If Mort Divine ruled the world

[Baroque]

A fair question is, does a citizen legally have to comply with the "commands" of a police officer if they're not under arrest? Unless he had been read his rights I think he could have legally walked to his car.

 

[Elric of Melniboné]

It can be difficult to decide what is and is not considered a lawful command. Police officers can order you to do some things that you have to obey, but the things that are considered lawful commands vary depending on the state you're in, the situation and whether or not the police have probable cause to stop you or give you instructions.

I'm not informed enough on this particular situation to make a judgment call, but it would be based on those factors.

 

[rms]

The helicopter footage features a man saying "he keeps walking, he's not responding to commands, I think it's time for a taser."

That to me would suggest that they know he was being told to do something other than walk towards his car.



Not sure what your point is here.

The same who said "he looks like a bad guy" from 1k feet in the air. I'd be surprised if helicopter radio was the same frequency as on the ground, anyways.

She said, in the article you linked, that she pulled her gun out before her taser because she thought he had a gun on him. He then takes 10 or so steps to his car and leans up against the window when he is shot.

If you think he has a gun and he isn't listening to your commands, why not taser first? You don't need to 2 hand a pistol at that range to be accurate. Nor should you require a lethal shot at any time before he reaches that window (if you suspect he really is on PCP and has a gun in that car seat/location).

Her actions are not logical in the entire scenario. She seems entirely liable for the death of him because of her inaction or overreaction -- whichever narrative is factual.

 

[Dak]

Uh, why would you taser an armed person first? And why wouldn't you try to maintain proper shooting form merely because of range?

 

[rms]

Armed with his hands in the air? Come on...if you're not going to shoot at him instantly, then how else do you dictate the scenario? Letting him do whatever he is doing and then just shoot?

Because she was in no danger with his back turned? If he was in fact out of control?

 

[Dak]

Armed with his hands in the air? Come on...if you're not going to shoot at him instantly, then how else do you dictate the scenario? Letting him do whatever he is doing and then just shoot?

Because she was in no danger with his back turned? If he was in fact out of control?

I haven't watched the vids or read up on that shooting. I'm just questioning your assertions. Tasers are for subduing unarmed suspects. Shooting without proper form is for emergencies or idiots when we are talking about anything other than plinking target practice.

 

[rms]

for this video, a dude walks like 10-12 steps with a female officer behind his back (her gun is pointed at him), 'allows' him or tells him to put his arms on the vehicle. Dude reaches into vehicle, dude gets shot.

She said she pulled her gun out first because she thought he had a gun. I don't think it's logical, and I was saying you can hold a taser and a pistol at the same time ala a little maglite -- if need be

 

[Dak]

for this video, a dude walks like 10-12 steps with a female officer behind his back (her gun is pointed at him), 'allows' him or tells him to put his arms on the vehicle. Dude reaches into vehicle, dude gets shot.

She said she pulled her gun out first because she thought he had a gun. I don't think it's logical, and I was saying you can hold a taser and a pistol at the same time ala a little maglite -- if need be

Well I don't know anything about the details in terms of why she thought he had a gun to begin with. But it makes no sense to draw both the taser and the gun if you know anything about how either work. Reaching into a vehicle is a massive no-no when a cop is already on high alert.

 

[rms]

Reaching into a vehicle is a massive no-no when a cop is already on high alert.

For sure, but the situation escalated to that point because she had no control nor attempt to control it.

Taser gun is a simple point and shoot and then you can press it again for repeated charges...so it's not really that complex?

 

[Dak]

For sure, but the situation escalated to that point because she had no control nor attempt to control it.

I'm sure that had nothing to do with the sex difference either.

Taser gun is a simple point and shoot and then you can press it again for repeated charges...so it's not really that complex?

Point and shoot isn't so simple with one hand, offhand, when trying to hold and aim a pistol as well.

 

[CiG]

A fair question is, does a citizen legally have to comply with the "commands" of a police officer if they're not under arrest? Unless he had been read his rights I think he could have legally walked to his car.

It might be a fair question with a sober citizen, but I'm not sure how it would apply with a citizen every officer suspects is on something and acting irrational. Do officers read rights to people on PCP? Somehow I don't see it happening.

The same who said "he looks like a bad guy" from 1k feet in the air. I'd be surprised if helicopter radio was the same frequency as on the ground, anyways.

This has been a repeated thing with this incident, not fully quoting the bad dude statement so it makes it seem racial or something. It's dishonest.

He actually says "he looks like a bad dude, probably on something."

As to the radio, I have no idea. Surely helicopter officers were in contact with ground officers.

allows' him or tells him to put his arms on the vehicle. Dude reaches into vehicle, dude gets shot.

What proof is there that she told him to put his hands on his car? I don't remember reading that.

she had no control nor attempt to control it.

Holding a gun to someone and telling them to stop isn't an attempt at control?

 

[Dak]

Holding a gun to someone and telling them to stop isn't an attempt at control?

Control is not needing a gun ldo.

 

[rms]

I'm sure that had nothing to do with the sex difference either.

But she shot once other officers showed up, it's peculiar. She had tools available to limit the gap between tiny female officer and big black dude. She decided not to use those tools to limit the difference and instead removed one piece of the equation

Point and shoot isn't so simple with one hand, offhand, when trying to hold and aim a pistol as well.

This seems like a problem with training/expectation than the possibility of it not occurring. She chose to pull her weapon out first, it was a mistake at the very least until he reached that window.

but I'm not sure how it would apply with a citizen every officer suspects is on something and acting irrational. Do officers read rights to people on PCP?

Here's the problem -- how do we know she really thought this? How do we know this isn't an action of self-preservation? Releasing any information that would corroborate this story, the communications for example, would make this situation's PR look much much more favorable. But it hasn't been released.

He actually says "he looks like a bad dude, probably on something."

Will you quit bringing up race? I'm not CF, I have no interest in having a race discussion. The dude made an assessment of a possible perpetrator from far as fuck -- dude is not a reliable source of information or expertise.

Surely helicopter officers were in contact with ground officers.

Much more likely the helicopter was in contact with the base of operations, not the officers on the ground. There'd be no reason for shared communication between the two

What proof is there that she told him to put his hands on his car? I don't remember reading that.

I said or for a reason. If she told him to put his hands on the car, she is at fault. If she allowed him to put his hands on the car, she is at fault. She made a series of errors no matter which way the scenario played out.

Holding a gun to someone and telling them to stop isn't an attempt at control?

If you have no intent to assert control, yes. She had no intention to assert control, she chose to eliminate the threat--not de-escalate. She has to live with that choice.

 

[CiG]

But she shot once other officers showed up

She and a male officer both shot in reaction to something which is obvious from the footage. She alone didn't react to a perceived threat. That to me demonstrates that she didn't intent to kill him but rather just get him to comply, her unwillingness to shoot him is further implied by the fact that she didn't shoot him the whole time he was supposedly ignoring commands and walking towards his vehicle.

Here's the problem -- how do we know she really thought this? How do we know this isn't an action of self-preservation? Releasing any information that would corroborate this story, the communications for example, would make this situation's PR look much much more favorable. But it hasn't been released.

We don't. But I see no reason to believe it's a lie that he was noncompliant and probably on drugs since he had PCP in his car and he has a history of drug use, plus he was parked in the middle of the road claimig his car was about to blow up.

Will you quit bringing up race? I'm not CF, I have no interest in having a race discussion. The dude made an assessment of a possible perpetrator from far as fuck -- dude is not a reliable source of information or expertise.

Much more likely the helicopter was in contact with the base of operations, not the officers on the ground. There'd be no reason for shared communication between the two

If you say so. But if the helicopter is in contact with command through the radio and so are the ground officers, I think it's likely they have some basic information. Noncompliant, possibly drug addled is base info, especially since the female officer must have radioed in for back-up.

I said or for a reason. If she told him to put his hands on the car, she is at fault. If she allowed him to put his hands on the car, she is at fault. She made a series of errors no matter which way the scenario played out.

What do you mean by, if she allowed him?

If you have no intent to assert control, yes. She had no intention to assert control, she chose to eliminate the threat--not de-escalate. She has to live with that choice.

Again, how is a withdrawal of a gun not an attempt to assert control?

If he's not on drugs, a gun and stern commands is an attempt to assert control.
If he is on drugs and is therefore not acting rationally, a gun probably isn't going to assert anything, but apparently she drew her weapon before it was assumed he was on drugs, according to her because he kept reaching into his pockets.

The odd thing being in this Tulsa case, I don't know if she even realized she had drawn her sidearm and not her taser. Usually when a cop is going to put someone down, their training would instruct them to double tap the suspect. She fired only a single shot, then seemed to stop herself. And from what I've heard, the rest of the officers around her had only drawn their tasers.

That's probably a stretch, besides she admits to consciously drawing her pistol.

 

[CiG]

Ultimately I do agree with rms, that she made a mistake and basically broke under stress. I just happen to disagree with most of the criticisms I'm seeing.

 

[rms]

She and a male officer both shot in reaction to something which is obvious from the footage.

She was the only one charged and autopsy says 1 bullet to the chest killed him? I think he was tased before he was shot, though?

What do you mean by, if she allowed him?

She let him walk to his car. If it's true, yelling to stop isn't enough in that situation, if she values her own life. The possibility of danger of a possible erratic and drugged up suspect going back to his vehicle increases by an exponential amount.

Warning shots, shots to the leg, taser would have made sense logically if he was in fact not responding to commands. But following him and doing nothing, then shooting him as the amount of uncertainty reached its peak, is a mistake on her part and she should be held liable. .

Again, how is a withdrawal of a gun not an attempt to assert control?

People fear a gun because it would be used against them. Dude did not fear her, and I think its obvious she had no intent to use it until she reached a point of fear + uncertainty. The pulling of the gun is meaningless

 

[CiG]

She was the only one charged and autopsy says 1 bullet to the chest killed him? I think he was tased before he was shot, though?

Oh yeah I meant, she fired her pistol and a second or less later he tased him.

She let him walk to his car. If it's true, yelling to stop isn't enough in that situation, if she values her own life. The possibility of danger of a possible erratic and drugged up suspect going back to his vehicle increases by an exponential amount.

Warning shots, shots to the leg, taser would have made sense logically if he was in fact not responding to commands. But following him and doing nothing, then shooting him as the amount of uncertainty reached its peak, is a mistake on her part and she should be held liable. .

I guess you and I define doing nothing and giving permission very differently. Also everybody mentions the leg shot thing in these situations, but I remember reading that actually pulling off such a specific shot is quite hard, especially in those kinds of situations.

People fear a gun because it would be used against them. Dude did not fear her, and I think its obvious she had no intent to use it until she reached a point of fear + uncertainty. The pulling of the gun is meaningless

Because he was very likely on drugs, which according to her was apparent post-pulling of her gun.

 

[Einherjar86]

Same scenario, different narrative:

Black man, high on PCP, becomes stressed and begins acting erratically out of fear that he might be shot by a white police officer. As it turns out, his fear was well-founded.

But none of that really matters, because he was a black man on PCP. And she was a police officer.

Alas, I'm only a literary scholar - I'm interested in narratives, not in reality. But as Foucault should have said, perspective is power.

 

[CiG]

Here's a narrative;

White person gets shot by police officer. It isn't news. Nobody cares. Nobody protests.

It's ironic that rms said to stop bringing up race, when the dead man's race is the only reason we're even talking about this.

 

[rms]

Also everybody mentions the leg shot thing in these situations, but I remember reading that actually pulling off such a specific shot is quite hard, especially in those kinds of situations.

dude, he was like 5 steps ahead of her. If you can't hit a leg in that range you shouldn't be a police officer nor on the street. Quit making excuses for her garbage mentality and actions.

Because he was very likely on drugs, which according to her was apparent post-pulling of her gun.

It's really a shame you have gone down this path to defending her. Just grasping at anything without anything clear in mind. I expect better, tbh.

It's ironic that rms said to stop bringing up race, when the dead man's race is the only reason we're even talking about this.

There are two issues here, and one i'm engaged on in this forum and the other on another message board.

1. Was the cop justified in using force? I argue no.

2. Why is this guy getting attention? I just wasted like 15 replies on another board talking about toxic and misinforming BLM has become in regards to this issue. I went nowhere with this other dummy and yet again searching for someone intelligent enough to debate these things on.