the dynamite politics thread

Arch said:
I was watching Distorted Morality, in which Noam Chomsky said everyone (including you and I) is to be blamed for terrorism, not just Al Qaida, bin Laden, or any other extremist.

I think it was in that one where he also said what I quoted, it's
very good anyway, I have a whole lot of his stuff.

@wildfyr
Alien Nordic Dude: But the universe?
*mocking the Nordic dude's accent*: "Screw the Universe!"
:lol:

And yes, I agree, Noam or Arch for president... I somehow think Noam would
have a better chance tho ;)
 
VultureCulture said:
just before going to bed (so i can read lots of interesting posts tomorrow), i'd direct the discussion towards recent events in israel/palestine. opinions, please.
*looks at the 5 posts after this..*
VC, you suck at directing discussion :p


My two cents on the Middle-eastern conflict..

I have always thought that it's utterly ridiculous how prolonged this has turned out to be. Both sides are extremely stubborn. I, of course, don't agree with the violence from either side; but I have always had this opinion which may seem a bit one-sided, and especially now with the current developments:

Israel has always had an arrogant attitude. And I know where it comes from. Ever since the U.S. actively and blatantly supported them, supplying them with abundant equipment and technology for them to fight off the Palestinians, whose land they started to take (or 'reclaim') like it was no big deal a long time ago. Of course the Palestinians are going to be ever-resentful.
Actions and policies like the one the U.S. has sustained is what encourage 'terrorism' in great part, especially from Arabic cultures. Of course their fundamental beliefs, when it involves violence is not in any way an honorable cause for terrorism to begin with, but a lot of it has been greatly amplified and brought on by a feedback loop of political and military bullshit by the hands of the Western world.

This is emphasized now that Israel has assassinated a very respected spiritual and social leader.. (a man in a wheelchair.. with a fucking missile). Do they intend to bring about an end or a decisive turning point to the dispute this way?! They just brought on hell onto themselves, and will have to face the consequences now that they've seriously aggravated the conflict. The man wasn't even that violent towards Israel.. he was just a unifying figure for many separate sects of Palestinians and Arabs. His replacement(s) will be a lot more wrathful, resentful, and willing.
I mean.. the man didn't even condone going into/beyond the Israeli borders. Now you can bet your ass the Palestinians will send all out attacks into Israel.

I'll also point out that Bush himself refused to condemn the assasination of this man. Implicitly supporting it, perhaps. This just further amplifies the resentful tension and, in my opinion, is pretty hypocritical and typical of the U.S.

Like it was stated by someone.. this was another "reckless provocative act" by the proud Israelis.

Anyways, like I said, my view in general isn't as one-sided as it may seem..
I don't agree with many of the views, actions, and/or fundamental ideas of many of the violent and passionate Islamic leaders.
..but I feel I must argue these points.
 
VultureCulture said:
just before going to bed (so i can read lots of interesting posts tomorrow), i'd direct the discussion towards recent events in israel/palestine. opinions, please.
I do not have the time for this, but with just a few lines:

I think the Americans should have attacked Israel instead of Iraq. It would have:
1. been more justified
2. caused less innocent lives
3. reduced terrorism all over the world
4. made the world a much more safer place for all mankind (instead of the much more dangerous place it turned out to be)

The state of Israel should not exist and every sionist should be killed.

-Villain
 
But doesn't just declaring another type of genocide just further exacerbate the problem? Do that, and Jews everywhere will start a terrorism campaign in return. Besides...isn't this slightly amoral?
 
urm well. i don't agree, of course. jews or israelis in particular are of course no worse than any other religion or state. so basically eradicating any kind of species/ethnic group/religious group etc is quite hilarious. you are talking of a fucking genocide!

on the other hand, i really despise people who fight to the blood over religious beliefs and have no problem with them killing each other IN GENERAL. but since it always includes innocent people as well, this is not to be tolerated either. maybe we should invent a death match tournament or something where all these idiots claiming to fight for a better cause/a jihad/what-have-you can chop their heads off. since this is morally offending, this is a no-go as well.

so, the only solution left is talking it out, EDUCATING people that religion in itself is a farce they've decided to fall for because their community said so. the world would be a safer place without religions, this is what i believe. it doesn't matter wheter they be arabs, christians, bhuddists or whatever, and i also admit that some religions tend to be more agressive and less tolerant, but as long as there are different points of pointlessness, it will go on and on.

@ villain in particular, you somehow managed to destroy the good opinion i had on you with a single post. this can't be your true, honest opinion? i know you like heated debate on topics like these, and i know your stance towards the usa, but hey, this would be a very bad post if it was meant sarcastic, and somehow i feel that it isn't meant that way. you accuse other people of ignorance towards history, well, where did you leave your knowledge about ww2?
 
Villain said:
I do not have the time for this, but with just a few lines:

I think the Americans should have attacked Israel instead of Iraq. It would have:
1. been more justified
2. caused less innocent lives
3. reduced terrorism all over the world
4. made the world a much more safer place for all mankind (instead of the much more dangerous place it turned out to be)

-Villain

"Interesting post." I actually think I agree with you. Except for this:


Villain said:
The state of Israel should not exist and every sionist should be killed.
The problem isn't the state of Isreal itself, right? Isn't the problem that Palestinians (or all non-Jewish citizens?) are considered second class citizens because the Jews are afraid of becoming a minority in their 'own' country?
Concerning Zionists - well, I would certainly like to see a nazi free world, but that will probably not happen. But if I was to go out and start killing nazis, I would become a as big moron as the nazis themselves. There will always be people with opinions that others wish didn't exist, but we just have to cope with them.
 
I know I shouldn't have put my nose here while I do not have the time to argue my points all the way through, but as my admittedly hastely-written statement got such intelligent (truly, no pun intended) replies, I feel obliged to respond. I accuse you of preventing me from ever finishing with my gradu. ;)

VC: It seems we have a different understanding of the meaning of the term "sionist", which may be of my own fault (as I'm not sure, if I use it correctly). When I use it, I (falsely?) mean only the extreme fundamentalist minority within the jew community that insanely demands that the borders of Israel cannot be questioned and the war of terror against all Palestinians must be continued, despite the horrible costs in both arab and jewish lives. You seemed to take my comment as if I meant sionist = jew. Sorry, if I used the term incorrectly and confused you. Apart from that, I see where you disagree with me and respect your belief in humanity. I seem to be losing that very belief, once so strong in me, every time I read the news concerning the Near-East situation. I would say you are not the only one, whose respect I have lost in this regard, lately.

Why then, do I not feel similar hatred against the leaders of the jihad, you might ask? Don't take me wrong, I'm not crying for Yassin or any of his kind of religious leaders. I just cry for those thousands of young Palestinians, whose entire generations are taught to hate and kill, as they see no other way out of their situation. Killing someone, who has never experienced life, is pointless. These men and women are the future leaders of the Palestinians, people who will cause hundreds and thousands of unnecessary deaths - but they do not ever see any other options, and that's why I do not hate them as much. The sionists, on the other hand, have the education, the resources and the possibilites - yet they choose to continue this war, and that's why I hate them as much I do.

Child of Time said:
The problem isn't the state of Isreal itself, right? Isn't the problem that Palestinians (or all non-Jewish citizens?) are considered second class citizens because the Jews are afraid of becoming a minority in their 'own' country? Concerning Zionists - well, I would certainly like to see a nazi free world, but that will probably not happen. But if I was to go out and start killing nazis, I would become a as big moron as the nazis themselves. There will always be people with opinions that others wish didn't exist, but we just have to cope with them.
Well put. I hope more people in power were like you - not prone to hatred, like myself. That is my weakness. I cannot see a future, in which there is peace in middle east and state of Israel exists (see more below).

Fireangel: Excellent, insightful post, with some great ideas I had never heard (or thought about) before! Really put my poor rant above in shame. :worship:

Still, though, the cynical pessimist in me simply can not believe your plan would work, not with the people in power right now, not with the harmful religous attitudes so polarized at the moment (thanks to Bush & co.) and not with the lack of will and power within the UN (again, partially thanks to Bush & co.). I wish I could believe in it, but I simply can not.

-Villain (sorry, I truly don't have more time to this, would love to argue this, heated or calm, with you wise people)
 
I just need to add this in order to avoid any misunderstandings:

VultureCulture said:
so, the only solution left is talking it out, EDUCATING people that religion in itself is a farce they've decided to fall for because their community said so. the world would be a safer place without religions, this is what i believe. it doesn't matter wheter they be arabs, christians, bhuddists or whatever, and i also admit that some religions tend to be more agressive and less tolerant, but as long as there are different points of pointlessness, it will go on and on.
Here I, of course, agree with you 100%. Our disagreement lies in the other areas of our posts above.

-Villain
 
fireangel said:
sheik Yassin was not a mild old man. Him sitting in a wheelchair or not has nothing to do with the whole case IMHO.
"Spiritual" leaders are one of the most dangerous issues in this conflict, because after all, the motivation for many warriors and terrorists is their belief and convictions.
You've missed my main point. I was saying that, taking into account the perspective of the palestinians, killing a spiritual leader to them and one who happened to be in a wheelchair will of course cause an even more bitter and angry response from them.
It doesn't matter what kind of man Yassin was objectively (to someone who's not a Palestinian).
My whole argument was that the Israelis brought hell onto themselves by doing this.
The fact that he was a spiritual and unifying leader makes the Palestinian response 'understandable' given their rationale. This has nothing to do with whether or not you or I (with our 3rd person perspective) agree with said response.
 
Villain: kiitos, kiitos.
I forgot to add btw, that in these 10 years, they need to negotiate of course over the natural resources/water-issue aswell. But it can be solved.

About the plan in general: Well. All the other plans before haven´t worked, either because they were too shortsighted or spoiled by politicians needing some publicity and stuff like that. I´d say, why not try that one. =)
The only one which was close to start working was the one negotiated in norway (?) (sorry, I lost track with dates and stuff, that´s just too many) because that had the condition involving no press, no public and coming out very late. And of course had some wise negotiation leaders from the nordic countries who had no personal interests in that.

Like I just read today in a newspaper: "Self-centered arab leaders". This goes for israeli of course aswell, but I believe many of those terrorist leaders are in there only for fame and power, and not because they want to solve their people´s problems :/

PS: it´s "zionist" :)


EDIT:
Mag: yes, of course it was not wise by israeli to do this. but my point is anyhow, that this "liquidation" of important persons is just a tiny part in the puzzle. Actually it´s totally meaningless in the whole process which is going on for 50 years now. Next week will be new headlines. That´s what I mean. No-one can win, and so they have this silly chitchat (I kill you - we make a suicide commando - we will take revenge.. blablabla....) going on all the time.


EDIT 2: Villain, you can´t have heard of this ever before. I made it up all by myself, not taken from any books. Only the tourism-stuff is a quite old idea. Though of course people can have thought the same already.
 
alright, this is in swedish, but it's prolly available in other languages/medias: http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,456380,00.html

now, that if anything makes me feel like the FUCKIN stupid IRAQI bastards should have been left with their beloved Saddam. Is that what arabs are like? killing and mutilating innocent civillians, just for the sake of working for America? way to feed the flames! :puke:
 
Ack, the end is coming and we are all going to hell in a handbasket.
I hereby resign my position in the human race, see ya later.... if you
don't all blow yourselves up before then.
 
today i woke up to the radionews which stated that ashcroft blamed the clinton administration for 9/11... it's always good to start the day laughing
 
Yes, it's very sad that both are pointing the finger at the other, when it's
quite clear that they are both as guilty, as is the past administrations all
the way to the 2nd WW... of course they would never admit it, but then
the government never seems to say anything straight anyway.
 
Arch said:
I was watching Distorted Morality, in which Noam Chomsky said everyone (including you and I) is to be blamed for terrorism, not just Al Qaida, bin Laden, or any other extremist.
What irrational nonsense! Since when did all humans become a global collective, equally guilty of all crimes committed against ourselves. It's an absurd negation of individual thought and volition. Such beliefs, as presented by the oh-so-erudite Mr. Chomsky, are truly more dangerous to us than any terrorist in the world. To cede one's individuality is to cede one's desire to live.
I understand that my response regards a quote out of context; so, if my understanding is incorrect, please instruct me.