kill crips and tards?

Isn't this sort of irrelevant? I mean, even if Cairath did accept such a view I'm sure he'd maintain that positing God doesn't explain our experience very well. And I happen to think that these explanations have a lot to do with the real world (or at least what we think about the real world). When we explain some aspect of our experience in these ways we are making a judgment as to how things really are.

edit: oh I see that Cairath did in fact make the point I anticipated.

I'm making a distinction between a reality in our experience and the real world aside from that experience as it actually exists. The latter is irrelevant to science/God, the former is not.

Which is what AchrisK intended to say.
 
I might close this soon...everyone please hand in your closing arguments and let's be done with it.

Sound good?

Holy smokes, it's a WARNING!

How often do we get one of those before a thread gets closed around here? Quite a pleasant surprise, really.
 
Why not just change the thread title to "abortion debate"? Then there won't be any problem.
 
I don't really understand why this needs to be closed. What harm is it doing? Eventually everyone will have had their say and the argument will have gone in circles a few times and everyone will get bored and the thread will die a happy and natural death. And looking at the current front page of the forum I'd say this thread has more substance than a good amount of other threads that are free to remain open.

Anyway for what's worth I apologize for my part in turning the last page sour. I guess AchrisK (if I may speak for him) and myself were reading more into each other's phrasing than was really implied. I enjoy arguing with you even if it is clear that we'll never agree on topics like these.

Anyway, unless someone brings something new to the table I am probably done too.

Why not just change the thread title to "abortion debate"? Then there won't be any problem.

I thought it was kind of funny how the topic start called for intelligent debate yet the thread title was "kill crips and tards".
 
My closing argument: Retardation is a resource ripe for exploitation. Not only is it costly for people to care for these morons with equipments and such, but it's also damned funny.

It's our duty as capitalists to take full advantage of money making opportunities, whether it simply be caring for the retarded for profit or having them fight over scraps of bacon in a giant arena. (I fully condone the arena innovation and encourage it to be practiced in every major metropolitan area)
 
I see no need to close this thread. People are debating in a way that is largely ad hominem-free. This is a good thing.

To address the original question; should people kill defective humans? Let the parents decide. Laws already allow for abortions. If parents can detect the defects early, then let them decide. I tend to frown on late term abortions, especially if the fetus could survive without medical intervention, i.e. a premature baby that could still get by with her mother's care. A five month old that would be a medical miracle is not a human on the same line.

Regardless of how they feel about abortion, I have a hard time understanding those who wish for abortion to be legalized. Creating a black market for abortion is clearly worse than the current system in place. By and large, our legal system is based on what allows the most people to live happily, not religious morals. If killing people, or burglary or drunk driving were legal, people would eventually decide: this is not what we want. With abortion, I think we have reached a sensible conclusion that satisfies society at large.

To address other points: AchrisK continues to say that a zygote automatically results in a human life, and he ignores the people who have said that this is not the case. It's true that many zygotes are washed away by the reproductive system. More than can be measured. More people have natural miscarriages in the first trimester than is commonly thought. This is not something women bring up while in line at the grocery store. Nor are second or third trimester miscarriages. The point is that a zygote is far from a guarantee of human life. A zygote requires a series of conditions to be met in order to result in human life, just as an egg cell requires a series of conditions to be met in order to result in human life. (In case it wasn't clear before, I consider human life to be life that sustains without substantial medical attention at birth.)

It would be preferable that people never had abortions, nor had need to have abortions. Our laws are thankfully not based on religious morals. You can't impose one religion's morality on a populace that doesn't share that morality. Clearly enough of the US populace wants a choice. The bumper sticker holds true: those who disapprove of abortion can steer clear, and those who don't are free to do so. I personally do not endorse abortion, but I'm glad people have the right to have one, because not everyone shares my values, and mine aren't superior.

Societies generally will make laws that will better that society. The legalization of abortion was actually shown to decrease crime. A single abortion does not worsen society. A kid born in the ghetto who is an extra strain on public funds and who will likely be a felon and be on welfare does. Thus for many people the approval of abortion.
 
Anyway for what's worth I apologize for my part in turning the last page sour. I guess AchrisK (if I may speak for him) and myself were reading more into each other's phrasing than was really implied. I enjoy arguing with you even if it is clear that we'll never agree on topics like these.

:headbang:

Me too.

I thought it was kind of funny how the topic start called for intelligent debate yet the thread title was "kill crips and tards".

:lol:

totally!
 
So, basically, the point that the 'pro-choice' people have been getting at with the viability statistics of zygotes is that there's no precedent in nature for considering zygotes on par with full-fledged humans. Hopefully that wraps up the question of whether the likelihood of a zygote's survival has any bearing on its status as a full human.

What I'd really like to see you address though, AchrisK, is why you think it's so important for us to respect these zygotes as if they're full humans.

First off, it's not like the world is a sanctuary for human life anyway - people are dying all the time through violence, starvation and disease. There's really no need to get upset over there not being another human being on the planet - there are enough of us as it is, and if there's ever room for more of us, you can bet your ass that we'll occupy it.

That said, I expect that your best defense for this is going to be the "right to life" argument, if you wish to take it. Obviously this concept is meaningless in the context of nature, what with all the massive losses of life that occur all the time.

Now, as to whether this 'right' has meaning in a human context: my belief is that it's just a convenient way of coping with our natural discomfort over death. We don't want to live in a world full of death, so as a result we seek to 'enforce' life. This is quite understandable when you consider how painful it is to be a friend or relative of someone who dies; but it's pretty hard to 'feel' for the death of a zygote. In that sense, there doesn't seem to be any real gain in investing zygotes with the same 'right' we give to full-grown people who are actually in the world and have an effect on others.
 
I thought it was kind of funny how the topic start called for intelligent debate yet the thread title was "kill crips and tards".

yeah, i was trying to add some humor through irony.

wow, this thread exploded! i would have never guessed...
~gR~
 
and while thats a good thing to try and do, we often cant treat them like normal people. and i dont mean that socially. lets face it, often times they cant take care of themselves. that ofcourse depends on how disabled they are.

if they can function in society with little or no problems, then we should ofcourse treat them as normal people. but when i started this thread i think i had seriously disabled people in mind.
~gR~