Question about God.

But if he can choose to control it or not control it at anytime, he still ultimately has control, no?

From the original post "if he is capable of controlling everything"

If one is "capable" of controlling something do they necessarily have control over it? The answer is no.

Maybe one has control, but what does it truly mean to have control over something, does one always realize the extent of their control over things, does this control only exist in the present or for an infinite period of time, it is increasing or decreasing?, is this being "God" in control of itself, does this being have a "self" or is it composed of multiple beings, each with it's own will, which may pose a conflict in itself, rendering any potential external controls uncontrollable?
 
If one is "capable" of controlling something do they necessarily have control over it? The answer is no.

If God is simply abstaining control through choice he still ultimately has control, for he can reassert it at any the time.

Though perhaps his word choice wasn't stellar, I think the TC was trying to question if it was possible for God to create something that he can not truly control (i.e. he has no choice in the matter) since he is omnipotent, omniscient, etc.

The paradox this creates was dealt with well by BMWG in the second post with the burrito analogy, tbh. To clarify, no he cannot create something he cannot control for this would contradict the basic characteristics of god as all seeing, all knowing and all powerful.
 
Obviously we don't have the same concept of God.
You are talking about Jesus Christ, and I meant GOD not a prophet. I mean, "The Father of Jesus" in your a beliefs (in case you are Christian)

Jesus is God according to Christian doctrine. The trinity--the father, Jesus Christ and the holy spirit are all one and the same.
 
That depends on the Church and their interpretation. Some Christian Churchs in fact I believe most believe they are three seperate beings.

Jesus was Gods "only begotten son". You'd have spend hours sitting and talking to religious people to get alot of interpretations sorted out. That is something I have avoided like the plague for decades
 
From wiki:

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.[1] The doctrine states that God is the Triune God, existing as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases,[2] but one being.[3] Each of the persons is understood as having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures. Since the beginning of the third century[4] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[5] Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Methodism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as "the central dogma of Christian theology".

Anyways, I never said I was a Christian, I was just clarifying what Christians believe--Jesus is God. So the miracles he performs in the bible defy the laws of nature and are the work of God as Jesus is part of the Trinity, which is a single being.
 
Im Protestant/Methodist (raised) and never heard anything about any trinity, sounds real Catholic, I was no scholar though.
 
Im Protestant/Methodist (raised) and never heard anything about any trinity, sounds real Catholic, I was no scholar though.

Protestant/Methodists are Trinitarians.
Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox are all Trinitarian. It's groups like Mormons; Jehovah's Witnesses, et al that are non-Trinitarian and viewed as heterdox.
 
Yesterday my friends and I were having a theology discussion, and there was a friend who's an atheist asked us this question(which he couldn't answer himself) so i would like to look for an answer among you my friends, here is the question:
If God is almighty and capable of doing and controlling everything, is he able to create a world that he cannot control?
I hope i could explain the point clearly.

This question is extremely difficult and I've never seen the problem of omnipotence spelled out in this way, but I'll take a crack at it. No attempt to answer this question will be fruitful unless some clarificatory work is done first, so that's what I'll try to do (though my jargon-laden rambling may cause some to think my remarks are more obfuscatory than clarificatory.)

The question itself is ambiguous as far as I can tell. We should distinguish between two ways of interpreting this question. On the one hand, the question might be asking if there is a logically possible world which, just in virtue of the way it itself is constituted, is something that God cannot control and if God could create such a world. On the other hand, we could interpret the question as asking whether God could create a world and relinquish his ability to control it even though there is nothing about the way such a world is constituted which puts it beyond God's control.

I don't think it makes much sense to answer in the affirmative to the first interpretation. It seems to me that it would be a genuine logical impossibility. God (assuming he/she/it is omnipotent) could not bring a world into being which is by its very nature not under his control because there simply is no such logically possible world. I suppose that the paradox does not arise on this first interpretation though my thinking here is a little fuzzy. It seems to me that to admit to such an impossibility is just to acknowledge God's omnipotence anyway and that to infer the contradictory is to get confused by mere words. Again, my thinking here is a bit fuzzy.

If we were to answer in the affirmative to the second interpretation of the question, we would have to admit that there are logically possible worlds which God cannot control but not because of how such worlds are constituted. We would have to say that such worlds are out of God's control because he, by his own volition, relinquished his control. This is where it gets problematic. If God relinquishes his control, then there is something that God cannot do which is at least putatively logically possible, namely controlling certain logically possible worlds. Does this undermine God's omnipotence? It's not clear to me one way or the other. On the other hand, is God's omnipotence undermined if he cannot relinquish his control over a world? I don't have an answer but intuitively it seems like it would be easier to reconcile God's ability to relinquish his control over a world with his supposed omnipotence. This is in need of a lot more analysis. I think I'll pursue that in a future post.

Lastly, I've found that a good way to deal with this sort of question is to explicitly spell out what premises and inferences are involved. We can formulate the paradox in the form of the following argument.

P1: If God is omnipotent, then God can do everything.
P2: Either God can create a world he cannot control or God cannot create a world he cannot control.
P3: If God can create a world he cannot control, then there is something God cannot do.
P4: If God cannot create a world he cannot control, then there is something God cannot do.
P5: If there is something God cannot do, then it is not the case that God can do everything.
__________________________________
C1: There is something God cannot do (via P2, P3, and P4)
C2: It is not the case that God can do everything (via P5 and C1)
C3: It is not the case that God is omnipotent (via P1, C2, and modus tollens)

I suppose that a good way to resolve the paradox is to find something wrong with the above argument. One way is to attack P1. I think the concept of omnipotence needs to be analyzed rigorously and we need to decide what is supposed to be meant by 'everything' in P1. That is, we need to determine the scope of that particular quantifier. I have no idea if that would help at all. These are just some of my inchoate, disorganized thoughts on the matter. More to come later.
 
I think the potentially non-temporal nature of omnipotence is probably the main sticking point here.

I own a car. I have 'full control' over it in some vague legal sense, but this 'full control' is easily relinquished if I choose to do so.

The deity of your choice is omnipotent. As such, they have 'full control' over their omnipotence, and could surely render themselves no longer omnipotent... however, would they have been deserving of the omnipotent label in the first place if they were not 'permanently' omnipotent? Either way, it seems that it is either entirely plausible (if the omnipotent label is temporally relative) or a labeling error on the part of anyone discussing the issue - only beings omnipotent for all time and space deserve the label, and we were mistaken to apply it. Such a state would mean that the 'omnipotent' label applied to anything would be only a hypothesis, not some 'real' state. Some other, temporally-relative omnipotent term may be useful...
 
Just because a thread has 'god' in the title doesn't mean it's a thread to post whatever random opinions about religion you like - respond to the initial question or something in the thread or it will be deleted, assuming I hang around for longer than a day ;) I moved all the discussion I'm referring to to a new thread.
 
OP
If God is almighty and capable of doing and controlling everything, is he able to create a world that he cannot control?

I'm bringing this point that was moved with the rest of the garbage back because it IS relevent.

First, hopefully everyone would agree that man controls the world. Not the weather and the tides nor the core and large flying objects from points unknown, but our life, how we live and essentially "our world" is controled by mankind.

The bible seems to be based on God giving man free will, choices and consequence as well as all kinds of tests of faith. So if the question is in ponderance of why God does not intervene with the madness and chaos of mankind, this is the religious scenerio.

Now if you go to acts of nature like earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanos and storms I would suggest the idea that every rose has its thorn. Should this God actually have created this environment its going to come with some drawbacks. To question why some magic hand does not appear to plug the hole in the earths crust or to break and smooth out some storm pattern would be explained again as a test of faith and Godly intervention in one place would create another problem elsewhere.... like maybe drought

I suppose the greatest lesson to man, regardless of a God or individual efforts is that NOTHING is perfect and will never be. Any glimpses of perfection are but fleeting moments of euphoric bliss, soon to be shattered by reality.

Thus Man created God to explain all things beyond his control or which he makes a mess of through his efforts of control
 
If so, how the scientific references in the Qur'an could be written by humans who didn't have the technology and the knowledge to write such things at that time. :S

I dont know of these things Hex, but might be able to figure them out if I had the necessary information.
 
OP


I'm bringing this point that was moved with the rest of the garbage back because it IS relevent.

First, hopefully everyone would agree that man controls the world. Not the weather and the tides nor the core and large flying objects from points unknown, but our life, how we live and essentially "our world" is controled by mankind.

The bible seems to be based on God giving man free will, choices and consequence as well as all kinds of tests of faith. So if the question is in ponderance of why God does not intervene with the madness and chaos of mankind, this is the religious scenerio.

The question has nothing to do with reasons or explanations for any choices / interventions. It's a question of logic and definitions. Where in the initial question is it asked why some god does not intervene?
 
The question has nothing to do with reasons or explanations for any choices / interventions. It's a question of logic and definitions. Where in the initial question is it asked why some god does not intervene?

"If God is almighty and capable of doing and controlling everything, is he able to create a world that he cannot control?"

Why would an Atheist ask this question ? Did I read too much into it ?

If God created this world, why cant or doesnt he control the weather, geothermal conditions and people themselves ?

Why ask a question if it cant be answered on face value reality ?

I'd say without a doubt... YES. If God created this world, the only world we know, only a fool would expect him capable of controling all the bullshit and other natural forces that go on.

Logic and definitions covered
 
Go read Qur'an just for the sake of knowledge if you want to and i would be glad to hear your explanations.

I made it half way through Genesis and couldnt take anymore. I'm not curious enough about scientific predictions in the Quran to read the entire thing. I thought you might elaborate.
{probably needs to be in the other thread, so those of great ponderance of logic and definitions are not frustrated... lol}