Music: The Most Intellectually Demanding Artform?

Laeth MacLaurie said:
And the po-mo's have shown that science itself is logically contradictory and can claim no special ability to produce knowledge. Your point?

First, that's a mischaracterization of what postmodernists claim. Second, does anyone actually take postmodernism seriously? Hardly.

Analytical philosophy (indeed, the entire Anglo-American liberal tradition) stakes a claim to producing objective knowledge, but what it actually produces are populist collections of semantic "gotchas" while ignoring its own assumptions about the nature of truth, knowledge and the possibility of objective analysis. Not to mention the hypocrisy of attacking the "pretentiousness" of traditional philosophical discourse while making ludicrous claims about the "proper" aesthetic approach to philosophy (which apparently means writing to the tastes of the uneducated and grotesquely simplifying all issues so the proles can grasp the concepts presented).

Have you read anything post-Quine? A huge percentage of analytic philosophers have given up on objective knowledge quite some time ago...

And you've hit upon why a rigid adherence to formal logic doesn't produce anything useful: it doesn't deal with the content of arguments, but with how they are structured. It matters not a whit to the logical analyst whether a proposition is true, but rather whether it is presented in the "proper" format. The Analytical movement spent all of its time playing "gotcha" with the past (and with contemporary rivals) and never got around to you know, presenting any ideas of its own (beyond its implicit support of Anglo-American neoliberalism).

There are two parts to the study of arguments: syntax and semantics. Content and form. You can't study arguments without studying both.

Logic has its uses, but it is one tool of many, not the paramount or only tool as the Anglo-American tradition would have you believe. The end product of such thinking is the technocratic utilitarianism that is destroying the world as we speak.

Like hyperbole much? I know several of the world's most respected logicians personally, and even they don't worship it as much as you claim.

I have no problem with the content of the logic, just with the assumption that logic tells you anything beyond whether an argument's structure conforms to the rules of formal logic. It doesn't get at the questions of truth or function, which seem to me to have far more value. There's a reason that the Analytics have tended to focus on mathematics and theories of science while ignoring metaphysical and ethical questions (at least within the context of their formal work, Russell comes to mind as one who certainly addressed ethical questions, at least in a practical sense, but he did so explicitly outside the purview of his philosophical work); metaphysical and ethical questions don't respond well to logical analysis. Oh, certainly they'll occasionally weigh in to criticize the arguments of those not so attached to rigid logical constructions, but they produce no positive contributions of their own to these fields.

I've yet to meet one person informed in logic who makes that assumption. And if you're saying that the "Analytics" have ignored ethical and metaphysical questions, what of Lewis, Plantinga, Kaplan, Simons, Fine, Foot, Rachels, and the others in the long, long line of contemporary analytic philosophers studying ethics and metaphysics?

Intellectual chops? This from someone whose arguments thus far have consisted of appeals to unspecified authority, the presentation of personal theories as "historical fact" and personal attacks?

I've not presented one personal theory. Anything I've said has corroboration. I've yet to see your evidence, and anything on your part beyond conjecture. Appeals to unspecificed authority? I appeal to the history of philosophy, and not the revisionist history you tend to favor. Personal attacks? Thus far, they've been less attacks and more observations. Harsh observations, but you've done nothing but deserve them.


Literacy criticism?

Is what Derrida's work amounts to, yes. Ask some literacy critics.
 
Blodsmert said:
That's not news 'fella', however the people who do talk about this sort of thing without having to look it up on the internet don't do it on websites devoted to heavy metal.

Really? That's news to me.

Why not?

Because, smartypants, they do it at their local Phil and Lit society, where their 'opinions' are not seen as pathetic attempts to be the internet tough, yet highly intelligent, guy.

That's where I do it during the day, and on most evenings. It's my job. Sometimes I feel like putting off work, so I read message boards. When I see someone taking something that I hold dearly and do for a living and saying that it is inherently anti-Semitic (or anything similarly absurd and damaging), I feel the urge to say something. It's at least a little more productive than listing my top 10 favorite albums that no one cares about, or debating about who was the first black metal band (again). And to be clear, I've not presented one of my personal opinions here, save for the bit about my problems with Kant.

Of course you aren't making me suffer, I was using what grown-ups call irony, wit and hyperbole. You would have recognised this if either...
  • You took your head outta your arse, or
  • You were bright enough
By the way, pseud is a common term to describe people like you and the foolishly named troll. It's not clever, it's sad.
[/QUOTE]

Wit? Sorry, I missed it. Look, comments like this just hurt your case. This is a discussion in which you're obviously out of your territory. I mean no judgment by that, since its understandable. Anyone without significant background in the area would be out of their territory. I'd be similarly out of my territory were this a conversation about, say, microeconomics or horticulture. So instead of just forgetting about it, ignoring, or reading it and trying to learn something, you get on here and slag people, calling them stupid because you don't follow the conversation? Obviously, if you think it's a waste of time or don't really understand what we are saying, that means that we're the ones who have the problem, and we're pseudo-intellectuals? Sure, duder, sure.

And yes, I do realize that this should have been in the other forum, but the conversation started in this thread in this forum, and I've been responding appropriately. If anyone out there is actually bothered by the fact that a few folks are having a conversation in a thread, one which they might not be interested in, well, they've got some issues. It's not a big deal.
 
'Duder'??

I can't argue against such lofty linguistical phrasing. Your claims to be some sort of super-scientist philosopher extraordinaire must be true.

Thanks for enlightening us here at GMD instead of wasting your time with solving the mysteries of existence.
 
Blodsmert said:
'Duder'??

I can't argue against such lofty linguistical phrasing. Your claims to be some sort of super-scientist philosopher extraordinaire must be true.

Thanks for enlightening us here at GMD instead of wasting your time with solving the mysteries of existence.

My pleasure.
 
After reading this thread from start to finish i apologise for my disgraceful attempts at hi-jacking a truly interesting and enlightening thread by promoting the sale of what is possibly the most brutal album ever recorded.

I once again apologise.
 
Cythraul said:
back in the day.

I am guessing you changed your mind on Nietzsche because you find it false how he said Judeo-Christianity directly spawned all the liberal, egalitarean views of today and past instances of lower class rebellion against the aristocracy.
 
The_Harmathroditic_Ferret said:
Why do you make this assumption that liberalism is counter-opposed to Nietzche? Isn't it most liberals who invoke Idealism and believe in the dissolution of relgion? If anything, I say that Idealism is one of it's cornerstones.

No, liberalism is completely opposed to Nietzsche's views. He was for the aristocracy being the authority over the masses. Liberals believe in rights and power for the masses than an elitist hierachy/caste system that Nietzsche proposed.
 
That alone? His meta-ethics, metaphysical nihilism, his assesment of good and evil, Moral Relativism don't strike you at all as liberal? And who really classify's Nietzche on his socio-economic beliefs over his ethics anyway?

Nietzche is renouned for his ethics not his politics. But just for fun, ever hear the ironic statement "Nietzsche detested Nationalism, Socialism, Germans and mass movements, so naturally he was adopted as the intellectual mascot of the National Socialist German Workers' Party."

Saying Nietzche is conservative because he favors the aristocrats is like saying Hume is liberal because he supported the liberty of press.

And once again for the record, Nietzche is STLL NOT Anti-Semetic.
 
The_Harmathroditic_Ferret said:
That alone? His meta-ethics, metaphysical nihilism, his assesment of good and evil, Moral Relativism don't strike you at all as liberal?

It doesn't strike me as liberal. It could be applied to a freewheeling democracy, but also a tyranny. If it is accepted that no moral values are the right ones and they're all equal as mere social constructions, then there are no grounds for criticizing the tyrant for imposing his will however he likes. What he's doing isn't wrong or unethical, it simply is. Criticizing him could never lead to a change for the better because nothing is better. This is why in the Republic, democracy devolves into tyranny. Both are dominated by a nihilistic relativism.
 
Demiurge said:
It doesn't strike me as liberal. It could be applied to a freewheeling democracy, but also a tyranny. If it is accepted that no moral values are the right ones and they're all equal as mere social constructions, then there are no grounds for criticizing the tyrant for imposing his will however he likes. What he's doing isn't wrong or unethical, it simply is. Criticizing him could never lead to a change for the better because nothing is better. This is why in the Republic, democracy devolves into tyranny. Both are dominated by a nihilistic relativism.

In theory but not practice. Can you provide me with a specific example, or possible future example of a state that would implement this?

I find it nearly impossible for a government to begin if initially the people have no conception or belief in morals. Why would the people submit to a leader on a morally equally playing field. The ruler must be above them morally for them to follow, an example to follow, at the very least initially. When the future leaders do not meet these standards, the ruled people reble. I don't think it would be possible for a government to exist in that type of field, and I certainly cannot name one that exists to this day.
 
Okay, I am back sooner than I'd thought. I just edited in a long reply, but my browser lost it, so I'm mad as hell. Fuck, I'm not going to do it again, so this will be very short.

The potential despot does not position himself as morally superior. He makes himself the representative of the people. Even after he takes power, he will talk about what he's done for the people and their nation, not for himself. He is fundamentally a populist. For how the tyranny arises from democracy... In democracy, liberty is the good. As the system becomes more and more democratic, the sole good becomes doing as one pleases. Society is divided into socioeconomic classes. There are licentious spendthrifts, who are true democratic men. They lead esthetic lives with no particular goal in mind besides random indulgence and experimentation. There are the successful business men. They are the capitalists; they have the wealth. Then there are the common workers. They perform the necessary tasks to keep society running. These laborers do not make much money or occupy an esteemed rung on the social ladder. Their main concern is sustenance. They have little time to devote to education in the nature of politics or to indulge in the activities they fancy. The spendthrifts will eventually attack the private property of the capitalists. They will attempt to get the workers to support their cause by preaching anarchic liberty as the ultimate good. The businessmen are responsible for holding everyone back from doing as they please, so they should be forced to spread their wealth. Of course, the businessmen wll not stand for this, so they will unite against the multitude. The leader(s) of the people will find themselves threatened by the capitalists, most likely their very lives, so bodyguards will be requested to protect the interests of the people. At this point, a tyranny is close at hand. Soon, they will begin executing and imprisoning the adversaries of the revolutionary regime. This is no problem, though, because enemies of the state are enemies of the people. After all, this state was formed to give the majority what they desire. As you can see, the despot isn't appealing to morality, he is appealing to greed. The democracy I speak of has no solid moral foundation. The only thing of value is the maximization of choice, or the "right" to do whatever one wants. The leader seizes power by using the desire of democratic people for as much freedom as possible(that it wouldn't be good for them is irrelevant because the tyrant is a demagogue and will promise anything to gain their favor). To sum it up, there is social inequality, which leads to strife. The poor are brought around to the idea of taking from the rich, who defend themselves. The leader of the poor requests physical protection from the onslaught of the wealthy. As his power grows, he begins to persecute his enemies.

Some other comments:

Aristotle asserted that men had more teeth than woman. Married twice, he never even bothered to examine his wives teeth to confirm the statement. Anyone who still listens to the Greeks for anything aside mathematics is an uninformed fool.

I don't agree with this at all. Anyone who listens to the ancient Greeks on matters of natural science is an uninformed fool, but, for instance, Aristotle's ethics have stood the test of time. His philosophy is still highly influential and with good reason. When considering the Nicomachean Ethics, who really gives a damn what he thought about his wife's teeth? Nobody.

I have no quarrel with Kant, except he couldn't write for shit. Nietzche is like Hobbes. A little displacement, a School of One. He has no students, no one continues his work. He's jjust a little speedbumb in philosophical history.

Nietzsche is an enormously influential philospher, especially in Europe.

Heidegger had a Jewish teacher (Husserl) whom he loved and was heavilly pressured by his publisher to remove an introduction by him in his work Being and Time. And you wouldn't rate Husserl over Heidegger? Thats propostrous. Heidegger is just a mere continuation of phenomonlogy, Husserl was the founding proponent, and Heidegger only did such minimal expansion.

Regardless of what you think of either, if you believe that Heidegger was content to live in Husserl's shadow and minimally expand on him, well, that's just crazy. Husserl developed the phenomenological method and Heidegger applied it to ontology. What each of them sought to accomplish is completely different.

Why do you make this assumption that liberalism is counter-opposed to Nietzche? Isn't it most liberals who invoke Idealism and believe in the dissolution of relgion? If anything, I say that Idealism is one of it's cornerstones

Could you rephrase this? I don't understand it.