Racism And Metal

[speed]

I'd like to thank Lord 667, Sadude, Guardian, Nick2001, for actually making this an interesting thought provoking discussion. I actually had to read up and learn something on a metal board, and its really amazing that we have something thats no completely pointless to talk about.

 

[lord667]

Bill Oddie has a great beard, doesn't he!

Being completely irrelevant is fun.

I'm more of a Brian Blessed man myself. No point in doing things by halves

 

[lord667]

I'd like to thank Lord 667, Sadude, Guardian, Nick2001, for actually making this an interesting thought provoking discussion. I actually had to read up and learn something on a metal board, and its really amazing that we have something thats no completely pointless to talk about.

UM really is quite remarkable. There aren't that many places where a discussion can spin through from racism to determinism, still have five or six people involved, and not have degenerated into a slagfest.

 

[SADUDE]

Obviously, by 'first experience', we're including experiences in the womb.

Great job. It is easy being a pre-pubescant 15 year old know it all jackass. WHere is your research. Your womb experiences for the most part would be very similar to others. Mostly eating and etc. These would depend upon the experiences of the mother probably more. So you are essentially saying that genetics coupled with the nature of the first experience and then the response to it would make a person. So you are reducing things to a specific formula essentially. Like one of many formulas for a serial killer could be: the first meal being say lobster? If he had chicken instead would columbine never had happened? There are limited options of how a baby can react to its initial events. It thrives on instinct and probably cant make a choice(even a pre-determined one) until it is like what 2 maybe? The age is really irrelevant. These things are so miniscule you would need to look at them in a sequence I feel. Every experience is of infinite characteristics that can not be perceived. I doubt you could even pinpoint the first experience anyways, nevermind its details in entirety. I just cant see any sort of research to indicate the truth of this. It all makes sense after this. I almost believe this. This sounds like destiny and fate. Are we reinstating Greek mythology as authority?

 

[SADUDE]

When you really consider these infinite factors you have to admit none of us have any fucking clue what we are talking about. Free will is bound to the same fate as all other philosophical arguments. It can never be determined. You will talk yourselves in circles ad infinitum. Looking for answers is pragmatic but we can not ever find them. An answer is just the breaking point where an individual's ignorance takes over. The important thing i feel is to use questions to get more questions. How anyone can truely convinced of any truth void of ignorance is beyond me.

 

[no country for old wainds]

Great job. It is easy being a pre-pubescant 15 year old know it all jackass. WHere is your research. Your womb experiences for the most part would be very similar to others. Mostly eating and etc. These would depend upon the experiences of the mother probably more. So you are essentially saying that genetics coupled with the nature of the first experience and then the response to it would make a person. So you are reducing things to a specific formula essentially. Like one of many formulas for a serial killer could be: the first meal being say lobster? If he had chicken instead would columbine never had happened? There are limited options of how a baby can react to its initial events. It thrives on instinct and probably cant make a choice(even a pre-determined one) until it is like what 2 maybe? The age is really irrelevant. These things are so miniscule you would need to look at them in a sequence I feel. Every experience is of infinite characteristics that can not be perceived. I doubt you could even pinpoint the first experience anyways, nevermind its details in entirety. I just cant see any sort of research to indicate the truth of this. It all makes sense after this. I almost believe this. This sounds like destiny and fate. Are we reinstating Greek mythology as authority?

It's funny how everyone calls me an unpleasant elitist, yet I'm ALWAYS civil to people on the board until they flame me for saying something they can't comprehend.

On to your points: I'm technically saying that the BIG BANG made each person how they are, that is when the 'whole' was created. Everything from them is just a chain of events, however large or tiny, which evolved over time into the world we have now.

You're correct, lots of things are miniscule and have barely any effect on anything, but they're still all part of the 'whole'. I didn't say it could be pinpointed, and I didn't say anything about 'destiny' or 'fate'. Nothing is mapped out in the stars, nobody is controlling this, and the fact that it's pre-determined isn't even important, except in relevance to this conversation.

You're perfectly correct that there are limited options to a new-born baby's reactions at first. They cry, they whinge, but if you put them all in the same situation they'd all do something 'slightly' different. Because their genetics are all 'slightly' different. And considering that every child grows up treated differently, in a different environment, it's no surprise that everyone is different. To be the same as someone else, because you would have to not only have that person's exact genes, but you'd have to do exactly the same that they did, every second of every day, at the same time and the same place, with the same environment, with ALL elements of the world being exactly the same as they were when the other person experienced them. Anyone who thinks this is possible is a retard.

I'm not sure why you need research. It just seems obvious to me. You suggest the existance of randomness, when there's nothing to back it up. Just because humans don't have a grasp on why something has happened, doesn't mean it was random. Regardless of this, there are plenty of books which put it far clearer than I am able to.

 

[SADUDE]

It's funny how everyone calls me an unpleasant elitist, yet I'm ALWAYS civil to people on the board until they flame me for saying something they can't comprehend.

On to your points: I'm technically saying that the BIG BANG made each person how they are, that is when the 'whole' was created. Everything from them is just a chain of events, however large or tiny, which evolved over time into the world we have now.

You're correct, lots of things are miniscule and have barely any effect on anything, but they're still all part of the 'whole'. I didn't say it could be pinpointed, and I didn't say anything about 'destiny' or 'fate'. Nothing is mapped out in the stars, nobody is controlling this, and the fact that it's pre-determined isn't even important, except in relevance to this conversation.

You're perfectly correct that there are limited options to a new-born baby's reactions at first. They cry, they whinge, but if you put them all in the same situation they'd all do something 'slightly' different. Because their genetics are all 'slightly' different. And considering that every child grows up treated differently, in a different environment, it's no surprise that everyone is different. To be the same as someone else, because you would have to not only have that person's exact genes, but you'd have to do exactly the same that they did, every second of every day, at the same time and the same place, with the same environment, with ALL elements of the world being exactly the same as they were when the other person experienced them. Anyone who thinks this is possible is a retard.

I'm not sure why you need research. It just seems obvious to me. You suggest the existance of randomness, when there's nothing to back it up. Just because humans don't have a grasp on why something has happened, doesn't mean it was random. Regardless of this, there are plenty of books which put it far clearer than I am able to.

Ok my flame was maybe unnecessary. I am not one of the others on here that is unwilling to accept the theory because it is undesirable. I see how it really wouldn't matter either way. Im probably more to your side on this. It just isn't solid yet. If we could make sense of one person's involvement in this theory then it would hold true for everyone and everything back to the beginning or "big bang." I don't want to go into that but I am not sure what is more ludicrous...the idea that something came from nothing or that everything might have always been.

 

[no country for old wainds]

It's a difficult concept to grasp, I agree. It's difficult to actually provide clear, substantial proof. It is, however, possible to put it more simply than I have, so that maybe it would make more sense to those who don't quite understand. Indeed, it doesn't really matter anyway, it is interesting though.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

GoD, I've never called you an unpleasant elitist.

And to echo speed, this is one of those awesome threads where topics have switched and the same group of people have maintained a civil and thought-provoking discussion.

Bravo for us.




Back to the original topic.

Although there is no "scientific proof" of determinism, we can't help but feel as if things happen that are out of our control.

Is determinism limited to only humans, or all living things, or even events?

Is there maybe a parallel between determinism and the ever-popular fate?

 

[no country for old wainds]

GoD, I've never called you an unpleasant elitist.

I bet you've thought about it though.

Although there is no "scientific proof" of determinism, we can't help but feel as if things happen that are out of our control.

Indeed, because we aren't really 'in control'. There is a lot humans don't understand. Just because the knowledge that 'determinism' exists is there, doesn't necessarily mean that any of us can predict it, control it or make use of it.

Is determinism limited to only humans, or all living things, or even events?

Nothing happens by itself. It is always a reaction to something else, without exception. Determinism applies to everything. What I call the 'whole'.

Is there maybe a parallel between determinism and the ever-popular fate

Fate suggests that somebody else is in control of all happenings, or that they can be predicted simply by viewing the stars (or via other such silly superstitions), so I think not.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Well, you were one of my first regular discussion people back in September and October. You were a little less...focused in your musical tastes back then. I can see how some might get the impression you're becoming an elitist. You've occasionally gotten that dry, objective "tone." But you're no Demiurge. You can still joke. You can get off your high horse. You probably have functional gonads. You're no elitist. Not by the generally interpreted definition, anyway.

I've never believed in fate. I don't even think God controls EVERYTHING. Just a lot of it.

 

[selfabuse]

Just to add my 2 very unqualified cents... I would consider myself as very very liberal and not a racist but obviously race plays a big part in how we are as individuals as Demiurge has been saying. Maybe you could argue that race and peoples cultural inheritance leads to some sort of superiority or inferiority but realistically, we are all such a bunch of mongrels that any kind of definitions would be really blurry and therefore unworkable. I think that to some extent you could assume people to live up to their racial steriotypes and laws of average would mean that if you judged people on race or any other grouping, your judegments of people would be nearer correct than false but so what. People are individuals and if you're gonna generalise people into big groups due to race, country, sex, sexuality, religious beliefs or whatever, you might as well take that to the extreme and work out the average statistics of the whole planet and generalise everyone in existence down to one person and assume that everyone is the same when obivously they arent. If you wanna get the best out of life I think you have to adopt a policy of keeping steriotypes in mind but judging everyone on an individual level and that's why I think racism is stupid. And you can theorise about culture as much as you want but you cant prove any of it and you only get to live from 1 persons perspective so you cant possibly make a reasonable judgement on the mental state of the whole of humanity, so why bother. I think that while culture obviously shapes how we approach life, just the difference between one generation and the next in terms of how they see the world is usually pretty huge. A lot of people nowdays especially go out of their way to embrace a different way of life to their parents and cultural boundaries are thankfully getting pretty blurred.

On a slightly realted note, I'm a white english male so I guess I cant really try and understand how it would be to be in an ethnic minority, but I am gay and I for one always think it's hillarious when I see things in the press talking about how something has effected "the gay community". Where the fuck is this community cause I sure as hell dont live their! My sexuality obviously effects how I percieve the world but doesnt define it and I'd be pissed if someone judged me just on that so I cant contemplate doing the same with others just because of their race.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

I agree. You know nothing about being an ethnic minority. But by being gay, I can only assume you've at least felt like the butt end of society at some point(no pun intended). I hope no one misjudges you based on something as private and ultimately trivial as sexual orientation.

I think that racism has no place in metal. But neither does intolerance of any kind. Priest fans that stopped listening to them when they found out Rob was gay should be given some serious oogabooga torture.

 

[SADUDE]

none of this has any place in metal It is completely unrelated. Everyone has their preference. Gay people liking each other. Me not liking them or most minorities. It is preference which includes the absence of objectivity(like anything really). Some people don't like a certyain kind of color or food. Some people don't like types of people.