If Mort Divine ruled the world
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H.P. Lovecraft
Active Member
The other thing with PCP? If they had reason to believe he was on PCP? A taser or beanbag wouldn't have done fuck all to him, and a well-placed gunshot is just about the only thing that would've halted him.
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
Ultimately I do agree with rms, that she made a mistake and basically broke under stress. I just happen to disagree with most of the criticisms I'm seeing.
H.P. Lovecraft
Active Member
H.P. Lovecraft
Active Member
There's a reason why being a cop is one of the toughest jobs out there. Decisions like this, particularly when dealing with an erratic and non-compliant suspect, one who could very well be on PCP.
rms
Active Member
She was the only one charged and autopsy says 1 bullet to the chest killed him? I think he was tased before he was shot, though?
She let him walk to his car. If it's true, yelling to stop isn't enough in that situation, if she values her own life. The possibility of danger of a possible erratic and drugged up suspect going back to his vehicle increases by an exponential amount.
Warning shots, shots to the leg, taser would have made sense logically if he was in fact not responding to commands. But following him and doing nothing, then shooting him as the amount of uncertainty reached its peak, is a mistake on her part and she should be held liable. .
People fear a gun because it would be used against them. Dude did not fear her, and I think its obvious she had no intent to use it until she reached a point of fear + uncertainty. The pulling of the gun is meaningless
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
Oh yeah I meant, she fired her pistol and a second or less later he tased him.
I guess you and I define doing nothing and giving permission very differently. Also everybody mentions the leg shot thing in these situations, but I remember reading that actually pulling off such a specific shot is quite hard, especially in those kinds of situations.
Because he was very likely on drugs, which according to her was apparent post-pulling of her gun.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Same scenario, different narrative:
Black man, high on PCP, becomes stressed and begins acting erratically out of fear that he might be shot by a white police officer. As it turns out, his fear was well-founded.
But none of that really matters, because he was a black man on PCP. And she was a police officer.
Alas, I'm only a literary scholar - I'm interested in narratives, not in reality. But as Foucault should have said, perspective is power.
Black man, high on PCP, becomes stressed and begins acting erratically out of fear that he might be shot by a white police officer. As it turns out, his fear was well-founded.
But none of that really matters, because he was a black man on PCP. And she was a police officer.
Alas, I'm only a literary scholar - I'm interested in narratives, not in reality. But as Foucault should have said, perspective is power.
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
Here's a narrative;
White person gets shot by police officer. It isn't news. Nobody cares. Nobody protests.
It's ironic that rms said to stop bringing up race, when the dead man's race is the only reason we're even talking about this.
White person gets shot by police officer. It isn't news. Nobody cares. Nobody protests.
It's ironic that rms said to stop bringing up race, when the dead man's race is the only reason we're even talking about this.
rms
Active Member
dude, he was like 5 steps ahead of her. If you can't hit a leg in that range you shouldn't be a police officer nor on the street. Quit making excuses for her garbage mentality and actions.
It's really a shame you have gone down this path to defending her. Just grasping at anything without anything clear in mind. I expect better, tbh.
There are two issues here, and one i'm engaged on in this forum and the other on another message board.
1. Was the cop justified in using force? I argue no.
2. Why is this guy getting attention? I just wasted like 15 replies on another board talking about toxic and misinforming BLM has become in regards to this issue. I went nowhere with this other dummy and yet again searching for someone intelligent enough to debate these things on.
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
What mentality is garbage exactly?
Fair enough. I think you're being pretty unreasonable though.
She was justified in using force, that's not the arguable part. It's whether she should have killed him that's in question.
BLM hasn't become toxic and misinforming, they directly grew out of toxic politics and misinformation. But you must admit that race is the reason this is a story being elevated above other stories, so you can't exactly leave it out.
You may think I'm just making cheap excuses for her crappy actions (it recently came out that she was known for being skittish btw) but I think I'm just trying to separate the accurate criticisms from the inaccurate criticisms. I think she ultimately made the wrong decision, but I also think your criticisms of the various steps leading up to the man's death are rather weak.
EternalMetal
Active Member
- Mar 31, 2004
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Honestly im starting to feel bad for the cops at this point. The BLM movement is promoting an attitude of resentment and non-compliance towards officers, which is ironically forcing cops to be on high alert against black people. It is also promoting the same sort of paranoia that Einherjar just mentioned from the perspective of black people, which means that by default any encounter between the two will be met with both sides being tense and prepared for a potentially violent altercation.
In most of the recent BLM-promoted videos of cop altercations with black people, I see a general attitude of non-compliance on the civilian side of things. For example, a liberal friend of mine just posted a video on facebook about a black PI that encounters an officer wondering why this guy was just sitting in his SUV parked on the side of the street. When asked by the officer if the man was PI or something, the man responds with a question, "Does it appear as if im doing anything illegal?" At this point you can tell that the officer is getting nervous, and he eventually pulls his gun on the man and calls for backup. I assert that if this man was trying to prove his innocence (instead of promoting a BLM sort of agenda), he would have explained to the officer why his atypical looking behavior was an extension of his job, and how he could show him his credentials to prove that he was in compliance with the law. To me it looked like the man used a passive aggressive technique to provoke the officer into escalating the situation, which conveniently there was recording equipment set up to document the encounter because of his PI profession. This cop got played, and is now being victimized to promote the 'cops are violent towards black people' agenda. Link.
My point is that cops seem to be forced into a corner, and when they draw their guns in defense (or god forbid use them in a threatening scenario), they become accused of being trigger happy towards innocent black people. Whether the cop in the scenario that you all are talking about is justified for shooting the man or not, her reaction is understandable given the building animosity between the black community and law enforcement. Both sides are scared, and the resulting paranoia seems to escalate the situation on both sides.
I dont expect police to start putting their guns down in threatening situations just because of a social justice movement. Actually I expect more lapses in judgement due to fear just like the female officer. Does this affirm the BLM movement? I say that it is just the police trying to protect their own lives while trying to do their job. I get that people dont want to prostrate themselves before someone just because they are wearing a uniform, but considering the state of affairs it is best not to provoke police to use violent measures to protect their own lives. To my eyes, the solution is peaceful protest, but from what ive seen from the BLM agenda, this is not happening.
In most of the recent BLM-promoted videos of cop altercations with black people, I see a general attitude of non-compliance on the civilian side of things. For example, a liberal friend of mine just posted a video on facebook about a black PI that encounters an officer wondering why this guy was just sitting in his SUV parked on the side of the street. When asked by the officer if the man was PI or something, the man responds with a question, "Does it appear as if im doing anything illegal?" At this point you can tell that the officer is getting nervous, and he eventually pulls his gun on the man and calls for backup. I assert that if this man was trying to prove his innocence (instead of promoting a BLM sort of agenda), he would have explained to the officer why his atypical looking behavior was an extension of his job, and how he could show him his credentials to prove that he was in compliance with the law. To me it looked like the man used a passive aggressive technique to provoke the officer into escalating the situation, which conveniently there was recording equipment set up to document the encounter because of his PI profession. This cop got played, and is now being victimized to promote the 'cops are violent towards black people' agenda. Link.
My point is that cops seem to be forced into a corner, and when they draw their guns in defense (or god forbid use them in a threatening scenario), they become accused of being trigger happy towards innocent black people. Whether the cop in the scenario that you all are talking about is justified for shooting the man or not, her reaction is understandable given the building animosity between the black community and law enforcement. Both sides are scared, and the resulting paranoia seems to escalate the situation on both sides.
I dont expect police to start putting their guns down in threatening situations just because of a social justice movement. Actually I expect more lapses in judgement due to fear just like the female officer. Does this affirm the BLM movement? I say that it is just the police trying to protect their own lives while trying to do their job. I get that people dont want to prostrate themselves before someone just because they are wearing a uniform, but considering the state of affairs it is best not to provoke police to use violent measures to protect their own lives. To my eyes, the solution is peaceful protest, but from what ive seen from the BLM agenda, this is not happening.
rms
Active Member
damnit dude I just did like 5 posts saying she put herself into a kill or be killed situation. She was illogical, passive, weak and who knows what else. She finally musters courage once others show up, it makes no sense.
Yeah, that's a mistake on my part. Is she criminally liable for what she did? I think she is.
Not denying that's why this victim is important, its just not what we're discussing at all.
(to the bold) Seriously? You just said it's hard for us to expect cops to be able to shoot a suspect in a non-lethal area (leg in this instance) at almost extreme close range...and my argument is weak?
She didn't tase. She didn't fire a warning shot. She didn't shoot with intent to injure, not kill. She did nothing but let him control the scene/situation. I don't see how any of this is incorrect or whatever other word I cannot think of.
Baroque
Active Member
Did the police ever report that he was on PCP? If he was you'd think they would release that information in their defense. That makes me think he was not.
rms
Active Member
Last I saw was that there was PCP in the car, which then made everyone black person on facebook think the cops were framing him. Autopsy still isn't out so we don't know toxicology yet. I'm sure if it's in his system it'll still be a conspiracy against the black man
Mort Divine
Shrine Maiden of the In-Crowd
rms
Active Member
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
Are you saying she should have shot him in the leg while he was walking towards his car or at the moment that caused both officers to react with force?
You don't see how saying pointing a gun at someone and giving them commands = letting them control the situation is wrong?
I assert that her biggest mistake was reacting with deadly force when he leaned on his car with his hands in threatening/blocked view positions, you're asserting that she let him do what he wanted and then decided to kill him when back-up arrived because she gained a new sense of bravery?
I mean, that's a view, not one I share though.
Coincidence that the white guy they suddenly care about is homeless?
This doesn't prove anything though, I'm sure if you looked hard enough you'd find a story about a KKK member who gives free school books to inner city black kids too.
In fact the recent "protests" have involved incidents of black mobs targeting random white people for beatdowns. So white lives definitely don't matter in their ideology, unless you're homeless = stripped of all your "privilege."
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rms
Active Member
before he reached the car let alone the window.
"Don't walk to that car" *draws pistol* ---- *walks to the car*
Yep, she's in control.
I don't know why she finally decided to do something. It doesn't make any logical sense. But he did what he wanted, according to her testimony, and she did nothing.
CiG
Harbinger of Metal
So she should have shot him in the leg for walking away from her with his hands in the air? That seems like it would only seem reasonable in a situation wherein you know the future.
Pretty sure she drew her pistol before that part, when he kept allegedly reaching into his pockets.
She decided to do something because he reached/seemed like he reached into his car.
This is why the male officer reacted with a taser at the same time. They both reacted to something and footage would seem to show that the something in question here was threatening to both officers.
Anyway, I don't see us coming to an agreement here.
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