Racism And Metal

[anonymousnick2001]

I don't know how eugenics got into the discussion.

Someone mentioned that healthy societies are places where morals come into play in the wake of determinism. Unfortuantely, I don't think humans will ever reach this "healthy society."

So in the context of modern-day society, with morals and whys and hows and what-ifs, we cannot accept full determinism. There will always be an exception. There will always be a situation where the formula of X genes plus Y experiences resulting in a "Huh?" because life happens to be that way. Genetics and experience have a gigantic role. But they are not the be-all end-all.

Partial determinism gives a frame that we can control our destiny and eventual outcome in. Full determinism does not. In a non-utopian(?) society, where situations are judged individually, genetics and experiences cannot be held responsible for a person's actions. They have some degree of "free will."

 

[lord667]

I don't know how eugenics got into the discussion.

Apparently, that's what happens if any kind of determinism appears in government.

So in the context of modern-day society, with morals and whys and hows and what-ifs, we cannot accept full determinism. There will always be an exception. There will always be a situation where the formula of X genes plus Y experiences resulting in a "Huh?" because life happens to be that way. Genetics and experience have a gigantic role. But they are not the be-all end-all.

I'm not convinced that's true. Beyond the quasi-uniqueness of genetics, don't forget that your Y term is functionally infinite in length, since there's no limit to how much a human can experience in any given time-frame, and everything that the human sees, thinks, hears about or senses in any way counts as an experience; reading a philosophy book, getting in a fight, catching a disease, taking a driving test, trying the fish special...even glancing at the clock or picking his nose would count. On top of that, the order and time of experiences matters. I'd suggest that a person's "experience fingerprint" is more unique than their DNA fingerprint, and no simpler.

(Consider this: Two people are asked to think of a random number. They are then asked to write down a random sequence of that many squiggles. With no limits on the length and no set lexis to draw their symbols from, what is the probability that they write down the same symbols? Not zero, because there is a chance - but infinitesimal. Infinity to one against. And that's how I picture the experience fingerprint.)

To then put the two together ...let's just say that it would take a HELL of a lot of "Huh?" for me to even begin to be convinced by the "but what about the anomalies?" counter-argument.

Partial determinism gives a frame that we can control our destiny and eventual outcome in. Full determinism does not. In a non-utopian(?) society, where situations are judged individually, genetics and experiences cannot be held responsible for a person's actions. They have some degree of "free will."

Well, yes, if you feel that free will HAS to exist, then full determinism is obviously not acceptable, since they're mutually exclusive.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Good thread.

 

[Vibeke]

interesting thread...

 

[no country for old wainds]

Profanity's found some friends!

 

[SoulSlaughter]

I know this is a Controversial Issue, but somehow i have noticed most of the ppl who listen to Metal are Caucasians and When a person of other race claims to listen to Metal, that person is usually never taken seriously, I remember, In one of the Metal Chat Rooms , An African American Girl was chatting , ppl were making fun of her , i really got pissed and blasted them back....,I was listening to this song War by Sepultura, In that song the line Color of the Skin is as insignificant as the color of the eye (something like that) which comes in the background inspired me to post this thread. So Do u ppl feel that Skin color as a significant factor to listen to metal ?. I have been in to Metal for nearly 8-9 years, and i enjoy the music, but i am an Indian (usually called as Browns), I seriously feel a person's Skin Color is insignificant to listen to a Particular Genre of Music (Metal in this case)

I hope atleast this Thread doesnt go offbeat like the other threads like Satanism and Metal and Are You Christian and listen to Black Metal....

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any my pals, dothead, kyke, spick, gypsy faggot who calls me a white boy gets their ass beaten. i have a 9 mm. that i'm just dying to use. blow a hole in their head and take the head to communicate to Satan and get more orders from His Evil Majesty. Death Metal is for white people, however, if a another race forms a satanic dm band like krisiun then by all means, play, but pay tribute to satanism, gore and violence, and of course white people who created Satan's theme music.

All praise Lucifer and hold your sword up high in the shadows of His Glory. Pray for and carry out His biddings to destroy this world so it may be recreated in His vision.

Evil is made of eternity of shadows. few of those shadows like hatred for example, can be felt by mortals. Imagine how much more powerful the other shadows are that would surely kill us if we experienced them before entering in to His kingdom.

The Aryan race was chosen by Satan much like the jews were chosen by christ who was born out of mary's dirty ass. god fucked her up the ass because it was the cleanest out of all the whores in bethlehem. god does indeed work in mysterious, perverse ways.

 

[Vibeke]

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any my pals, dothead, kyke, spick, gypsy faggot who calls me a white boy gets their ass beaten. i have a 9 mm. that i'm just dying to use. blow a hole in their head and take the head to communicate to Satan and get more orders from His Evil Majesty. Death Metal is for white people, however, if a another race forms a satanic dm band like krisiun then by all means, play, but pay tribute to satanism, gore and violence, and of course white people who created Satan's theme music.

All praise Lucifer and hold your sword up high in the shadows of His Glory. Pray for and carry out His biddings to destroy this world so it may be recreated in His vision.

Evil is made of eternity of shadows. few of those shadows like hatred for example, can be felt by mortals. Imagine how much more powerful the other shadows are that would surely kill us if we experienced them before entering in to His kingdom.

The Aryan race was chosen by Satan much like the jews were chosen by christ who was born out of mary's dirty ass. god fucked her up the ass because it was the cleanest out of all the whores in bethlehem. god does indeed work in mysterious, perverse ways.

you're kidding...right...?

 

[speed]

Ok Lord 667, I finally got a chance to do a little research on your pre-determinism, and the recent studies of the brain. This research is based on what ive read from a number of doctors and researchers. From how i understood it, predeterminism is somwhat important, it allows many people to be much more likely to have certain nervous/psychological conditions, eating conditions etc. However, the experts have stated that environment and experience can and do overcome predeterminism. Studies have shown people brought up in excellent environments, and those who lead lives with lower stress levels etc, never trigger these predetermined factors. Plus they have shown that even psychotherapy has a profound effect on the brain- they are able to take x-rays and compare activity centers after therapy, and they are much diferent- drugs have the same results.

One thing I have noticed is all the experts are intrigued by the idea of the Self, and how it comes about etc. They havent figured it all out from what i read. They have also noticed the profoundly ngative effect stress has on the brain and the body.

So, I think your free will argument is going too far, apprently a few years ago there was a question of whether free will is possible- as in times of danger the body reacts before the brain can process a thought of what to do. Yet apperently this is process is one of are most primal instincts of survival- and the brain is working telling the body to be fightened or strong etc.

Ill do some more reading on it, but from what ive read ones own choices and actions and environment have alot to do with overcoming predeterminism.

 

[no country for old wainds]

But everything is pre-determined, because your genetics and experience are responsible for the way you react to every miniscule little event. Your experience is made up of the way you've reacted to every single event (because of your genetics and experience). This is why, as I said before, the way you react to the first thing that ever happens to you depends entirely on genetics. The way you react to the second thing depends on your genetics AND on that first experience. And it's an ongoing process through life, until you die.

I know I worded that badly, but it'll do for now.

 

[R.I.P.2]

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any my pals, dothead, kyke, spick, gypsy faggot who calls me a white boy gets their ass beaten. i have a 9 mm. that i'm just dying to use. blow a hole in their head and take the head to communicate to Satan and get more orders from His Evil Majesty. Death Metal is for white people, however, if a another race forms a satanic dm band like krisiun then by all means, play, but pay tribute to satanism, gore and violence, and of course white people who created Satan's theme music.

All praise Lucifer and hold your sword up high in the shadows of His Glory. Pray for and carry out His biddings to destroy this world so it may be recreated in His vision.

Evil is made of eternity of shadows. few of those shadows like hatred for example, can be felt by mortals. Imagine how much more powerful the other shadows are that would surely kill us if we experienced them before entering in to His kingdom.

The Aryan race was chosen by Satan much like the jews were chosen by christ who was born out of mary's dirty ass. god fucked her up the ass because it was the cleanest out of all the whores in bethlehem. god does indeed work in mysterious, perverse ways.

 

[speed]

Gaurdian I swear the people ive read dont understnad the full extent of pre-determinism, and if anything they have found predeterminism can much more easily be overcome. You must remember predeterminism has little to do with the self- this is the problem you and lord 667 seem to be making.

 

[lord667]

Ok Lord 667, I finally got a chance to do a little research on your pre-determinism, and the recent studies of the brain. This research is based on what ive read from a number of doctors and researchers. From how i understood it, predeterminism is somwhat important, it allows many people to be much more likely to have certain nervous/psychological conditions, eating conditions etc. However, the experts have stated that environment and experience can and do overcome predeterminism. Studies have shown people brought up in excellent environments, and those who lead lives with lower stress levels etc, never trigger these predetermined factors. Plus they have shown that even psychotherapy has a profound effect on the brain- they are able to take x-rays and compare activity centers after therapy, and they are much diferent- drugs have the same results.

That's what I've been saying. Environment and experience are part of determinism, and experience may even the most important part. Psychotherapy is an experience, a life with low stress is an experience, and so on.

Anyway, let us know what you dig up.

Edit: "determinism" for "predeterminism". Predeterminism seems to me to place too much emphasis on genetics and biology.

 

[lord667]

Gaurdian I swear the people ive read dont understnad the full extent of pre-determinism, and if anything they have found predeterminism can much more easily be overcome. You must remember predeterminism has little to do with the self- this is the problem you and lord 667 seem to be making.

Your research indicates that genetics can be overcome, not determinism itself. I've already said that genetics are only one factor, and perhaps not the most important.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Yes. What he said.

You're confusing 'pre-determinism' with genetics alone.

 

[speed]

[size=+0]The term 'determinism' is also variously used. It is mainly used by many philosophers for accounts of our human choices and actions that make them into effects of causal sequences -- sequences of such a kind as to raise a question about the freedom of the choices and actions. Determinism so understood has a limited subject-matter -- ourselves and our lives, and indeed less than that. It is not the scientific and general or cosmic doctrine associated with Newtonian physics in the past. Certainly the term 'determinism' can be differently used for the general doctrine, as it typically is in the Philosophy of Science.[/size]

[size=+0]Note too that determinism in our limited sense, whatever its consequences, is not in itself a claim or doctrine about freedom. It is not the claim that we are not free. Nor does it uncontroversially entail that. Many determinists suppose or say we are perfectly free.[/size]


Many people disagree with very concept of Determinism- which is largely a mid 18th century philosophical concept. Pre Determinism seems to be based like you said on genetics.

I think this is where we are having a disagreement- you are obviosusly of some Neo-Kantian school of Philosophy- and I am more of a existentialist- neoliberal ( Hayek etc.) Science hasnt supported either of our positions.

 

[speed]

Version of the Argument for Epistemic Determinism Premise 1 -It must be that (if x knows that you are going to do [some action] A, then you will do A).Premise 2 -But if you must do A, then you have no choice in the matter.Thus -If x knows (beforehand) that you are going to do A, then you will do A.

Causal Determinism

Argument #1 - There is No Moral Responsibility Premise 1 -Every action is either caused or uncaused (i.e. a random occurrence).Premise 2 -If an action is caused (recall Darrow), then that action was not chosen freely and the person who performed that action is not morally responsible for what he/she has done.Premise 3 -If an action is uncaused (i.e. is a random occurrence), then the person who performed that action is not morally responsible for what he/she has done.Thus -We are not morally responsible for what we do

Causal Determinism is a Necessary Condition
for Moral Responsibility Premise 1 -Unless there are extenuating circumstances, persons are (to be) held morally responsible for their actions.Premise 2 -Being unable reasonably to have foreseen the consequences of their actions is one such extenuating circumstance. (Recall that young children who cannot reasonably foresee the consequences of their actions are not to be held morally responsible for the consequences.) Premise 3 -In order to be able to anticipate or foresee the likely (or even the remotely likely) consequences of one's actions, the world must not be random, i.e. the world must be fairly regular (or causally determined).Thus -Moral responsibility requires that there be causal determinism

 

[SADUDE]

Ok, I would agree if I someone would provide me with the research that proves your genetics determine how you react to your initial pivotal experience. Given the similarity of our first experiences, it would take a unique sequence of these events before and if genetics played a role. Development in the womb leaves few options. We are being this nitpicky right?

 

[no country for old wainds]

Obviously, by 'first experience', we're including experiences in the womb.

 

[SoulSlaughter]

The only true forms of metal are thrash, black (to a lesser extent), and of course, the greatest and most violent; death metal (includes viking metal i.e. amon amarth). of course no one can deny classic metal like iron maiden.

all you nu-metal fans are are the most ignorant out of any music fan. alternative and rap fans aren't far off.

int, say what you really mean you worthless poser of metal.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Bill Oddie has a great beard, doesn't he!

Being completely irrelevant is fun.