Ideological Relevance of Black Metal

Do you mean now or when the term "black metal" was concieved?

If the word black has a clear ideological meaning in regards to metal music it shouldnt matter to much if its black metal of today or black metal of the 80's. Feel free to offer your take on it!

And then we'll see how many black metal bands I can name where this interpretation isnt valid and then see if you would still agree that their music is indeed black metal or something else.
 
Love, compassion, or any emotion or concept dealing with humanity and community are diametrically opposed to the attitude of black metal.

These values are not synonymous with humanity or community, they are synonymous with Christianity. Traditional Germanic mythology held strength and victory over the imported Christian values of pacifism and mercy. Just read the Eddas and see for yourself.

Under the cover of young rebellion through drug abuse, vandalism and violence Black Metal revealed a path that had not been trodden for terrible long time.
 
If the word black has a clear ideological meaning in regards to metal music it shouldnt matter to much if its black metal of today or black metal of the 80's. Feel free to offer your take on it!

And then we'll see how many black metal bands I can name where this interpretation isnt valid and then see if you would still agree that their music is indeed black metal or something else.

It doesn't have a specific meaning in regards to what can necessarily be classified as black metal today. That doesn't, however, deter the relevance of the original ideologies of Venom, Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Sarcofago, etc. in how they influence the ideologies of contemporary black metal, directly or indirectly.

Go ahead and namedrop some bands. I gaurantee I can find a connection.
 
It doesn't have a specific meaning in regards to what can necessarily be classified as black metal today. That doesn't, however, deter the relevance of the original ideologies of Venom, Mercyful Fate, Bathory, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Sarcofago, etc. in how they influence the ideologies of contemporary black metal, directly or indirectly.

Go ahead and namedrop some bands. I gaurantee I can find a connection.

A connection (singular) - of course. But we talk about a coherent ideology arent we? Thats what people have been going on and on about in this thread anyway.

And as you say its ideologies in regards to 1st generation black metal (plural).

If we take some examples of bands that to me differ strongly in ideology (o lack thereof); Burzum, Negura Bunget, Immortal, Dissection, Wolves in the throne room, Sigrblot and Mayhem.

I think wikipedia says it good actually:

Unblack metal (also known as Christian black metal) is a term used in reference to black metal bands whose lyrics and imagery depict Christianity positively. Such bands are controversial, primarily because they contradict the anti-Christian and individualistic sentiment of most black metal. Like National Socialist black metal it is not regarded as a distinct subgenre, as there is no distinct method to play black metal in a Christian way.
 
How is the ideology not coherent? I agree that it's not consistent, otherwise all black metal would have Satanic themes, yet they still undeniably stem from the same overall idea.

All the bands mentioned have ideologies that suggest anti-Christianity. Like I said, it's not always direct let alone directly reminiscent of first wave black metal.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that wikipedia article.
 
How is the ideology not coherent? I agree that it's not consistent, otherwise all black metal would have Satanic themes, yet they still undeniably stem from the same overall idea.

All the bands mentioned have ideologies that suggest anti-Christianity. Like I said, it's not always direct let alone directly reminiscent of first wave black metal.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that wikipedia article.

There is a difference of being anti-christian and unchristian wouldnt you agree?

The wikipedia article was meant to say that the music is black metal even if a christian plays it even if his ideology and maybe the lyrics stand up in rebellion against the popular themes of black metal lyrics.
 
Unchristian could imply anti-christianity which it obviously does in black metal.

The wikipedia article says that the idea is controversial. It doesn't give an opinion one way or the other.
 
Unchristian could imply anti-christianity which it obviously does in black metal.

I dont know for sure but I think that in Negura Bungets case as well as Wolves in the throne room its not a matter of anti-christian as of unchristian (as it is with several folkish/viking black metal bands as well).

Yes, anti-christian should always be unchristian (even if some are stuck in christian worldview without knowing it) but everything unchristian isnt anti-christian. And every black metal band isnt anti-christian in lyrics and ideology.
 
Paganism are pre-Christian ideologies overtaken by Christianity so that implies that Viking/Pagan black metal bands support a great alternative to Christianity and/or an ideology against it. One again, especially in post-1990 black metal, it's not always direct.
 
Paganism are pre-Christian ideologies overtaken by Christianity so that implies that Viking/Pagan black metal bands support a great alternative to Christianity and/or an ideology against it. One again, especially in post-1990 black metal, it's not always direct.

Thanks! You just proved my point. All black metal is not anti-christian since it does not take an active stance in fighting christianity with iconoclasm, blasphemy or whatever it may be. Some just have a different view on life and brings that forth with music and lyrics.

You would hardly call Mahavishnu Orchestra anti-christian even if they are by definition of the ideology in some of their lyrics unchristian.
 
Did you not read my post?

I am saying this one more time: ANTI-CHRISTIANITY IN BLACK IS NOT ALWAYS DIRECT.
 
So we have a "fairly loose, free floating, somewhat unifying, semi-coherent ideas". Sounds like a sound base in trying to give black metal a solid ideological foundation - or not. This is the thing, and ideology is something that is pretty solid and clear - its not generally an emotional state (which black metal seems to be more than anything to me). The one common nominator seems to be a free floating critique on various taboo themes in modern society. Nothing more and nothing less. This takes such wide and varying shapes that I do not consider it an ideology in itself. Not even a unifying idea since quite often black metal lyrics arent coherent with what they critique and how they do it.

The reason that I belabored the point about what 'ideology' is in reference to in the context of black metal ("fairly loose, free floating, somewhat unifying, semi-coherent ideas") is because you were having trouble getting passed the usage of the word 'ideology' as something more concrete and uniform than is meant in this case. It is important that we understand the way in which the term is being used in this discussion. The ideology of a music genre (if it has one cogent enough to be extrapolated) is different in nature to a political ideology in that the former is far more amorphous and prone to evolution and expansion. It is coherent to an extended degree, but not infinitely, as new voices slowly echo the core fundamentals of that ideology while introducing new elements that are harmonious with the base values already firmly established. This in essence even leaves room for dissent within that ideology for issues about which it is not fundamentally valuable to have complete unison (such as, for example, the desire to destroy nature or the desire to revere it). One of these things is not Christianity. No notable band even linked to black metal in any way has ever espoused genuine praise for the Christian god. This is simply not found in any meaningful example of the black metal ideological body and so directly and frequently opposed within that same body that the concept of Christian black metal falls under its own weight.

I said nothing about inauthenticity. And still with the words that describe the meaning of authenticity like "truthfulness of origins, attributions, commitments, sincerity, devotion, and intentions" (yes copied from wiki) you can say that at least the lyrical content of Venom is inauthentic but only if you read into them what they tend to say (worship of sex, drugs, Satan and violence) but not so much if you only regard it as metaphors of rebellion against the societal current. I dont undervalue their imprtance to the genre though.

Venom practiced blasphemy with direct intentions in their lyrical craft, including all of the things that you highlighted (sex, drugs, Satan, and violence), so it can't be regarded as inauthentic even if we weigh in the qualities in the artists themselves. But viewing the lyrics in and of themselves, it is clear that they portray a coherent and cohesive message that epitomized not only everything that the band stood for within the metal landscape at the time, but also everything that black metal was in 1981-1982.

Well as an example Burzum is quite clearly about returning to our rots and live a more natural life (at least thats what it has become - one can debate the earlier releases). Dissection were actually about opposition t the natural world and as an old MLO (Jons org) document said "we see it as the ultimate purpose to destroy this universe" while Immortal clearly takes more of a Kiss route and I doubt they have any larger intention with an ideology behind the music.

This goes back to my earlier point about room for divergent views in the ideology of black metal. Within the fundamentals, there is no direct contradiction in any of the bands you mentioned, or, to be more blunt, in any band that plays black metal. Immortal's lyrical qualities go beyond KISS type showmanship, by the way. Demonaz's lyrics, especially earlier ones, are the vivid escapist imaginings of a genuine fantasist.

Well in some ways but to blaspheme and not present a good example of what we should be like instead. How can I take anyone seriously that album after album dishes out critique of christianity and then are just a slob in real life. Although not a black metal band per-se Deicide is one of the best examples of this. Or when bands praise wisdom and then rather go out taking drugs and getting drunk rather than pursue named wisdom (unnamed vocalist of prominent swedish black metal band Im talking about you!).

Black metal is music, not the musicians who play them. If a black metal musicians disregards the message that he sets forth in his music, this doesn't diminish the music in itself, though it does damage the credibility of the individual. Then again, a lot of black metal bands preach hedonism, and they're quite good at that...

Also, there's no arguing that there's a lot of bad black metal. However, there is a distinction between black metal that is bad and music that is not black metal.

No words have "natural" or "platonic" meanings. They all depend on their contex and enviroment according to me.

Well, according to reality, of course. Words have no meaning other than the meaning (or various meanings) given to them.

However talking about political left and right _does_ imply quite clear ideological differences.

"Black" however, in the contex of black metal, doesnt have a clear ideological meaning because the lyrics from all black metal bands (be it 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation - "true or untrue" :p) differ to much in content and structure to ever give the word black a cohesive meaning. If you ask me how I define political right and political left its a complex but fairly easy question to answer. If I asked you to define the word black and what makes something black in metal music, in regards to ideological content, what would the answer be exacly?

There is a lot of divergence in the political spectrum as well, actually. Left and right, just like black, do not possess a 1:1 ratio between term and definition; their meanings are flexible even within the boundaries that we have defined (namely, politics and the subgenre in heavy metal). There are fascists and anarchists in the 'left' side of the political spectrum, and there are fascists and anarchists within black metal. Black metal represents divergent yet (crucially) non-contradictory concepts at the same time and all mean the same thing, from anti-Christianity, to reverence of nature, to pure hatred for all things, general disgust for society, longing for past times or cultures, hedonism, and mythic idealism. All of these concepts fall coherently within the boundaries of black metal without disrupting the essential properties that constitute the identity of black metal.

Edit: regarding the discussion underway distinguishing anti-Christianity from unchristianity; the discrepancy is irrelevant because both possess a non-contradictory relationship with black metal.
 
Yeah, that's a more articulate explanation of how I understand it. The coherency of all black metal can be traced back to Satanism/anti-christianity so to claim there can be a Christian black metal band obviously can't make sense.
 
First off: I am not trying to make sense out of Christian black metals being or non-being. I am arguing against peoples comments that there is a coherent ideology at the foundation of black metal that all black metal bands somehow share.

Did you not read my post?

I am saying this one more time: ANTI-CHRISTIANITY IN BLACK IS NOT ALWAYS DIRECT.

If its indirect its not anti. Anti-christian means an active stanse against Christianity. And how can Wolves in the throne room be anti-christian if their lyrics does not deal with Christianity?

Yeah, that's a more articulate explanation of how I understand it. The coherency of all black metal can be traced back to Satanism/anti-christianity so to claim there can be a Christian black metal band obviously can't make sense.

My Wolves in a throne room example serves me well time after time. Where are they satanic or anti-christian? Clear examples please!

Dodens_grav:

The reason that I belabored the point about what 'ideology' is in reference to in the context of black metal ("fairly loose, free floating, somewhat unifying, semi-coherent ideas") is because you were having trouble getting passed the usage of the word 'ideology' as something more concrete and uniform than is meant in this case. It is important that we understand the way in which the term is being used in this discussion. The ideology of a music genre (if it has one cogent enough to be extrapolated) is different in nature to a political ideology in that the former is far more amorphous and prone to evolution and expansion. It is coherent to an extended degree, but not infinitely, as new voices slowly echo the core fundamentals of that ideology while introducing new elements that are harmonious with the base values already firmly established.

If you want to redefine words thats up to you but ideology means (citing the Merriam Webster dictionary):

1. visionary theorizing
2. a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program

What is an ideology if it practitioners does not share the core tenets? And what are the core tenets of black metal ideology? It cant be about nature and its being or non-being, nihilism, suicidal expressions, anti-christianity, paganism, satanism or the seeking of strengthening your body and mind. We have bands that are either for or against everything listed. So what is the common nominator? Id say its how the music sounds.

And then I agree. Christian themes, hindu themes (true hindu not westernized or satanized ones), muslim themes etc are pretty much non-existant. And there is a reason for that in the attitude of the practitioners. However would it be possible t have a hindu black metal band? Probably...

Venom practiced blasphemy with direct intentions in their lyrical craft, including all of the things that you highlighted (sex, drugs, Satan, and violence), so it can't be regarded as inauthentic even if we weigh in the qualities in the artists themselves. But viewing the lyrics in and of themselves, it is clear that they portray a coherent and cohesive message that epitomized not only everything that the band stood for within the metal landscape at the time, but also everything that black metal was in 1981-1982.

Im sorry but calling Venoms lyrics coherent and cohesive doesnt ring true to me. They only wanted to shock and thats the only clear message they stood for as a band. The band didnt stand for the messages put forth in the lyrics. They stood for partying metalheads that wanted bad press so that kids would think they were the shit.

This goes back to my earlier point about room for divergent views in the ideology of black metal. Within the fundamentals, there is no direct contradiction in any of the bands you mentioned, or, to be more blunt, in any band that plays black metal. Immortal's lyrical qualities go beyond KISS type showmanship, by the way. Demonaz's lyrics, especially earlier ones, are the vivid escapist imaginings of a genuine fantasist.

So you would say that Burzum (naturalist) agrees with Dissection (anti-naturalist). Or Darkthrone (individualism) and Nokturnal Mortum (collectivists). Or Wolves in the throne room (no mention of christianity as far as I know) and Enthrones (very blasphemic in style). Or Mayhem (Maniacs Nietzschen lyrics proclaiming strengthening of ones self - even if he does not live up to the ideals) and Shining (who are pro-suicide) etc.

I think Hellhammer said it best when he said that black metal is "just music" or the guy, forgot who, who said it doesnt have to be necessarily satanic as long as its dark. And the darkness does come from the actual music and then can be present in the lyrics as well (even if retelling of the Eddas for example might not be dark throughout).

There is a lot of divergence in the political spectrum as well, actually. Left and right, just like black, do not possess a 1:1 ratio between term and definition;

Agreed but there is a whole lot easier to define a politican of the left or the right (free trade, collectivism, individualism, conservativism, strong state, weak state etc) compared to what a core ideology would be in black metal (since there is none).
 
These values are not synonymous with humanity or community, they are synonymous with Christianity. Traditional Germanic mythology held strength and victory over the imported Christian values of pacifism and mercy. Just read the Eddas and see for yourself.

Well, Christianity is a very humanitarian and community-driven religion, so they are values typically associated with those concepts.

Im sorry but calling Venoms lyrics coherent and cohesive doesnt ring true to me. They only wanted to shock and thats the only clear message they stood for as a band. The band didnt stand for the messages put forth in the lyrics. They stood for partying metalheads that wanted bad press so that kids would think they were the shit.

Wanting to shock people who adhere to the commonly held and practiced beliefs of a society that is dominated by Christianity seems pretty purposeful, so I don't think using Venom is a good argument. Writing lyrics for shock value still represents a form of dissent, and a desire to jar people out of their comfort zone.

So you would say that Burzum (naturalist) agrees with Dissection (anti-naturalist). Or Darkthrone (individualism) and Nokturnal Mortum (collectivists). Or Wolves in the throne room (no mention of christianity as far as I know) and Enthrones (very blasphemic in style). Or Mayhem (Maniacs Nietzschen lyrics proclaiming strengthening of ones self - even if he does not live up to the ideals) and Shining (who are pro-suicide) etc.

I'm sorry, but why are you equating these bands to these ideals? What are you drawing from? Why is Dissection "anti-naturalist," and why is Nokturnal Mortum collectivist? Just because a band is NS does NOT make them strictly fascist, much less Nazi. National Socialism is a widely used and often misrepresented term, and I highly doubt you'll find much about fascism and racism in Nokturnal Mortum's lyrics. For them, National Socialism is a term that defines pride in one's own country and national heritage. It's a mistake to equate this with racism and collectivism.

Finally, I have another question that I'd like to introduce. It's interesting to note how many influential black metal bands started off as death metal. Did their ideologies change when their style changed, or did they feel that the music they were playing didn't properly reflect the ideology they wanted to portray?
 
Einherjar86

Wanting to shock people who adhere to the commonly held and practiced beliefs of a society that is dominated by Christianity seems pretty purposeful, so I don't think using Venom is a good argument. Writing lyrics for shock value still represents a form of dissent, and a desire to jar people out of their comfort zone.

Agreed, it is a form of dissent and to jar people out of their comfort zone. Still, we're not discussing that. We are discussing black metal ideology (as if there was one true version or common root to it). In this case rebellion against main currents in todays society might be as close as we'll ever get to a core black metal ideology. But then again thats pretty much the core ideology of any metal.

I'm sorry, but why are you equating these bands to these ideals? What are you drawing from? Why is Dissection "anti-naturalist," and why is Nokturnal Mortum collectivist? Just because a band is NS does NOT make them strictly fascist, much less Nazi. National Socialism is a widely used and often misrepresented term, and I highly doubt you'll find much about fascism and racism in Nokturnal Mortum's lyrics. For them, National Socialism is a term that defines pride in one's own country and national heritage. It's a mistake to equate this with racism and collectivism.

1. Dissection - ever read the lyrics to the last album? Ever read the stuff MLO has released (now TotBL - Jon couldnt shut up about his orgs ideology). I even pulled out a quote (from memory so the phrasing may be different) to support my argument earlier in the thread. I would say I used the wrong word though. They cal it "anti-cosmic" not anti-naturalist. My fault.

2. Nazism is a short for National Socialism (NS). It is the same thing. NS in turn is in ideology pretty much created by the NSDAP in Germany. Having read Adolf Hitlers "Mein Kampf" I have a pretty good grasp on the ideology. He goes through the core tennets of the NSDAP in this book. And NS is collectivist in general and for sure opposed to the individualism and decadence of certain other black metal related ideologies (such as Fenriz's).

You are right however, Fascism really isnt National Socialism. But fascism is one of the most mis-used words in history. I would say it is immensly, and maybe exclusively, connected to Mussolinis Italy (in regards to countries where fascists has had real political power). Id say NS is related but the basis of the two ideologies are different.

3. I was looking into Nokturnal Mortum and found some racist views expressed although never anything strictly NS. So if I may, I'll change my example to include the band Absurd who clearly is NS.
 
If its indirect its not anti. Anti-christian means an active stanse against Christianity. And how can Wolves in the throne room be anti-christian if their lyrics does not deal with Christianity?

It is anti because Satanism is the ideology that spawned the genre of music, so there is a definite connection to be made if the band can fall somewhere within the framework. Whether or not there is a direct "anti" claim being made is irrelevant.

My Wolves in a throne room example serves me well time after time. Where are they satanic or anti-christian? Clear examples please!

Once again, the connection is what matters.

If you want to redefine words thats up to you but ideology means (citing the Merriam Webster dictionary):

1. visionary theorizing
2. a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program

What is an ideology if it practitioners does not share the core tenets? And what are the core tenets of black metal ideology? It cant be about nature and its being or non-being, nihilism, suicidal expressions, anti-christianity, paganism, satanism or the seeking of strengthening your body and mind. We have bands that are either for or against everything listed. So what is the common nominator? Id say its how the music sounds.

It's a matter of how those themes are expressed. I'm not sure where you're finding bands that are against those themes.

And then I agree. Christian themes, hindu themes (true hindu not westernized or satanized ones), muslim themes etc are pretty much non-existant. And there is a reason for that in the attitude of the practitioners. However would it be possible t have a hindu black metal band? Probably...

I would say that Muslim and Hindu themes also don't have a place in black metal but I would say Christianity would be more contradictory given the fact that the originators had themes specifically against it.

Im sorry but calling Venoms lyrics coherent and cohesive doesnt ring true to me. They only wanted to shock and thats the only clear message they stood for as a band. The band didnt stand for the messages put forth in the lyrics. They stood for partying metalheads that wanted bad press so that kids would think they were the shit.

Irrelevant. Venom were THE first metal band to use Satanism as a recurring theme, thus creating the genre.

So you would say that Burzum (naturalist) agrees with Dissection (anti-naturalist). Or Darkthrone (individualism) and Nokturnal Mortum (collectivists). Or Wolves in the throne room (no mention of christianity as far as I know) and Enthrones (very blasphemic in style). Or Mayhem (Maniacs Nietzschen lyrics proclaiming strengthening of ones self - even if he does not live up to the ideals) and Shining (who are pro-suicide) etc.

Do any of those suggest promotion of Christianity? No. Do all of those have some sort of negative undertone that is against Christianity and/or some underlying theme of the preference of being removed from it? Yes. The only reason I suggest that all black metal is anti-Christian, direct or indirect, is because of where it initially came from and how the themes developed to reach its current state as a genre.

I think Hellhammer said it best when he said that black metal is "just music" or the guy, forgot who, who said it doesnt have to be necessarily satanic as long as its dark. And the darkness does come from the actual music and then can be present in the lyrics as well (even if retelling of the Eddas for example might not be dark throughout).

You're still working under the logic that black metal must have anti-Christian/Satanic themes in order to have a coherent ideology. There is a difference between coherency and consistency. Black metal doesn't have consistent themes but they all stem from the same source of ideology so it is, in fact, coherent.

Agreed but there is a whole lot easier to define a politican of the left or the right (free trade, collectivism, individualism, conservativism, strong state, weak state etc) compared to what a core ideology would be in black metal (since there is none).

The core ideology is Satanism. Everything else is a progression of that idea. Just because there are different ideologies doesn't mean that there isn't a core ideology that gave the genre its overall purpose. All of the examples of themes in black metal you gave CAN be traced back to Satanism.