Ideological Relevance of Black Metal

I don't personally listen to much depressive shit but the fact that it is so heavily focused on negativity is why it could be considered antithetical to Christianity. Like Paganism, I don't think it necessarily needs to be a direct opposition to Christianity in order for it to be black metal.
 
That's not even relevant. Black metal is an opposition to the widespread consensus of Christian morals (aka shit that is "light and good"). I don't really think black metal musicians sat there and analyzed Christianity enough to pinpoint it's "non-light and good" aspects.
 
as a musician, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of ideology determining a music's genre more than the actual sound of the instruments and musical composition.

so if a band that was death metal in sound but had a black metal ideology, they would be black metal?

Apparently, because everyone considers Dissection to be black metal.
 
What sound are you talking about? Black metal hadn't developed into any sort of specific sound until the second wave. There is a large gap in musical characteristics between Mercyful Fate and Darkthrone yet both are black metal which, again, stresses my point of ideology being more important in defining black metal than musical aesthetics. Black metal doesn't and never did have a specific sound. There are common musical characteristics that bands shared starting with the second wave but the genre has been very musically diverse since its inception. Black metal is an all encompassing ideology of the recurring antithetical themes of Christianity within metal. Saying that there can be Christian black metal solely based on the fact that the band is using musical methods common to black metal is an insult to the genre.

I am putting black metal on a pedestal because it is worthy of that position and probably the greatest overall step in the evolution of metal. Plain and simple.

I agree with Obscure and can understand your passion regarding BM...If it were'nt for BM i don't think Metal in general would be nearly as interesting.Also there have been alot of less deserving bands that have ridden the BM bandwagon imo.There are very few who really embody the true meaning of BM these days .I personally don't rate these foresty bands that highly in the grand scheme of BM,bands like Drudkh and Marblebog sure it's pleasing to the ear but they are very different thematically from bands like Venom and Darkthrone.True BM is not concerned with nature,only in aligning itself with Satan.And i see his point in making this thread,it(BM) has been watered down enough over the years.
 
see I don't think we can necessarily pinpoint ideology as the uniting component of black metal bands because we, the listeners, and they, the bands it seems, can't even agree on what constitutes black metal's ideology. I'd also call into question band's genuineness and honesty. How many bands just do the gimmicky "HAIL SATAN!" black metal just to seem cool and fit in with all the other black metal kids? To me, the pagan, nature-y black metal bands which sloughfegkillers may not necessarily enjoy, actually signify the original ethos Obscure (and others) seems to be getting at repeatedly: notions of individuality, breaking from the norm, seeking development of the self and eschewing conforming belief systems (or ideologies). I take them more seriously than those who go on stage with impaled pig heads and litter the stage with inverted crosses and blood. Yes there is an element of theatricality but at some point it's overkill and actually does less to enforce a certain kind of belief or idea structure
 
You raise some great points Unknown,which makes me think of my favourite sub-genre,War Metal.I think the reason i was drawn towards War(bestial) BM was because they actually went past the whole Satan thing and just said 'fuck it' this whole world is fucked,lets blow the fucker up.That and the actual sound of 'War Metal'.Bands like Conqueror,Blasphemy,Bestial Warlust,Sad X and the mighty Goatpenis although they did(do) use satanic imagery it was more of an 'Empowering,world conquering' form of individualism rather than overt deity worship.Like you and others have mentioned,the world of BM is an opaque one, individual interpretation is first and foremost.But in saying that it was founded by Satanists,that is its basis.
 
I don't think there needs to be a specific ideology other than something that, at the very least, suggests defiance of Christianity in some way or another. I would say that the sincerity of the bands is irrelevant since, when all is said and done, how the ideology is channeled through the music is what's important. There are obviously bands that suffer due to insincerity (Dark Funeral comes to mind) but also insincere bands that fucking rule like Venom.
 
Yes Venom and Slayer are two great examples...That's it mate,pretty much hit the nail on the head.I guess even the pagan bands are adversaries so therefore they are BM.It's actually pretty damn cool that BM has evolved this far and that there are so many variations,what a fucking great genre:kickass:
 
I like where this thread is going! If this site had "karma" or "like" buttons I would "like" sloughfeg's last post hundreds of times. I can think of at least ten different subsubgenres of black metal off the top of my head, and most of them are excellent for entirely different reasons. Black metal satisfies the part of my brain that craves darkness and forests and carefully constructed ennui, and I've not found any other music on earth that can.
 
This thread has sparked in me a desire to bring to life the seed of an idea that has for far too long now sat idly rather than been properly germinated. I'm going to lay out the ideological argument in black metal in article form that more thoroughly explores the issue than is practical in a forum post and attempts to tackle as many obstacles in the argument as possible. One thing in particular that hasn't been addressed enough in this thread is the evolutionary expansion of ideology and the fact that that expansion has obvious boundaries, by far the most obvious of which being Christianity. Christianity (the demagoguery, dogmatism, and zealotry by which Christian music seeks to go about converting and preaching more specifically) being so directly antithetical to anything and everything that has ever accounted for motivation in the genre, there truly is no means by which black metal can coexist with an ideology of Christian music. Most Christian music resembling the aesthetic attributes of any genre can be argued not to be of that genre, but rather a replication. This is because so much of the music is created as a secondary motivation, the first being to preach and to attempt to convert. It's like writing a speech and then setting it to music as an afterthought. In other words, this is not an issue specific to black metal or heavy metal at all, and it has been addressed in numerous scholarly articles by professional individuals of varying religious beliefs and musical preferences, many of whom reaching the conclusion that a large proportion of Christian music falls short of properly replicating any more than a facsimile of the genre that they mean to emulate.

Also, the "music is sound and nothing more" audience would do well to become better informed as to what exactly music entails. Lyric is an essential ingredient to all music that actually contains lyrics. Instrumental music actually had to be argued for to be regarded as art proper in aesthetic philosophy circles because it essentially possesses no meaning, so to suggest that lyrics are inconsequential in determining or evaluating music on any level is absurd. Whether or not you personally pay attention to them is irrelevant to their being as fundamental to any song that possesses lyrics as the notes that they convey, whether or not you can understand what the vocalist is saying. This is not even to mention a capella music that is purely lyrical.

Edit: Also, regarding unknown's Darkthrone mimicry example, the implication here rests on the listener's knowledge of the object. The problem with this is that the listener's knowledge of the object in no way alters the actual qualities of the object itself. Accordingly, not being aware of a band's Christian lyrics and thereby mistakenly assuming that they are black metal purely based on sound does not affect their status as not black metal. Discovering that a band that you thought was black metal has Christian lyrics and is therefore not black metal does not change the genre of the band itself but merely indicates that you were wrong because you were ignorant of a key feature of the band's music.
 
Well that's too bad, because plenty of people only toss in lyrics as an afterthought after writing the entire song plus vocal melodies first. Also, arguing whether instrumental music is proper art is bullshit. There are plenty of fantastic metal songs with no lyrics, not to mention classical and jazz.
 
Lyrics thrown in as an afterthought doesn't deter their relevance.

I don't really agree with instrumental music not being considered art. Does the artistic intent behind an instrumental need to be publicized for it to be considered art? What if the artist writes the instrumental with meaning but doesn't ever address it?
 
So most of us can agree that black metal can never have pro-Christian lyrics. However, I believe the genre has shown that a great number of other lyrical themes work within the genre of black metal. Without getting into a pointless debate about "tr00ness", are anti-, non-Christian themes the only the only criteria required for creating black metal?
 
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It's about the artists' original intent but the lyrics don't need to be sincere to withhold some form of artistic value.
 
What if they are nonsensical/gibberish and not written with any sincerity or particular agenda? Is it more about the artists' original intentions or about how the listeners interpret them?

The intentional and affective fallacies would say neither are relevant (I forget the formalist who came up with this notion and can't be arsed to go upstairs and get my Norton anthology of lit crit). But yeah I agree with you. Or like somebody said, what if the message is not meant for the audience and so the artist either obscures the message in cryptic lyrics or makes the song instrumental

and what Sapamurat brings up really bothers me. It's like there's this checklist of criteria a band has to meet in order to be considered black metal. Doesn't that enforce a structure and order on a form of music that is supposed to resist structure and order?
 
It has to have some structure and order or any music could be considered black metal. Since when does black metal necessarily encourage resistance against structure and order anyway?