SX and Paradise Lost = Satanic ??

[Statler Waldorf]

The problem with this argument, although I do agree with what you're trying to get at, is that it does not work to translate a dolphin biology to explain human evolution. Species evolve differently, and showing a current species for comparison just illustrates genetic diversity. You don't really present a previous human state.

That said, I think the massive problem with the intelligent design argument (I just read Darwin's Black Box, it was sitting on the shelf in my girlfriend's apartment- interesting biology, worst philosophy/argument ever) is that although it does a great job debunking Darwinian evolution, it erroneously assumes that because Darwinian evolution is false, intelligent design is true. There is no consideration for other, more likely forms of evolution. It debunks a theory that's already centuries out of date. Darwin was a smart guy and set the groundwork, but biochemists have come a long way since then.

Like I said before, (and now here's my opinion) I'm a Christian who also believes evolution is true.

Darwin's Black Box was one of the first publications in the movement, you should definitely read newer material. Quoting it as evidence that ID is a flawed theory would be no different than me thinking Evolution is flawed because Darwin's understanding of cells was incorrect in "The Origin of Species". Dembski's "The Design Revolution" is a better book in my opinion.

 

[Statler Waldorf]

I have been curious about this for a long time, so I guess this would be directed to Ken or anyone else who is religious and opposes or accepts evolution.

Why do you think there is such a vehement hatred/denial of evolution in the religious community? Especially here in America. Do many feel that when you except it, you automatically become an Atheist and loose your morality or something? The evidence in support of evolution is really overwhelming, but it seems that that doesn't matter to many. Is there deeper reasoning behind this?

Well first off I believe there is just as much blind faith demonstrated by people who do not believe in God who accept evolution without understanding it but rather just because it supposedly weakens the accounts in the Bible of creation. For me as a Christian, I just don't feel that evolution passes the BS test. It's such a large theory trying to explain so much that it has a lot of weak links. I personally believe in a young Earth (6000 years) that was created in six literal 24 hour days. I believe that the major Familes of organisms were created. Through the last 6000 years these families through natural selection were diversified giving us the over 30 million species we find today. However I do not believe evolution creating new families of organisms is possible due to many of the concepts developed by the ID movement. I also believe that the scientific community today is very corrupt and no longer functions without biast and with the pursuit of knowledge in mind. An example of this would be the peer reviewal system we have now. In order for theories and experiments to obtain scientific credibilty they must be reviewed by their creator's peers. This is the way it's always been in modern science which is a good thing. However a problem arises when all the peers share the same preconceived dispositions as the theory's creator. I have wittnessed this when dealing with the scientific community's view of ID scientists. A person often says that many of them (ID Scientists) lack credibiltiy because they have not been published in a peer reviewed journal, however many of these journals will not allow their work to appear in the journal because they think it lacks credibility; a very good case of circular reasoning.

Scientist 1 "Can my work appear in your journal?"
Scientist 2 "Nope because it's not credible work"
Scientist 1 "Why do you think it's not credible work?"
Scientist 2 "Because it's never appeared in my journal before"


This argument is also flawed becaue a lot of these scientists do have their work published in peer reviewed technical journals, just not the journals the Darwinists' approve of because they contradict their theories. I can guarantee that if someone completely disproved Darwinian Evolution tomorrow it still would not appear in any of the major scientific journals because this would indicate that all these scientists believe in an invalid theory and wasted millions of dollars, and nobody likes it when they are proven wrong. The whole system is a complete mess and needs serious revision in my opinion. Science should return back to the pursuit of valid knowledge and understanding.

 

[Statler Waldorf]

Hey Noble Savage, just a clearification, I looked it up and it was not Dembski on the stand in the Dover trial, it was Dr. Michael Behe.

 

[Swabs]

I personally believe in a young Earth (6000 years) that was created in six literal 24 hour days.

Sorry but to me you've just lost all credibility.

 

[Statler Waldorf]

Sorry but to me you've just lost all credibility.

It's ok man, I don't need any credibility with anyone who obviously has no understanding of Polystrate Fossilization, Soft Sediment Deformation, Soft Tissue Fossilization, Electro-magnetic field movements, and biproducts of Uranium decay atmospheric accumulation.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Do you believe in the speed of light? If so, your theory is shot to hell
The observable universe, and more importantly light from stars on the other side of it, require much more than 6000 years to reach our earth. If it was all made at once, you've got a problem.


I don't believe in young earth. I believe in carbon dating. I have no problem with evolution positing that we are descended from primates either. Keep in mind I'm also a Christian . Thanks for the book recommendation though. Darwin's Black Box is horribly flawed argumentatively. It jumps to conclusions frequently, makes generalizations, hypocritic ignoring of detail, and equivocates often. It's a philosopher's junk box. It's not the data that's not up to date- it's the presentation and logic.

I do, by the way, have knowledge of electromagnetic fields. It was my undergraduate major.

 

[razoredge]

yeehaw.......... ride 'em cowboy

someone that ponders the possibility of life somewhere else in the vastness of the universe becomes a childish moron thinking ET will soon walk through his door, yet the fierce opponent whose primary focus is his credibility and everyones lack there of believes this whole damn thing is but 6000 years old

fear not my children it will all become apparent..... someday

 

[razoredge]

I don't need to impress the cork-sniffing douchebags who use pseudo-intellectual babble to make themselves feel superior.

you have just risin another 10 points on my scale of the brotherhood, because reading this was as good as a fresh dose from Hall of the Mountain King.........

 

[Wander]

Someone actually believing that Earth was made 6000 years ago is the most unbelievable thing I have heard this year. I think that you, Waldorf may very well know a lot more about certain things than I do, but I also think that your view of the world is wrong. How do you explain dinosaurs and all the proof of ancient creatures? And as Ken already asked, do you believe in speed of light?

I just can't take you seriously anymore. Believing in God and evolution makes sense to me, but that just doesn't.

 

[noble savage]

Hey Noble Savage, just a clearification, I looked it up and it was not Dembski on the stand in the Dover trial, it was Dr. Michael Behe.

I should have gave a warning that I mix those two up more than I get them right!

Statler, I don't know what to say. I have never actually, knowingly at least, had a conversation with someone who believed the Earth is 6000 years old. I feel now that any other attempt for me or anyone else to use scientific clarification would be pointless..

It seems you actually DO believe science is a vast conspiracy and anyone who disagrees with it can tweak it to their satisfaction or ignore it all together.

And for dramatic effect.

 

[DoomsdayZach]

yeah, i suddenly have a very vast understanding of what's going on here. Conversation is definitely over for me.

How do you explain dinosaurs and all the proof of ancient creatures?

I don't understand their belief system very well, but from what i do understand, they believe that the earth was created by God who put all that shit there from the beginning. So basically it's like a gigantic deceptive easter egg hunt.

 

[Swabs]

This argument is also flawed becaue a lot of these scientists do have their work published in peer reviewed technical journals, just not the journals the Darwinists' approve of because they contradict their theories. I can guarantee that if someone completely disproved Darwinian Evolution tomorrow it still would not appear in any of the major scientific journals because this would indicate that all these scientists believe in an invalid theory and wasted millions of dollars, and nobody likes it when they are proven wrong. The whole system is a complete mess and needs serious revision in my opinion. Science should return back to the pursuit of valid knowledge and understanding.

And I bet if somebody completley disproved the existance of God and everything in the bible tommorow it still would not be acknowledged by religious society.

Your argument works both ways you delusional, arrogant, fool.

 

[noble savage]

And I believe Young Earth Creationists explain all of the geological formations by Noas flood (Grand Canyon, Rocky Mountains etc etc.) Although that begs the question, why then are Dinosaur fossils found in completely different sediment layers than all other fossils? That's some smart ass water!

 

[Swabs]

And I believe Young Earth Creationists explain all of the geological formations by Noas flood (Grand Canyon, Rocky Mountains etc etc.) Although that begs the question, why then are Dinosaur fossils found in completely different sediment layers than all other fossils? That's some smart ass water!

You're forgetting something... The Dinosaurs never existed! :O

Anyway, so we measure our years from the supposed year of the birth of christ right? So thats 2008 years of existance since Jesus Christ was born. Well the Sumerian civilization existed around 5300BC, so 2008 years after Christ + 5300 years before christ = 7308 years since the time of the Sumerians to Present day...

And you can't deny the existance of the Sumerians.

 

[noble savage]

You're forgetting something... The Dinosaurs never existed! :O

Oh right, my mistake.

Although, I think that argument has been abandoned. Now 6000 years ago, T-rex existed, but he ate coconuts.

http://www.scientificblogging.com/fish_feet/t_rex_ate_coconuts

 

[Swabs]

Oh wow, I didn't realise their theories could be that insane.

I edited my above post btw.

 

[noble savage]

Oh wow, I didn't realise their theories could be that insane.

I edited my above post btw.

Yeah, I saw that. YEC claim that the Earth can be as old 10,000 so the Sumerians DID exist.

Not only do I find the arguments presented by YEC appalling, I'm also kind of disturbed how common it is.

There are at least 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars found in at least 125,000,000,000 galaxies in the universe. I can't even wrap my mind around this when I try. This is a big reason why I find the notion of a supernatural creator unconvincing (One that cares about us anyway.) The idea that all of this was created for us, a species not even out of tribalism, doesn't settle with me one bit. I have a hard time believing we are something special in ALL of that vastness. I want to help discover that facts behind our universe. I have already decided to dedicate my life to it. Whatever lies at the heart of evidence people gather I can't say, but I will wager it has nothing to do with anything on this planet.

 

[DoomsdayZach]

As far as a creator goes, I can see a distinct possibility that there was a "creator" to get the universe started, but as far as someone who's watching over us? Not entirely convinced in that.

 

[Horus]

To me, the universe seems like a big science project that got boring. Once God stopped talking to Prophets, it was probably like he just got bored of it and went to go look at porn or something. That's why the world sucks. Because God doesn't care anymore.

 

[DoomsdayZach]

To me, the universe seems like a big science project that got boring. Once God stopped talking to Prophets, it was probably like he just got bored of it and went to go look at porn or something. That's why the world sucks. Because God doesn't care anymore.

As juvenile as that is, i think you're pretty close