politics
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Dead Winter
STAHP
I've never seen anyone get so upset over the fact that someone doesn't like the same music as you do, and I even like electronic music
. I'm glad I like Gojira! First of all, get over yourself. Secondly, we're not talking about his originals, are we? That's the whole point of this argument, is that I felt he ruined the beautiful Adagio piece. Nowhere did you see any comment on his originals because it's a moot point. I'm sure they're great, but that's not what I have a problem with, is it? And if you'll notice, I said "bands of any merit" don't play covers in front of 25,000 people. I'm not saying one or two songs, I'm saying complete shows of ripping off other people's material. The fact is, whether you like it or not and as talented as they may be, most DJs don't write their own music and they just sample other people's stuff...that's the basis of electronic music, mostly. It's the nature of the beast and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but my problem is that they aren't creating anything new, just making it shinier. If I put Master of Puppets into Reason 4.0 and completely change it around and remix it, should I be commended for it? No. Maybe for my Reason 4.0 user prowess, but that's about as far as it goes. When you borrow from other people's work to create your own with a computer program, you're an engineer, not a musician. You told me it's my perogative to dislike someone because of that, and then you fucking flame me for it. Which is it, Kevin? Make up your mind. Am I allowed to dislike something based on my own opinion or am I full of shit because of it?
And by the way, guys in cover bands aren't pretending to be something they aren't. Guys in tribute bands, however, are.
Dude, I never said anything about their sole purpose being their wanting to become famous. YOU show ME where I said that. I have a problem with people becoming famous off of the hard work of other artists, which as I said, is rampant in any form of music where sampling is involved. It's the nature of the beast, but I don't have to like it.
You need to realize that your taste in music isn't the be-all end-all and that other people don't have to like what you like. In fact, they can say that only faggots and assholes listen to your music but that doesn't mean they're full of shit, only misinformed. That's called having an opinion, and that's something you're going to have to get over and stop being so oversensitive about.
EricT
Don't you ever get...
The point is that Tiesto is one of the best "electronic mixers" in the world. Seriously, he's great live. Excellent shows every time. Plus you always get to see wrinkly 40 year old raver titties. Nothing better.
Dead Winter
STAHP
I'm sure he is and I'm sure if I saw him live I'd be fucking blown away. I've never disputed that. But if you tell me, "oooh listen to Adagio by Tiesto, it's amazing!" and I disagree because I don't like classical music ripped off for mixing purposes, that's my perogative.
If I think Ours is one of the most underrated bands in the last 9 years and you disagree, then you disagree. You're not full of shit, you just have a differing opinion.
That's like saying Malmsteen is the greatest guitarist alive for doing Paganini's Caprice...well, technically that may be true...technically. But if I dislike Malmsteen, I don't care if he plays it with his balls; if I don't like his rendition of it or what he's done with it, that's that.
If I think Ours is one of the most underrated bands in the last 9 years and you disagree, then you disagree. You're not full of shit, you just have a differing opinion.
That's like saying Malmsteen is the greatest guitarist alive for doing Paganini's Caprice...well, technically that may be true...technically. But if I dislike Malmsteen, I don't care if he plays it with his balls; if I don't like his rendition of it or what he's done with it, that's that.
Liverslapper
w00t
Liverslapper
w00t
EricT
Don't you ever get...
What artist isn't ripping off someone else though? That's all music is... "Hey, I heard this Robert Johnson delta blues album, lets do something like that except with some reverb", said Tony Iommi to Geezer Butler.
Dead Winter
STAHP
I checked it out Steve and it's good for what it is. However, for me personally, that piece has been ruined by mixing it in such a way. It sounds like a mockery of something very elegant, pure, and powerful.
Is it done well? Definitely. But to me it disgraces its predecessor.
Dead Winter
STAHP
Yeah ok, at some point everyone borrows something from someone else in music. There is no original idea. But taking an influence and making it your own and taking the exact piece and trying to make it your own are two completely different things.
If they weren't different, then we wouldn't have copyright laws and you would be able to sample entire songs instead of 16(?) bars of a song without permission.
EricT
Don't you ever get...
Dead Winter
STAHP
If that's the case then none of us guitarists can ever play the E minor chord ever again because of Metallica. People who steal from other artists are hacks, plain and simple. Sometimes there are similarities and sometimes those similarities are purely coincidental. Sometimes artists write a song as a tribute to someone else...even Nile did it on Annihilation of the Wicked. There's a passage that is the exact same chord progression as "Renegade" by Styx; Karl Sanders put it in there as a subtle tribute to a band who influenced him a lot.
But in no way, shape, or form is Nile ripping anything off of Styx.
But in no way, shape, or form is Nile ripping anything off of Styx.
EricT
Don't you ever get...
There's a difference between playing a chord and doing what Led Zeppelin did. Led Zeppelin took pre-determined songs of classic blues artists and recorded them as original. To this day only few have been able to get the credit they deserve (pretty much Willie Dixon)... all the while saying "oh, we didn't mean to do that". Playing an E Minor chord is an E Minor Chord. Unless you play it the exact same way Metallica did and call it an original recording.
Music goes full cycle. Listen to some 40's 50's blues sometime, you'd be amazed how much of it you'll "recognize".
Music goes full cycle. Listen to some 40's 50's blues sometime, you'd be amazed how much of it you'll "recognize".
EricT
Don't you ever get...
Seriously though, listen to Willy Dixon's I Am The Blues... you'll recognize the album instantly.
Shpongled
Member
- Aug 30, 2001
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Stop thinking that me calling you on your bullshit is only me being "oversensitive." I think you're wasting too much time typing and it's forcing you to miss the point that I was set off by the fact you called him a hack without even ever hearing his music. You based that opinion off of something someone else said about him. Unfortunately, you're entitled to that so have at it.I've never seen anyone get so upset over the fact that someone doesn't like the same music as you do, and I even like electronic music
And if you'll notice, I said "bands of any merit" don't play covers in front of 25,000 people. I'm not saying one or two songs, I'm saying complete shows of ripping off other people's material. The fact is, whether you like it or not and as talented as they may be, most DJs don't write their own music and they just sample other people's stuff...that's the basis of electronic music, mostly. It's the nature of the beast and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but my problem is that they aren't creating anything new, just making it shinier. If I put Master of Puppets into Reason 4.0 and completely change it around and remix it, should I be commended for it? No. Maybe for my Reason 4.0 user prowess, but that's about as far as it goes. When you borrow from other people's work to create your own with a computer program, you're an engineer, not a musician. You told me it's my perogative to dislike someone because of that, and then you fucking flame me for it. Which is it, Kevin? Make up your mind. Am I allowed to dislike something based on my own opinion or am I full of shit because of it?
And by the way, guys in cover bands aren't pretending to be something they aren't. Guys in tribute bands, however, are.
Dude, I never said anything about their sole purpose being their wanting to become famous. YOU show ME where I said that. I have a problem with people becoming famous off of the hard work of other artists, which as I said, is rampant in any form of music where sampling is involved. It's the nature of the beast, but I don't have to like it.
You need to realize that your taste in music isn't the be-all end-all and that other people don't have to like what you like. In fact, they can say that only faggots and assholes listen to your music but that doesn't mean they're full of shit, only misinformed. That's called having an opinion, and that's something you're going to have to get over and stop being so oversensitive about.
I'm not upset that you don't like Tiesto, I couldn't give a tiny fuck about that. Again, just so I'm absolutely clear, I'm upset (if you could really even call it that, which I will for lack of a better term) because you called him a hack before even hearing everything in question. You just jumped to a default opinion that you've obviously already had set up just because you hated the idea that Tiesto did what we're talking about (remixed a song you think very highly of).
As far the whole "famous" thing, it's a stretch but I guess I have to give it to you, you didn't technically say the word "famous". But to me and probably everyone else on the face of the earth that's ever listened to a song before, phrases like "accessible to the mainstream" or "very strong following" pretty much imply at least a shred of the word "famous" and the act of getting there, especially in the context you used it in. I apologize for completely misinterpreting you there
My musical tastes were never in question or even a topic of conversation here, aside from "Tiesto rules" and "this Sasha remix is awesome". Thanks for bringing that up and trying to use it as a weapon against me though! We can argue about that too, if you want. The fact that I like Tiesto and similar music was and is beside the point and not a topic in this discussion at all until YOU brought it up. I was arguing that you ignorantly called a decent, honest musician a "hack" when you were apparently having personal issues with me.
Also, after reading that mammoth post of yours again before hitting "submit" here, I realized that I think you're even missing the point that nobody ever even fucking claimed Tiesto was a "musician" as per your definition of the word. You just decided to throw that out there and start arguing about it. You might be talking about his remixes, but I mentioned long before this argument ever got off the ground that most of his music is original. You chose to ignore that so you could argue about his remixes more because you're offended he did them or something. I don't fucking know.
Methinks YOU are the one who needs to get over themselves.
Dead Winter
STAHP
Wow, I'm gonna check that out, Eric! That's really interesting. If this is true, then Zep were hacks as well. They were also rock gods, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they stole from other people. I'll call it like I see it, no matter who it is.
Back then, however, music was a much more pure and innocent virgin than it is today. Led Zeppelin were shrewd businessmen as well. Today no one would get away with that shit.
Did you hear about Satch suing Coldplay for one of his chord progressions he thinks they stole? It's definitely the same progression, but it sounds more like a coincidence and maybe a nod to him rather than a ripoff.
Det Som Engang Var
Viking Bastard
In rap, borrowing of ideas such as hooks from another songs chorus or just using the beat is perfectly acceptable. In this regard, "my pals" sure are more logical than these stuck up worthless guitarist. Anyone can play rhythm guitar anyway, it's fucking easy. And any guitarist songwriter should know he's going to end up making something that sounds like a song he likes one way or another.
EricT
Don't you ever get...
"my pals" used to be some of the best musicians. They can thank slavery for that.
Now-a-days? They've lost their roots.
Shpongled
Member
- Aug 30, 2001
- 13,483
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Yeah, that's another thing... I don't think DW fully understands the fact that sampling and remixing is commonplace for this style of music. Most of these DJs are totally stoked when another DJ samples their work, and if a certain DJ isn't stoked, no one will sample his stuff. As someone said in another thread recently, "imitation is the highest form of flattery" and that's the attitude these particular musicians have. Simple as that.
i can understand having issues with remixing someone else's original song, and that's fine... but there is NO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE in that than there is in a rock band covering another rock band's music. It's the same exact concept, different kind of execution. And no combination of words or justification from any person ever in the world will make me believe otherwise. You can argue money and fame and what not play a factor, but until it's proven directly to me otherwise, I side with the logic that the song is being covered or remixed by the person because they truly like it and want to add their own touch to it, not cash in on it.
Tiesto was famous long before the Adagio with Strings remix.
i can understand having issues with remixing someone else's original song, and that's fine... but there is NO DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE in that than there is in a rock band covering another rock band's music. It's the same exact concept, different kind of execution. And no combination of words or justification from any person ever in the world will make me believe otherwise. You can argue money and fame and what not play a factor, but until it's proven directly to me otherwise, I side with the logic that the song is being covered or remixed by the person because they truly like it and want to add their own touch to it, not cash in on it.
Tiesto was famous long before the Adagio with Strings remix.
