"I have returned from a long abscence!" <----You? Post HERE!

[hyena]

@marduk: and what should i say now, "sorry for having an opinion"? i made it clear that i was not referring to a personal case, but to culture (and I think that Mags got my point, given the tone of his response).

@|ng: of course you should not be ashamed of being a man, and nobody should be ashamed of their gender for any reason. what i was trying to say is that all the stereotyping is infinitely negative, even though it's getting better. there are some areas of my country where a man who cares about his personal hygiene gets called a "fag". now, this is just an example, but i don't think that it is in anyone's interest to buy into the stereotype according to which a manly man has to change his clothes once per month. most stereotypes, although in general subtler than this one, are equally damaging, and in my humble opinion should be eliminated. i have friends who ask their two boys, aged 7 and 5, to learn how to set the table for dinner and how to clean up afterwards. in the majority of households, this would be done with girls but not with boys, resulting in men who believe that they have a right to be served. i don't think this is right either. but you see, different strokes.

 

[Siren]

"hey, you're sexist, you ask for my help because I'm a boy, uh?"

I'd also add: "Good luck trying to find a woman to fix your car".

 

[MagSec4]

I don't know.. that young lady in the "Transformers" movie seems very much qualified..

 

[Somber Soul]

Hello everyone! Finally I can use this thread, too! Amazing. I still see familiar names around here...

My hiatus has been a looooong one. I don't even remember when I last posted on UM. Must've been around 2004, I believe. Good thing I remembered my nick and PW (well, to be honest, I rarely use a different combo).

Well, it's holidays, I am ill, so I cannot do all the work I was planning to do. Instead, I'm sitting around with a mushy head, surfing the net. Now I'm here.

Holiday greetings to everyone!

 

[hyena]

welcome back, somber soul!

 

[Somber Soul]

welcome back, somber soul!

Thanks, Hyena. You're one of the ancient ones.

 

[rahvin]

I sure remember you too, Somber!

 

[marduk1507]

@Marduk: At first it took me some seconds to actually understand your reference was to literature and not to some soap opera from Venezuela, so I thought you were cracking an odd joke.

I took your message as intended, and that's exactly what I struggle to do: find out if there's some capability of understanding things, I wouldn't wish anyone this burden of pondering about things way far from its simple meaning, that would be a healthier way to look at things for me, and there's no sarcasm in my words. In my case, sometimes I doubt she gets me at all, and I don't think it's that hard, but well, she's so warm-hearted and I feel her love so strong, that I will give more than a shot for it. |ng.

Sorry Bender, my reference to Cortazar was a bit odd, I admit. I am glad you took my message as intended, because that was the only thing I wanted to do - to reply to a fellow-forumer who has found himself insecure in a more or less the same situation as me several years ago, because I was worried he might do something stupid only because of the "lack" on the girlfriends part. I totally know what you mean, but I cant really say anything else than that you should ask yourself whats more important to you - 1. to have a kind, warm-hearted and trully loving person by your side, who is maybe an introvert or was brought up in an environment where "all was clear and bright", and where no in-depth thinking and self-analysis was incouraged, but who is by no means unintelligent, and certainly will respond to you one way or the other, or 2. to pursue your own way of communication, to force on her your own struggle to understand how things are and work, and eventually to look for a different soulmate who would be able to respond to you on the level you long for and share her own thoughts and views with you in a more versed manner, but who might have a totally different idea of what it is to love you, if you know what I mean. I dont know, sometimes I think that true love is only possible when no "idea of love" is present. When you simply know you are in love, and you dont need to analyse it over and over. But thats the whole point. How to turn off what seems to go on by itself? Its quite hard, and I wish you all the best in figuring this out.

and what should i say now, "sorry for having an opinion"? i made it clear that i was not referring to a personal case, but to culture (and I think that Mags got my point, given the tone of his response).

I got your point either, it was just that I simply knew, that if you are going to reply to that post of mine, its not going to be about Bender there and his girlfriend, but about something as void as "shared cultural elements". Whats important to me is this particular guy and his problem, to which I tried to reply by providing my own experience from a similar situation. You didnt even mention him. Whats important to you are men and women as such. I absolutely agree that these are socio-political constructs, BOTH struggling in the roles society keeps assigning to them over and over. I have read Second Sex, and I cant but agree with it. Cant you see that I was only trying to explain to Bender there that its his role of a "thinker" that actually makes him insecure in the relationship with a "simple" woman? That simple doesnt mean stupid? And that simple isnt always simple at all? Its so easy to immediately ignore all this and start talking about "shared cultural elements", as if I was defending them. What I am A BIT WORRIED about is how to be a good and decent person, how to keep a relationship or a family alive and normal, and how to lead a good life.

And, on a lighter note, it wasnt me, but guys like Descartes and Spinoza, who after all that thinking and analysing came to a conclusion that intuition is the highest form of knowledge.

 

[Somber Soul]

I sure remember you too, Somber!

And I you, of course. I just found a sweet PM you sent me in 2004, reminiscing about the Golden Age (i.e. the old DT board).

 

[hyena]

@somber soul: would you please stop reminding us that we're old?

@marduk: of course i agree that one should want to be a decent person and care about the development of specific relationships, not only abstract concepts. i also concur on the fact that being loved and loving someone back is THE important part of being with that someone. however, i don't think that the whole question of background expectations (and yes, those are in part cultural elements) is so irrelevant. in many countries, people are still brought up with the idea that they have to marry someone of a certain caste/class/race. obviously, when this is drummed into someone's psyche from an early age, it's going to influence who they fall for: more often than not, it will be exactly someone who fits these expectations. rebellion is not the norm, otherwise it wouldn't be material for so many books and movies. in our society, most people are brought up with the idea that certain traits are to be expected in a woman/man, so they fall for that type of woman/man - the most obvious example being body weight, and on a subtler level all these things we were discussing earlier. don't tell me these are irrelevant.

the reason why I didn't comment on what |ngenius said in particular is that i didn't want to, but since we're doing it already i might as well chime in. what i think is that if someone is in love with you and you're not 100% sure you just leave them, or go on hiatus and discuss problems together, because otherwise that fateful line "let's go ahead and see what happens" mostly means that nothing happens. he'll end up leaving her anyway and she'll end up being way more broken-hearted than she would be now, independent of any personality trait. it's way too comfortable to sit on the fence and feed on another's love, inevitably traded for comfort and sex with a side dish of illusions. now, the fact that he's not sure because she's simple-minded is another matter altogether, i would be saying the same exact things if he wasn't sure because of any other reason.

however, if we want to stop and think about the simple-mindedness, i'd say that there is a conflict between what is obviously conditioned attraction to simple-minded women (another one of these void cultural things) and a personal need to communicate. on the particular case, i might be entirely wrong, because i don't know |ng in real life and i don't know his girl. as a general rule, as seen on a million occasions, guys mostly hop from simple-minded woman to simple-minded woman, because their need to communicate is not so great that they can share the fucking spotlight. it's too bloody good to feel in control, as if being with someone was about control - and i am the one who needs reminding about trying to be decent?

in the spirit of something else that was said in another thread, please note that this should not be a generic anti-man rant. i'm sure that there are equally pernicious behaviors on the part of women, although for obvious reasons i never was the victim. a "manageable" woman has the same luck with the opposite sex that a very rich guy has, probably for the same host of wrong motives.

and so-called intuition has been shown to be automatic reasoning over things we've seen a million times, fyi. like finding light switches in the dark. people do not normally have a blinding flash of awareness about something they've never heard anything about. so people who spend more time thinking about other people and looking at their behavior are going to be better at fathoming other people's desires. it's about being open to others and interested in others, not about some mysterious gender-specific quality.

 

[Siren]

@Somber Soul: welcome back.


@hyena: regarding intuition, it could be automatic reasoning as you say, but women generally are better at picking up emotions and some such crap (also see: empathy). now i'm not very eager to believe that men as a rule are not equally interested in what other people might think or feel. i'm more prone to believe that they lack a certain capacity to do so.
(and yes, this falls into the generic anti-man slant, if you get offended by it, relax and get a sense of humour)

 

[Somber Soul]

@Somber Soul: welcome back.


@hyena: regarding intuition, it could be automatic reasoning as you say, but women generally are better at picking up emotions and some such crap (also see: empathy). now i'm not very eager to believe that men as a rule are not equally interested in what other people might think or feel. i'm more prone to believe that they lack a certain capacity to do so.
(and yes, this falls into the generic anti-man slant, if you get offended by it, relax and get a sense of humour)

Thanks, Siren!

 

[marduk1507]

what i think is that if someone is in love with you and you're not 100% sure you just leave them, or go on hiatus and discuss problems together, because otherwise that fateful line "let's go ahead and see what happens" mostly means that nothing happens.

You will never be 100% sure, nor will you find the "right" man or a woman. What you seem to be missing in my posts is that I am trying to stress the fact that you are never going to get anywhere forcing your ego and your own way of communication on your partner. What I find simple-minded is leaving your partner just because you simply dont want to discuss things any other way than your own. Just giving up on the other person, labelling her/him simple-minded and not worthy of all the verbal treasures you wish to engulf her/him with. THIS is the main reason for the divorce rates shooting up, the main reason being "unsurmountable personal differences" (48 marriages out of 100 in Slovakia), and its also the reason why so many people remain single. People just resign on each other, simply because they find themselves so fucking valuable.

and i am the one who needs reminding about trying to be decent?

Exactly. Although you admit you dont know robots girlfriend nor my wife, you simply assume they are both "manageable", i.e. stupid, and we both are just cowardly jerks who cannot face a real challenge of a woman with an opinion and vagina. Like the only worth of a person comes from her or his ability to form and verbally express opinions on everything. My wife has a higher IQ than me (135, I have 130, just in case youd like to know), but no way will I remain with her, no no, because shes just a simple-minded beauty-doll, who cant talk. Id rather go for a stiff-necked intellectual with whom I can "share the fucking spotlight" in our debates over everything and nothing, until we outsmart and outdebate each other to oblivion (or divorce).

 

[|ngenius]

Well, let's try and reply to all this in a structured and comprehensible way.

I think Marduk, probably due to his experience, has got it all pretty much tied up. In short, I take from his words that any decision will bring different consequences, staying and understanding her as she is may lead me to balance the relationship, and leaving her may take me to uncertain fields where everything is possible. We're back to the point where nothing is certain, I could change deep love for deep analysis, or have them both, or lose them forever. So we just have to walk on, do our best and see what happens, which is not easy, as most of us know.

Well, also speaking from my particular case, she's definitely not stupid, but we've been troubled by the impulsive and not so mature personality of hers, so I needed her to reckon and, as hyena pointed out, discuss the problems together. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense, would it? Now we're not in excellent shape yet, but I feel I would be an idiot if I leave just because things not always turn for the best.

As for hyena, I still don't quite follow your line of thought. You reasoned how damaging stereotypes were, still you collected a few and scattered them over your last post, I consider "women pick better the colors of the walls" (which often happens this way, like it or not) in the same vein of "guys mostly hop from simple-minded woman to simple-minded woman" (which also happens this way, even when I'm definitely not one of them and I could complain for being labeled as one).

Once again, stereotypes apply in real life, sometimes negatively encouraging bad aspects of our nature, sometimes defining them not so hazardously.

As for my particular case, well, I understand that you have not many details about the relationship, but still advicing to split up just because someone feels insecure is going way too far. People might feel insecure because of many things, and some of them may come from their inner self. So, it takes some time to learn about yourself in the new couple dimension, and if someone gets hurt in the process, well, that's worth trying anyway.

I just want to say thank you for sharing this with me, for honest and sincerely replying to my post with the support of your own experience.

Thanks, people!!!

|ng (or Bender?)

P.S: Ohm, btw, I think Marduk didn't quite want to oblige you to reply to my post, but felt a bit strange the change of subject, which apparently departed from his original reply to my post. Of course, you're free to reply or not reply to my words, although I'd dig your insight.

 

[hyena]

You will never be 100% sure, nor will you find the "right" man or a woman.

Heavens forbid I find a woman.

What you seem to be missing in my posts is that I am trying to stress the fact that you are never going to get anywhere forcing your ego and your own way of communication on your partner. What I find simple-minded is leaving your partner just because you simply dont want to discuss things any other way than your own.

I concur with you on the fact that one should not believe themselves to be the center of the world, but I refuse the double standard implicit in discussing deep points with unknown people on an online board and not with one's partner. There are only two possible explanation for this: (1) these discussions are not really important to you, in which case it's ok but you should rethink how you see yourself (2) you are excluding your partner from an important part of your life and i don't see how you can live with that. Either way, it's your problem, not mine, and if you are alright with that, let's all be happy. I think that in a generation or so, as the educational and income level of women increases, this type of behavior will not be specific to males anymore. I will keep on finding it wrong, no matter which gender perpetrates it. I guess we can just agree to disagree.

One thing I definitely want to point out, however, is that waiting until you find someone you really like (and not staying in relationships you're not convinced of) is likely to decrease the probability of divorce, not increase it. The reason why I'm single rather than with someone I'm not really interested in is exactly along the lines of "I don't want a breakup after two years". If people get married with someone they don't like, they're being stupid, but I don't see how encouraging dubious matches helps to defeat this stupidity.

 

[marduk1507]

Heavens forbid I find a woman.

It was a general "you", you...

I concur with you on the fact that one should not believe themselves to be the center of the world, but I refuse the double standard implicit in discussing deep points with unknown people on an online board and not with one's partner. There are only two possible explanation for this: (1) these discussions are not really important to you, in which case it's ok but you should rethink how you see yourself (2) you are excluding your partner from an important part of your life and i don't see how you can live with that.

Sweet Jesus, just what made you think I discuss deep points with unknown people on the board only and not with my partner??? Right after I had replied to the first post of the sexy robot, I also had a long discussion about it with my wife, and it was really great. You seem to keep forgetting that I said we were having trouble discussing things, but we dont have them anymore, simply because I changed the way of approaching things I wanted to talk about, and also of approaching her. She now feels totally comfortable when we discuss anything, and, why not saying it openly, the only "thing" that could make our marriage happier would be a child. Otherwise we are perfectly fine.

I think that in a generation or so, as the educational and income level of women increases, this type of behavior will not be specific to males anymore. I will keep on finding it wrong, no matter which gender perpetrates it. I guess we can just agree to disagree.

I can only agree with this.

One thing I definitely want to point out, however, is that waiting until you find someone you really like (and not staying in relationships you're not convinced of) is likely to decrease the probability of divorce, not increase it. The reason why I'm single rather than with someone I'm not really interested in is exactly along the lines of "I don't want a breakup after two years". If people get married with someone they don't like, they're being stupid, but I don't see how encouraging dubious matches helps to defeat this stupidity.

Well, its hard to discuss this with you, because you see these things black and white, and also seem to deduce and come up with stuff which is simply not there. Dont know whether you do this on purpose, or subconsciously. First, neither I nor |ngenius are with "someone we are not really interested in", dont know where did you get that from. Second, if I or |ngenius didnt like (as you say) our would-be partners, we certainly would not start anything with them. Yes, if anyone does that anyway, they are stupid, but I really dont know how that applies to us. Third, "encouraging dubious matches" - this is just preposterous. Its the same as if Id say that this quote reminds me of Nazi propaganda.

There are many things inherent in your posts, which are not really nice, and which I could now start talking about, and generalise, but that NEVER was the point of this discussion.

 

[hyena]

There are many things inherent in your posts, which are not really nice, and which I could now start talking about, and generalise, but that NEVER was the point of this discussion.

Feel free to point them out, if you want.

Anyway, just one clarification: stop accusing me of saying things I didn't say about you and your wife. I never said you don't like her (are you crazy?). On a personal level, I wish you all the happiness you can have, and I hope your desire for a child is soon fulfilled. The fact that I take exception to some statements - for example, the one about women and intuition that started this whole discussion - is entirely political, and should not be confused with any sort of personal attack. I think we got confused between the two possible readings of this discussion. While I understand that you are not really interested in generalities, and you have every right not to be, please note that for me this is a discussion of principle, not of special cases. Therefore, you should not take anything I say personally.

People who know me in daily life will tell you that I am extremely tolerant of all sorts of emotional inclinations. They will also tell you that I do take exception to political implications, and have opinions on those. Example: most of my friends choose to live together instead of marrying, and I've never bothered anyone about it, nor I intend to do that in the future. If it's good for them, then it's good for me. However, I do not support the current law proposals on the registration of civil unions between heterosexuals; if I had to vote on the issue, I would vote against. I do indeed think that one can be respectful of people's relationships, yet vocally involved in politics, including those concerning gender roles and family organization. Maybe I didn't make my point clearly enough, but I hope it's comprehensible now.

As for |ng, from what he said I have a feeling he's perplexed about his girlfriend, so maybe he doesn't really like her.

The part about discussing philosophy on online boards and not with partners was, again, not directed at you specifically. In all honesty, when I wrote that the archetype I was thinking of was an ex-girlfriend of rahvin's from high school, whom I had been discussing recently with another former classmate upon swapping stories about "What is so-and-so doing now?". I don't think he will be offended in any way by knowing this, especially because in my head she was just an incarnation of a stereotype, I don't have any hard feelings toward her either.

My sentence you quote about reducing probabilities of divorce etc applied to people who are still looking for partner, hence - in the context - me and not you. You were saying that an excessive focus on oneself enhances the probability of divorce, if I understand correctly: people don't adapt to their partners, which is to a certaint extent necessary, therefore split up. I was just giving the mirror image of your argument, ie: if people adapt too much in order to keep a partner, and deny some of their basic traits, at some point they are going to collapse under the pressure and leave each other. I still think that this risk should be avoided. Maybe I should be more of a risk-taker, but that's a personality trait like any other, and I will live with it.

 

[Outstreched Fingers]

i like where this is going...

 

[Matse]

This is just a heated debate and it is not going to become a personal conflict. Such debates happen here on a regular basis but we are too civilized to let it become personal. So don't start getting a stiffy.

 

[Outstreched Fingers]

Right, still, the one in the middle gets usually shot at, i was simply trying to focus their "heat" on me. Kidding I know i ll become civilized too, one day...