland and Agalloch, where would they turn for HC IV?

I 1000% agree that if HC wants to become a big sellout show then they have to submit to those types of bands you mentioned, but I maintain it will change the essence of the pagan/heathen metal festival as we know it.

I'm not talking about being a big, sell-out, glossy show, just headliners bigger than Manegarm.

Zod

 

[JayKeeley]

To be fair, there have always been non-Pagan bands at HC; Novembers Doom, The Chasm, Bal-Saggoth, etc.

But you at least recognize that they're not MTV clients, right?

Even if they worked a miracle, and got Graveland and Agalloch, where would they turn for HC IV?

Exactly. You're dealing with a very finite number of bands to choose from. Many of them are either 6ft under (BATHORY), long gone (IN THE WOODS...), likely never going to get into the country (GORGOROTH), or Nazi-affiliated (NOKTURNAL MORTUM).

I'm not talking about being a big, sell-out, glossy show, just headliners bigger than Manegarm.

Sure, but then we're back to square one. Enslaved? Borknagar? Sure, bring them over....I just don't see why more fans would flock to see these guys when they didn't bother for Moonsorrow or Bal Sagoth.

You would need to go bigger -- as you say, someone like Dimmu Borgir or Cradle of Filth, and that point, the festival is toast.

If HC can maintain its existing credo and break even (maybe even take a small hit), I would consider that to be an enormous success. That's as much as you're ever gonna get with the true underground -- breaking even spells HUGE success.

 

[Dark One]

If HC can maintain its existing credo and break even (maybe even take a small hit), I would consider that to be an enormous success. That's as much as you're ever gonna get with the true underground -- breaking even spells HUGE success.

This is why ideas like the pledge thread are needed. We're all just throwing out ideas to try and keep the fest going - some ideas would allow the festival to retain all of it's atmosphere - some might detract a little, some maybe a lot. Regardless, this entire discussion is a good one because the bottom line is even if HC3 were a bit different - it's still better than no HC at all.

Saving the festival is the common goal right now - any dialogue is good dialogue.

Jason

 

[JayKeeley]

This is why ideas like the pledge thread are needed. We're all just throwing out ideas to try and keep the fest going - some ideas would allow the festival to retain all of it's atmosphere - some might detract a little, some maybe a lot. Regardless, this entire discussion is a good one because the bottom line is even if HC3 were a bit different - it's still better than no HC at all.

Saving the festival is the common goal right now - any dialogue is good dialogue.

Jason

I agree 100%.

That said, in principle, I want to make this really clear... ..... my $$ pledge goes towards helping Mister Mayhem set up a festival to attract underground bands over to the states (or even within the states) who normally have little-to-no label support, make no money from their music, and don't make music simply to appeal to the masses. In other words, a continuation of acts such as Mael Mordha, Gwynbleidd, or Rudra.

I don't really want to be paying for Dimmu Borgir's plane tickets - it would be the equivalent of us paying Coca Cola to help with an advertising campaign.

I would hope that our donations would cover the losses that Mister Mayhem would normally be facing, in order to help him break even.

Actually, the more I think about this, perhaps a better idea with our pledges would be to help sponsor specific bands.

Rather than just hand over $2,100, would it make sense for us to share out 3 allotments of $700 to specifically help 3 bands make it to the HC stage? Just a thought.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

why does it seem that the good bands that would have a decent showing are from europe and such. not really a whole lot of choices in the US department.
I for one would like to see Absu ( from texas )

 

[Dark One]

I don't really want to be paying for Dimmu Borgir's plane tickets - it would be the equivalent of us paying Coca Cola to help with an advertising campaign.

I would hope that our donations would cover the losses that Mister Mayhem would normally be facing, in order to help him break even.

Don't forget kupshi

Yeah - I definitely saw the pledge thread as more of a safety net for the current style of festival being held rather than paying for Children of Bodom's catering or something. But again, those types of decisions are still to be made and is why we're not collecting the $$ up front or anything - but pledging our support, seeing what happens and taking it from there.

Actually, the more I think about this, perhaps a better idea with our pledges would be to help sponsor specific bands.

Rather than just hand over $2,100, would it make sense for us to share out 3 allotments of $700 to specifically help 3 bands make it to the HC stage? Just a thought.

I hear ya - but I believe in the promoters and I'm willing to do what I can to help provide them with a safety net and let them do what they do best. Remember - they're well aware of many of the bands we'd like to see and our voices are definitely heard. Bigger names obviously didn't work out last year, but it wasn't due to lack of trying and they still came through with the Rudras and Mael Mordhas of the world for us. I'd prefer to give them our support without strings attached as a sign of good faith. Two of the best experiences of my life have occurred each of the last two years. Yep, they've earned a pass from me.

As always though - any idea is a good one. Keep 'em coming.

 

[Dark One]

why does it seem that the good bands that would have a decent showing are from europe and such. not really a whole lot of choices in the US department. I for one would like to see Absu ( from texas )

A fair question - I'd say it's simply a numbers game. The main styles of metal portrayed at HC are bigger in Europe than they are here. Just a fact - hence you'll find more variety and more cult followings of bands from that area than stateside. More bands are creeping up all the time though. Wolves in the Throne Room are a perfect example of why there's hope for us yet.

 

[JayKeeley]

I hear ya - but I believe in the promoters and I'm willing to do what I can to help provide them with a safety net and let them do what they do best. Remember - they're well aware of many of the bands we'd like to see and our voices are definitely heard. Bigger names obviously didn't work out last year, but it wasn't due to lack of trying and they still came through with the Rudras and Mael Mordhas of the world for us. I'd prefer to give them our support without strings attached as a sign of good faith. Two of the best experiences of my life have occurred each of the last two years. Yep, they've earned a pass from me.

Six hours ago, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. Actually, I still do....it's just that the last couple of pages of this thread suddenly scared me into thinking that the HC folks might be forced to consider getting an MTV friendly band and I panicked.

Also, I want to add this: I have so much trust in Mister Mayhem and Kupshi that if they brought in 8 bands, none of which I've ever even heard of, I'd still go.

In fact, that would be rather exciting. To me, those would be 8 new bands to explore, knowing that they've got top potential.

 

[Reign in Acai]

Rather than just hand over $2,100, would it make sense for us to share out 3 allotments of $700 to specifically help 3 bands make it to the HC stage? Just a thought.

6 points...

-Our goal should be able to raise enough money to bring a 4 piece in from Europe, pay for their hotel, food, drink, and women. Maybe Kupshi or Mistermayhem can give us a ball park figure of how much this would cost? I'm assuming it's around $7,000?

-I was under the assumption last year that you could sponsor a band of your choosing if they met the promoters seal of approval?? If so how fucking awesome would it be if we could bring over an RC sponsored band like Negura Bunget to rock the stage at the Grand Daddy of em all? Hell it may even motivate me to donate more. Who were you guys planning on getting for NYC?!?

-Noltem should also be looked at as a band that can fit the under carriage of the show. If Max can fly in from Amsterdam to CT for the Christmas season, or better yet put his plans on hold for 2 months to save heavy metal , we could scrape up some extra cash to pay for him and En Vind to fly in from New England to perform .


-The promoters are not the ones who need to make concessions, It's the fans who need to get off of their living room couches, turn off their Obtest albums, and go support the band live. $800-$1000 in expenses to have the best weekend of your damn life, or at bare minimum year is a relatively cheap price to pay.

-BTW Woods of Ypres said they would play this gig aslong as it didn't coincide with NAMM. So BAMM there's one band right there who I don't think has ever played in the States that can attract a small band of travelers.

-The Black Pass idea should be implemented and here's a couple suggestions off the top of my head. The autograph sessions limited to those who purchased a pass. Discount hotel rates limited strictly to BP Members. A free sloppy joe meal (Seriously). And lastly a post concert meet and drink with all of the bands in attendance. If the gig ends at 12am, that's a two hour after party that doesn't cost you a dime, and brings the venue revenue through the extra sale of alcohol.

 

[MetalNations]

an FYI.... we have no intention to move it. thanks.

 

[lurch70]

I don't really want to be paying for Dimmu Borgir's plane tickets - it would be the equivalent of us paying Coca Cola to help with an advertising campaign.

you wouldn't have to ... that's the freaking point ... the Dimmu fans WOULD be paying for Rudra's ... come on ... simple business.

and aren't you the one that always wants to expose new and underground bands to bigger crowds.

not sure what's the problem? ... besides keeping the fest tr00 ... which is really pretty ... well ... you know ... teenage stuff.

 

[circus_brimstone]

you wouldn't have to ... that's the freaking point ... the Dimmu fans WOULD be paying for Rudra's ... come on ... simple business.

and aren't you the one that always wants to expose new and underground bands to bigger crowds.

not sure what's the problem? ... besides keeping the fest tr00 ... which is really pretty ... well ... you know ... teenage stuff.

Damn, lurch serves up some pwnage here.

 

[Sanctums]

I realize its a little late to weigh in on this thread. But I agree with Zod, a headliner is the most viable way to keep the headliners alive. I think gojira, or Amon Amarth would draw just enough people from the local area to cover expenses (around three to five hundred). Then fly a band another band from europe to co-headline. I think I've made it clear that Borknagar is my favorite for the fest.

And for the record, dimmu would just fuck it up. You have to figure, Station 4* can only hold about 800 people, dimmu can easily sell 2000.

*Station 4 is the best club in the twin cities for this kind of thing. The owners are easy to work with, drinks are cheap, and its just got a good vibe.