slate drums always getting buried

[Machinated]

I haven't spent enough time with the samples to make a proper judgement yet, but one thing I have noticed is I can get a sample to fit into my mixes quicker out of my pre existing sample collections than I can with the Slate ones so far. I was kind of expecting to be able to drop some of these samples straight into my mixes without EQ-ing much.

I have a few kick and snare samples that very quickly get me in the direction I'm trying to go (e.g. some samples where I don't want them in 100%, I just want to get some of the high end or attack of it - when I have loaded the Slate samples I have thought "OK once I have sorted this out I could be going somewhere".

I don't mean for this to appear negative, the samples are really well engineered and sound really great by themselves! I'm basically trying to find out how I can get these samples to work best for me.

The mixes above sound good, although the Scott Reinwand clip was the only one that made me think "thats what I want". I'm more talking about their practicality - when I'm augmenting drums I'm looking to get something out of the drums that wasn't in the mic'ed tracks. With these I seem to be solving one problem with the drums, but I'm still missing something else.

My only ways of testing so far have been to try out the samples on older mixes I have from old projects. In the next couple of days I could try and upload some mp3's of mixes I have done with my own sample's in the mix, and then with the Slate samples.

FWIW here are some links to a couple of mixes I have done - I'm not saying these are my ideal drums, ideally I'd like to achieve better sounds through the Slate samples

Also Ermin I can appreciate that side of the argument, but I shouldn't have to always change my guitars for example to make the snare drum fit - I already have other samples that I can use that alleviate me of that kind of issue. I can see that you can't just load any sample thats well recorded in and expect the mix to work - it has to fit, but I guess I'm still just looking for that bit extra

 

[Ermz]

To be honest my experiences with the samples have been the complete polar opposite of yours. Most of the time I find it 'too easy' to get a good drum sound with them, and it almost feels like cheating when I'm replacing original tracks. They've led me to experiment more with those samples that I don't necessarily like out of the box and try to craft something good from them with blending and whatnot. There are a few in the pack that work almost too well with anything rock/metal and could lead one down the path of the darkside (ie. same drum sound each release).

It should be noted though that I don't sequence drums. I use these as augmentation tools to blend into original tracks, and I usually have my own methods of processing, which lately have come to involve a subtle bit of parallel compression. I also never replace toms if I can have it my way.

 

[Machinated]

To be honest my experiences with the samples have been the complete polar opposite of yours. Most of the time I find it 'too easy' to get a good drum sound with them, and it almost feels like cheating when I'm replacing original tracks. They've led me to experiment more with those samples that I don't necessarily like out of the box and try to craft something good from them with blending and whatnot. There are a few in the pack that work almost too well with anything rock/metal and could lead one down the path of the darkside (ie. same drum sound each release).

It should be noted though that I don't sequence drums. I use these as augmentation tools to blend into original tracks, and I usually have my own methods of processing, which lately have come to involve a subtle bit of parallel compression. I also never replace toms if I can have it my way.

I'm also using them to replace/augment. Of course drum sounds are subjective and our methods of using the samples will be completely different to each others, but I'd be curious to see how everyone is using them. I admire your work Ermin and appreciate your input. That said Lasse and Joey are echoed similar sentiments to what I think and are both people working on some pretty big releases also.

I think peoples varying experiences are down to the fact that there is a huge scope of variance in terms of how to use these samples.

Are you using Z3's and blending room to taste? or just going straight in with the Z1's? Are you EQing the samples much to adapt to the mix? or are you going through and trying different samples? Which samples do you find that you could use "in every mix?

As an example, Andy's snare sample that he gave out a while back seems to sit into almost any mix (although I barely ever use this sample). I have found that Slate samples take more work to get them to sit into the mix as well.

 

[Slate]

I would experiment more Machinated. I think your mixes sound good. I bet with more time and checking out more snares etc. from the collection you'll find a system that works for you. Don't be afraid to eq the samps, for metal some snares like a bit more top and some kicks like less lows etc.

I WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND USING EQ BEFORE COMPRESSING THEM MORE... this goes out to everyone.. leave some point and transient, compressing them too much takes this away..

Ermin, for using more then one samp, I just use two instances of drumagog, then I'll print the tracks and align anything that isn't spot on. I always have seperate instances of Drumagog for the loud hits and another for the detail hits btw.

I will say that its very rare I hear about this issue, honestly I usually hear the opposite happening.. ie "your samples stick out of the mix too much"..

Either way, depending on the mix, mix tempo, and instrumentation, its all possible. I try to offer a lot of variety so that SOMETHING works.

Here are my recommendations for metal:

Cracky Snares:
Green
Panty
Tonedef
2
3
5
5A
7
9A
Chili
19

Fat Snares:
4
6
8
11
11A
NeverSnare
12A
14
ACSnare

Kicks:
Panty for click
Kick 5 (mess with low end as per tempo)
Kick 15 (mess with low end as per tempo)
DreamKick
TommyKick
Black Kick (if you want that sound)

and don't be afraid to mix a whole bunch of the above!

Throw up the faders, eq if needed, and print it.

here are those mp3s again:
http://homepage.mac.com/markmusic/.Music/facemeetfist.mp3 (Mark Moore)
http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/demo2/DreamKit2.mp3 (Mark Moore)
http://www.vitaetmusica.com/outgoing/WhereIAmOct9.mp3 (Scott Reinwand)
http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/demo2/marchdef.mp3 (March Hare)
http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/demo2/Ecco_RedTide.mp3

and hell, here is one of my own mixes from a few years back, its a big wav file so you'll need to download it and play it:
www.yellowmatterrecords.com/slate/LoatheMasterMS.wav

also guys, check out P.O.D.'s latest "When Angels and Serpents Dance".. by Jay Baumgardner.. some killer drum tones using my samps as augments

I'd love to hear more mixes as its quite easy to diagnose issues this way.

 

[Ermz]

@Steven: Thanks! So you run each instance of drumagog on separate tracks then? I've been using them in serial (when blending), but having separate ones for quieter and harder hits has worked out great in the past.

@Machinated: I completely understand that they may not work for you in the same way that they work for me. I was mainly just trying to outline that I don't think it's necessary an issue with the samples themselves. As with Steven, the main thing I hear about them is that they pop out too much and are almost over-compressed for some projects. I think it really depends on how a person tends to craft their mixes. For my approach the samples work fantastically and always poke through.

I hope that over time you'll find your own use for them, and perhaps your mixes will transform to suit their inclusion.

The last project I did using the Slate samples I'd say has almost too much pop, which you can hear over here: http://www.box.net/shared/noiama2zmg

It may not be the best example, as the recorded drums were far from fantastic, but it kind of gives you an idea of how much they can cut through.

 

[Slate]

few more things:

Ermin that mix sounds RIPPIN. I would say the drums sit really nice, I wouldn't touch that mix, its done. Which samps are they?

Next, here is a great tip. After doing your mix tweaking... BUSS all your stuff to a few master busses.

BUSS 1: Guitars
BUSS 2: Bass
BUSS 3: Lead Vox
BUSS 4: Back vox
BUSS 5: Drum L/R (overheads, cymbals, rooms)
BUSS 6: Snare
BUSS 7: Kick
BUSS 8: Anything else

Now you have an easy 8 faders to quickly adjust levels. This will make it easy if you find that the guitars or other rhythm instruments are burying the drums.. Simply shove those faders down and leave the snare and kick faders.

Don't be afraid with an in the box mix if your drum faders are WAY higher then the guitars etc. Use your ears. When I mix in the box I always get shocked how much higher I have to have my drum faders sit...

thats all for now, I'll start posting more mixes soon, I encourage you all to do the same.

 

[akarawd]

Moonlapse... that sounds AMAZING. Love the sound and the track... excellent work man.


Regards,
akarawd

 

[joeymusicguy]

Hi guys. There are about a zillion mp3s on the net with my samples out there and I have to be honest, from what I've heard, its very rare I hear the samps buried, in fact, quite the opposite. Many of those fantastic mp3s were on this forum actually. If the samps aren't cutting, I'd:

-try another sample

i usually go through the entire list on any given project/song and find what is best or go with what me and the drummer have picked out

-for kicks, as it says right in the manual, adjust your low end

check!

-turn the drums UP!!

so loud its peaking and clipping, check

-spike some more upper mids on the snare

play with eq until the day you ship it out, check

-adjust your other instruments dynamically in the mix

yes

-i'll say it again, watch the sub lows on the kicks, the faster the song, the more sub to knock off

yep, anything from a c4 killing the lows at the right threshold, or eq adjustment, or a linear phase parametric eq adjustment to the sample

The Metallica kick is intended to do one thing: sound spot on to the layered kick from Metallica's black album. That it does to my ears. If you are going for that sound, its certainly not useless. However, I like to mix that kick with other kicks to get hybrid sounds, in fact I rarely use just one kick sample on anything these days.

this is probably something i need to experiment with, i just get drowned with options and mixtures. band usually gets bored/frustrated and wants "the first one"

I'd be happy to help anyone out who is having any issues with my samples.. all you have to do is post an mp3.

thats really appreciate. i honestly think its me not being used to using them in my mixing style / mastering chain

Here are a few metal and hard rock mixes I just found on the net that certainly don't sound buried:

http://homepage.mac.com/markmusic/.Music/facemeetfist.mp3 (Mark Moore)
http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/demo2/DreamKit2.mp3 (Mark Moore)
http://www.vitaetmusica.com/outgoing/WhereIAmOct9.mp3 (Scott Reinwand)
http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/demo2/marchdef.mp3 (March Hare)
http://www.stevenslatedrums.com/demo2/Ecco_RedTide.mp3

well none of my stuff ENDS UP being buried. im saying it takes a lot of work to make it not that way.

So now that we've hopefully taken the blame off the samps, lets get some mixes posted and help each other out.

i love the samples, sometimes i feel they need a little extra which is totally understandable. but if you take like, snare 12a and play it next to the devil driver snare, at the same volumes, the devil driver snare KILLS it. and thats without peaking/clipping.

EDIT: Joey I just realized you say after your mastering chain and you included the word LIMITER. If you are using a limiter with a threshold then NO drums will cut after you make the mix louder. Please search for my name and the word GCLIP in this forum to see how to better get mixes louder in the digital world without screwing with transients. Having said that, from the stuff on your myspace page it seems like things are sounding good.

thanks, and you're right. everyone's told me to try it, and i really need to! i've always had a good end product so i've never felt the rush to go grab it, but im startin to see the reason to grab it! thanks for all your words steven, and dont get me wrong i love your samples!!!

 

[Ermz]

I think the issues cited could be due to a lack of midrange content in the snares. I know that I always have to crank the absolute hell out of the snare fader to get it to cut through a mastering chain. That way when the transient diminishes, you're left with the body of the sound cutting through. That's the one thing I've cosnistently felt missing in most of the snare sounds. I combat this by using the natural rooms, OHs and the Z4 samples as heavy parts of the direct snare sound, because all of those have midrange content that will pop right out after it's hammered in mastering.

@Steven: Thanks, it's always flattering to get praise from your end. Unfortunately I've moved from Nuendo 3 to Cubase 4 (more of a trial, really) and I can't recall the session at the moment. I know that the snare was one of my favourite fat ones, so it was likely one from 10 to 15. Maybe 12Z1? I might be wrong. The kick would be in a similar number range, because I always use the elite mixer series sounds over the the originals.

@akarawd: Thank you very much. It's nice to hear that on a mix I considered a huge salvage project. Another testament to the power of the Slate samples, I suppose.

 

[Machinated]

I tend to have busses like this when I mix:

Kick
Snare
Toms
OH
Room
Drums
Bass
Guitars
Lead Guitars
Clean Guitars
Vocals
BV's

and then my reverbs, delays etc after

I do it like this like Steven said, because its easy to find things and change them. Ill set my tracks that are feeding the busses to be proportional to each other (e.g. the snare top compared to snare bottom compared to the sample track).

I'll definitely agree that the samples are very scooped in the mids - that said I'll compensate in similar ways; by getting some room mic in there, through the use of reverb.

Its really a case of getting these samples working in my workflow, I'm sure I'll nail it

 

[Slate]

Lets talk about the mids thing... First off, good news. In 2.5, some of the snares got a little tweaking and have much more aggressive mids, like snare15 has a really in your face midrange, so does Snare12A. Few others that I though would be good for metal got some more mid smack. For metal, snares need a lot more mids then snares suited for rock. When I mix a metal track, I'll usually put the two snare samples to one fader and sometimes I'll crank some 2k, bout 3-6db. My point is, even though my samples have preprocesing, I still recommend eqing them to taste for a given track. They eq VERY easily, that was part of the concept from the start. I don't recommend compressing them all that much if at all.

Don't get me wrong, there will be many times, especially on less aggressive material where you might not need any processing at all... none of the demos that I made at www.stevenslatedrums.com have ANY eq on them... but I don't have any blast metal on the site. But when it needs it, do it. The good news is that unlike other completely unprocessed samples, it won't need drastic measures that take half a day to complete.

Which DevilDriver snare are you talking about Joey? Is this a sample thats been posted? If so, I'd love to hear it, and then I can maybe give you guys some DevilDriver snare eq presets for my stuff.

Cool stuff, I appreciate the feedback guys.

 

[Machinated]

Steven - thanks for all the responses, it really justifies paying for something when you know the creator wants to do the best for you.

Looking forward to the 2.5 samples!

 

[Pedro Teixeira]

I was considering seriously in buying this, but since I've been seeing that Slave himself wants the best for their customers and gives a lot of feedback I will definitely buy them

 

[jangoux]

Well, I never got Slate samples to work alone - they work better for me to augment something. Either to get more low end, or to get more crack, or higher pitch or something. My 'problem' with it, is that sometimes it sounds too hi-fi, but i am getting used to it. The Led snare is my favorite so far to augment anything Some of the other 'signature' samples doesn't work too well for me, tho'. Since i am new to those samples, i may need to experiment more, as i don't know yet too well how to use the room samples (never really figured the Z2, Z3 and Z4 things, and the Slate documentation is at the studio I work on).

Ivan

 

[Jaymz]

Which DevilDriver snare are you talking about Joey? Is this a sample thats been posted? If so, I'd love to hear it, and then I can maybe give you guys some DevilDriver snare eq presets for my stuff.

.

Its the clip I posted on your forum section about the DD snare drum sound. Cut from Clouds of California.

 

[abyssofdreams]

Its the clip I posted on your forum section about the DD snare drum sound. Cut from Clouds of California.

Judging from that megaupload-file I'd say there's some post-EQ and some extra compression going on. The character of the verb reminds me of one of the URS CSP presets...

Hold on, I'll check that and post a clip with some processing back in this thread once I figured it out. My ears might fuck with me though

 

[abyssofdreams]

Here's a try, quick and dirty though:

http://www.megaupload.com/de/?d=0Y5MLFQS

I think the character is similar to it, at least on my normal stereo loudspeakers, guess with double-checking on decent monitors, a diff. reverb, maybe a hybrid snare out of multiple samples, back and forth mix-checking in context, and some other EQ you're almost there

I like the result though.

 

[Jaymz]

Here's a try, quick and dirty though:

http://www.megaupload.com/de/?d=0Y5MLFQS

I think the character is similar to it, at least on my normal stereo loudspeakers, guess with double-checking on decent monitors, a diff. reverb, maybe a hybrid snare out of multiple samples, back and forth mix-checking in context, and some other EQ you're almost there

I like the result though.

Nice try dude, verb sounds good, what you use?

I think the original must be a blend of a few fatties, its pretty scooped but it pop's like fuck.

Extra compression? Any guide-lines as to what kind of settings?

 

[abyssofdreams]

yupp, I agree, pretty scooped snare he did there. I was trying to scoop just the verb, around 1-2k mainly.
Compression was the URS strip I mentioned earlier with the "Snare deep" preset just on the Z1 track though. Z4 blended in to taste.
Maybe some SSL comp on the 2bus in a full mix could make it pop a lil bit better...

I'm curious about the 2.5 SSD update, maybe we can get closer with these....

 

[abyssofdreams]

oh and the snare was Snare12, the one less open sounding of the two.