If Mort Divine ruled the world

[CiG]

dude, he was like 5 steps ahead of her. If you can't hit a leg in that range you shouldn't be a police officer nor on the street. Quit making excuses for her garbage mentality and actions.

What mentality is garbage exactly?

It's really a shame you have gone down this path to defending her. Just grasping at anything without anything clear in mind. I expect better, tbh.

Fair enough. I think you're being pretty unreasonable though.

Was the cop justified in using force? I argue no.

She was justified in using force, that's not the arguable part. It's whether she should have killed him that's in question.

Why is this guy getting attention? I just wasted like 15 replies on another board talking about toxic and misinforming BLM has become in regards to this issue. I went nowhere with this other dummy and yet again searching for someone intelligent enough to debate these things on.

BLM hasn't become toxic and misinforming, they directly grew out of toxic politics and misinformation. But you must admit that race is the reason this is a story being elevated above other stories, so you can't exactly leave it out.

You may think I'm just making cheap excuses for her crappy actions (it recently came out that she was known for being skittish btw) but I think I'm just trying to separate the accurate criticisms from the inaccurate criticisms. I think she ultimately made the wrong decision, but I also think your criticisms of the various steps leading up to the man's death are rather weak.

 

[EternalMetal]

Honestly im starting to feel bad for the cops at this point. The BLM movement is promoting an attitude of resentment and non-compliance towards officers, which is ironically forcing cops to be on high alert against black people. It is also promoting the same sort of paranoia that Einherjar just mentioned from the perspective of black people, which means that by default any encounter between the two will be met with both sides being tense and prepared for a potentially violent altercation.

In most of the recent BLM-promoted videos of cop altercations with black people, I see a general attitude of non-compliance on the civilian side of things. For example, a liberal friend of mine just posted a video on facebook about a black PI that encounters an officer wondering why this guy was just sitting in his SUV parked on the side of the street. When asked by the officer if the man was PI or something, the man responds with a question, "Does it appear as if im doing anything illegal?" At this point you can tell that the officer is getting nervous, and he eventually pulls his gun on the man and calls for backup. I assert that if this man was trying to prove his innocence (instead of promoting a BLM sort of agenda), he would have explained to the officer why his atypical looking behavior was an extension of his job, and how he could show him his credentials to prove that he was in compliance with the law. To me it looked like the man used a passive aggressive technique to provoke the officer into escalating the situation, which conveniently there was recording equipment set up to document the encounter because of his PI profession. This cop got played, and is now being victimized to promote the 'cops are violent towards black people' agenda. Link.

My point is that cops seem to be forced into a corner, and when they draw their guns in defense (or god forbid use them in a threatening scenario), they become accused of being trigger happy towards innocent black people. Whether the cop in the scenario that you all are talking about is justified for shooting the man or not, her reaction is understandable given the building animosity between the black community and law enforcement. Both sides are scared, and the resulting paranoia seems to escalate the situation on both sides.

I dont expect police to start putting their guns down in threatening situations just because of a social justice movement. Actually I expect more lapses in judgement due to fear just like the female officer. Does this affirm the BLM movement? I say that it is just the police trying to protect their own lives while trying to do their job. I get that people dont want to prostrate themselves before someone just because they are wearing a uniform, but considering the state of affairs it is best not to provoke police to use violent measures to protect their own lives. To my eyes, the solution is peaceful protest, but from what ive seen from the BLM agenda, this is not happening.

 

[rms]

What mentality is garbage exactly?

damnit dude I just did like 5 posts saying she put herself into a kill or be killed situation. She was illogical, passive, weak and who knows what else. She finally musters courage once others show up, it makes no sense.

She was justified in using force, that's not the arguable part. It's whether she should have killed him that's in question.

Yeah, that's a mistake on my part. Is she criminally liable for what she did? I think she is.

BLM hasn't become toxic and misinforming, they directly grew out of toxic politics and misinformation. But you must admit that race is the reason this is a story being elevated above other stories, so you can't exactly leave it out.

You may think I'm just making cheap excuses for her crappy actions (it recently came out that she was known for being skittish btw) but I think I'm just trying to separate the accurate criticisms from the inaccurate criticisms. I think she ultimately made the wrong decision, but I also think your criticisms of the various steps leading up to the man's death are rather weak.

Not denying that's why this victim is important, its just not what we're discussing at all.

(to the bold) Seriously? You just said it's hard for us to expect cops to be able to shoot a suspect in a non-lethal area (leg in this instance) at almost extreme close range...and my argument is weak?

She didn't tase. She didn't fire a warning shot. She didn't shoot with intent to injure, not kill. She did nothing but let him control the scene/situation. I don't see how any of this is incorrect or whatever other word I cannot think of.

 

[Baroque]

Did the police ever report that he was on PCP? If he was you'd think they would release that information in their defense. That makes me think he was not.

 

[rms]

Last I saw was that there was PCP in the car, which then made everyone black person on facebook think the cops were framing him. Autopsy still isn't out so we don't know toxicology yet. I'm sure if it's in his system it'll still be a conspiracy against the black man

 

[Mort Divine]

Here's a narrative;

White person gets shot by police officer. It isn't news. Nobody cares. Nobody protests.

It's ironic that rms said to stop bringing up race, when the dead man's race is the only reason we're even talking about this.

http://www.laweekly.com/news/an-unarmed-white-man-is-shot-by-a-cop-and-black-activists-rally-7216759

 

[rms]

this mother fucker on another msg board sent me the same damn link

"3 guys from BLM rally for a white victim, see they love everyone!!!"

come on mort...

 

[CiG]

Seriously? You just said it's hard for us to expect cops to be able to shoot a suspect in a non-lethal area (leg in this instance) at almost extreme close range...and my argument is weak?

Are you saying she should have shot him in the leg while he was walking towards his car or at the moment that caused both officers to react with force?

damnit dude I just did like 5 posts saying she put herself into a kill or be killed situation. She was illogical, passive, weak and who knows what else. She finally musters courage once others show up, it makes no sense.

She didn't tase. She didn't fire a warning shot. She didn't shoot with intent to injure, not kill. She did nothing but let him control the scene/situation. I don't see how any of this is incorrect or whatever other word I cannot think of.

You don't see how saying pointing a gun at someone and giving them commands = letting them control the situation is wrong?

I assert that her biggest mistake was reacting with deadly force when he leaned on his car with his hands in threatening/blocked view positions, you're asserting that she let him do what he wanted and then decided to kill him when back-up arrived because she gained a new sense of bravery?

I mean, that's a view, not one I share though.

http://www.laweekly.com/news/an-unarmed-white-man-is-shot-by-a-cop-and-black-activists-rally-7216759

Coincidence that the white guy they suddenly care about is homeless?

This doesn't prove anything though, I'm sure if you looked hard enough you'd find a story about a KKK member who gives free school books to inner city black kids too.

In fact the recent "protests" have involved incidents of black mobs targeting random white people for beatdowns. So white lives definitely don't matter in their ideology, unless you're homeless = stripped of all your "privilege."

 

[rms]

Are you saying she should have shot him in the leg while he was walking towards his car or at the moment that caused both officers to react with force?

before he reached the car let alone the window.

You don't see how saying pointing a gun at someone and giving them commands = letting them control the situation is wrong?

"Don't walk to that car" *draws pistol* ---- *walks to the car*

Yep, she's in control.

you're asserting that she let him do what he wanted and then decided to kill him when back-up arrived because she gained a new sense of bravery?

I don't know why she finally decided to do something. It doesn't make any logical sense. But he did what he wanted, according to her testimony, and she did nothing.

 

[CiG]

before he reached the car let alone the window.

So she should have shot him in the leg for walking away from her with his hands in the air? That seems like it would only seem reasonable in a situation wherein you know the future.

"Don't walk to that car" *draws pistol* ---- *walks to the car*

Yep, she's in control.

Pretty sure she drew her pistol before that part, when he kept allegedly reaching into his pockets.

I don't know why she finally decided to do something. It doesn't make any logical sense. But he did what he wanted, according to her testimony, and she did nothing.

She decided to do something because he reached/seemed like he reached into his car.

This is why the male officer reacted with a taser at the same time. They both reacted to something and footage would seem to show that the something in question here was threatening to both officers.

Anyway, I don't see us coming to an agreement here.

 

[The Ozzman]

 

[Baroque]

I'm not sure it's about the law in that picture. Do the police legally have the right to kill you for not obeying a command? Especially if you are not formally under arrest? If so that's one fucked up law. At what point did we make police judge jury and executioner? Their motto is to "serve and protect," not "kill all who don't comply". I'm not ok with giving up all of my freedom as a human being just because a dude in a uniform said so.

 

[Baroque]

Are you seriously saying that disobeying a police officer should be a crime punishable by death? You're okay with giving them that power? That's some third world shit imo.

 

[CiG]

Ozz's meme aside, I'm not sure this shooting falls under your question. He wasn't shot for noncompliance.

To your question, no I don't think anybody should be shot for noncompliance alone.

 

[Einherjar86]

Here's a narrative;

White person gets shot by police officer. It isn't news. Nobody cares. Nobody protests.

It's ironic that rms said to stop bringing up race, when the dead man's race is the only reason we're even talking about this.

You're right - race matters, nobody protests white deaths (or very few do), and the media isn't interested in covering it.

I'm simply commenting on a general cultural impression of black victims versus white victims. The backlash of BLM and the media coverage is a response to a particular phenomenon: the tendency to demonize black victims and not white victims. This is not necessarily a conscious demonization, but simply the way they're treated in the criminal justice system. Death stats aside, given a black man and white man accused of the same crime, the black man is likely to suffer harsher consequences.

All of this has to do with optics, which inform how we construct narratives about these events. I'm interested in the narratives created around black deaths because this happens to be the cultural craze right now, and I count myself part of the camp who thinks these narratives play a big role in shaping our reactions to events.

None of this excuses the slaying of whites by cops.

 

[Dak]

Death stats aside, given a black man and white man accused of the same crime, the black man is likely to suffer harsher consequences.

I could be wrong on this, but it seems like I read that some of this has to do with sentencing requirements for repeat offenders.

 

[CiG]

What Dak said. I'm pretty sure I read that too.

 

[Einherjar86]

This is a good point, making explicit the repeat offenders issue, which feeds into minimum sentencing requirements.

Just to reiterate, I'm not saying this is a conscious demonization; so I didn't mean to imply that a judge looks at a black defendant and says "I don't like the look of you boy," or something like that. I mean that this is all part of a cycle that cannot be reduced to any single individual involved - nor can it be blamed on the system per se, since the system is just doing what it does. It would take immense restructuring to change anything, and restructuring of that size is bound to have unforeseeable negative consequences elsewhere.

By cycle, I just mean that cops tend to target blacks for certain offenses because they know that blacks are more likely to commit certain offenses - and this tends to be accurate, reasons aside. So they secure more arrests and more charges by doing so, judges get more repeat offenders, and more blacks are sentenced to harsher prison time. And it's pretty well-documented that prison doesn't do much as far as rehabilitation goes, so on being released they revert to old practices and behaviors; and on top of that, members of their families have likely engaged in such behavior too in order to make up for lost income.

Focusing on just one aspect of this isn't enough, because weakening one component of the cycle means that it can be exploited more effectively at other points. So it just keeps going. There is, however, a narrative and general organization of racial optics (these are vague and abstract terms, I know) that informs this cycle, and it's very tough to make any changes at all while the narrative remains. And in some respects, that narrative may be accurate; but the power of suggestion is as powerful, if not more powerful, than telling a truthful story.

 

[CiG]

There needs to be drastic shifts in focus and values in the black community towards intact families, rather than anything to do with restructuring the system in my opinion.

 

[Baroque]