the dynamite politics thread

[Northern Lights]

Well spoken Ben, you have now answered my previous question And I definitely agree - isn't life just full of things that prove that too much or too little of something is bad? Lagom is best This applies to everything, obviously government as well. Therefore, it does not only need an equal representation of men and women, but also a fairly equal representation of the various political opinions - only right-wing conservatism isn't good, and neither is the ultra communist state...

 

[Dark_Jester]

Exactly. The ancient greeks probably had it right with the pure democracy, made up of equal numbers, female members, and enforced voting. Then they could get an accurate idea of what people really felt, and move in that way. It worked, because people valued and believed in the system, something lacking today, where apathy is the general attitude towards politics. We know they're corrupt, so why bother voting? The pure democracy may not have always been perfect, but it's much better than what we have today.

 

[Northern Lights]

Hmm, correct me if I've gotten my history wrong, but weren't ancient greek democracy sort of like the American one (well up until around the middle of the 20th century anyway) ie only certain influential men were allowed to vote, and slaves and women weren't allowed to?
Other than that, you're (sadly) right about how little people care... Not only because politicians are corrupt, but also because people aren't really interested in knowing what's going on... For instance, referendums shouldn't really be valid anymore, since most people never bother finding out more about what they're voting for or against. Most of them have already formed an opinion and won't change it, such as "the euro is bad. why? I have no idea. it's strange. new. foreign. and stuff."

 

[Dark_Jester]

What you said about the Greek democracy is true, but what I was saying was that amongst those who vote, voting was enforced, there wasn't the choice not to vote. But the rest of what was said stands, and I agree with you. If we really want people to become interested in governance again, we need to make changes, eliminate corruption, and actually inform people about what needs to be done, rather than empty promises, smear campaigns and the other lovely political tricks.

 

[Kovenant84]

I like how the Greeks did jury duty, too. "Ok, all of you in the courtyard down there - we need you for a little bit..."

~Kov.

 

[fireangel]

very good post D_J. About what should be done, and why people are not interested (what NL said and is true also), there must be taken something more into account: Politicians are no role models or anything anymore, it´s not only corruption, its the whole behaviour. Politicians are elected as representative of the inhabitants, so not everybody does politics, but the elected ones do it instead. That means it is a bit strange if there is no party which would actually act in a way that brings in my interests, and the problem that parties more and more equal each other in their daily politics.

What annoys me also is that exactly those politicians who try telling the folks that there is not enough money for education, social issues, infrastructure etc at the same time just throw it away with their decisions for useless things, their ineconomic handling of bureaucratic affairs and all the staff, equipment etc they have in the ministerial buildings, because I can´t see they would use it very good; and their ton of priviledges. Each Member of Parliament for example gets a free card for to use all trains in Germany. yeah, well, but most use the airplane (for example for the distance Berlin-Bonn), so why on earth do we need to pay both?? Such thing is what makes people desinterested in politics, that they don´t act according to what they preach.

 

[Northern Lights]

@fireangel: very good point. I'm often baffled by the ways politicians choose to spend money; for example, in Sweden all politicians have the right to a pension if they've been in the government (riksdag? reichstag how do you translate that?) for 6 years (I think) - a fairly high pension, and you receive this even if you find another job afterwards. And you also receive this even if you've been thrown out of the governement and even your own party for committing fraud... If this system was abolished, or at least reformed, lots of money would be saved.

Another thing which is interesting is that most politicians choose to raise their own salaries while cutting down expenses for school and healthcare, claiming "there is no money". Yet I live in a country which has the highest taxes in Europe (at least it was last time I heard anything about it) There's a tax on everything (these are taxes that even the politicians themselves try their best not to pay, the hypocritical bastards) - and yet you're telling me there's no money? Maybe you have considerable expenses, my dear leaders, but has it ever occurred to you to go through them and see what expenses definitely aren't necessary, instead of decreasing the amount you spend on education. I love the fact that in one or two of the courses I've taken we couldn't use books, because the ones they had were too old and thus inaccurate and the school couldn't afford to get new ones... On our maps, the Soviet Union and East and West Germany still exist, and Czechia and Slovakia are still one nation.

I guess the problem is that many become politicians for life, and go straight into it without working first, or if they have worked they forget what it was like. I believe they lose touch with reality after a while, so how can they justify making decisions that affect ordinary people and not actually themselves? There should be some kind of restriction - x years, then you have to find another job for x years until you can try politics again, etc.
And for fuck's sake, make sure they're qualified for their positions. The Swedish Minister of Finance failed maths in school. How reassuring Ok, maybe he doesn't need to be an expert on 2nd degree equations to do well in that position, but it would definitely be reassuring if he at least had some clue about numbers... Trust me, I've passed maths classes up to level B (not very high, granted, but still) - you have to work a bit, but it's not difficult to pass. If I can manage, then how bloody incompetent isn't he?

Right... I've been ranting a bit now.

 

[Dark_Jester]

I once thought of a solution to this, funnily enough it makes most politically-orientated people go nuts

I think that politicians who are in governmental positions should be nominated by people for their abilities, not tied to any political party. If they are nominated, and then elected, all their assets are immediately frozen. They are given lodgings and food and etc, all items are provided for them, they do not spend a single coin on anything they need, but at the same time, money would be worthless to them anyway. They only serve a single term, maybe 3 years, maybe 5, thus eliminating further elements of corruption that come with never leaving office. They must then strive to govern in their field as well as they are able to. If they are a success, and the economy does well, then when their assets are unfrozen, as a bonus for good work, the price of their belongings have increased. Therefore, it is in the politicians interest as well as the publics for corruption to be eliminated which may have a negative effect on the country.

This is just the rough summary of my plan, but I think that although it may be seen as harsh, I think in the long run it could lead to a much more effective government.

 

[Salamurhaaja]

I say viva la revolution and elect a new government from this forum.

 

[Dark_Jester]

That gives me an idea for a thread...

 

[Northern Lights]

Ben: I actually think it's a good idea Reminds me of Platos ideas (although he wanted the rulers to be philosophers...): anyone who ruled was to have no property and no family, because the way he saw it, riches and family ties (preventing situations such as: oh, the prime minister's nephew suddenly got a very important ambassador post in Chile, despite the fact he can't speak spanish and though Chile was actually a part of Africa until someone showed him a map...) meant corruption was never far away.
I'd like to see it tried... Well, at least the no property/economical benefits part

 

[Salamurhaaja]

That gives me an idea for a thread...

Uh oh, that is never a good thing

 

[Dark_Jester]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey...

Ooh! Ooh! Black metal politics! The politics of gr1m!

 

[Salamurhaaja]

@NL
The no family part would also prevent all kinds of kidnap threats.

Also, all connections to corporations should be forbidden during the time
in power, any and all changes that help corporation would be automatically
vetoed and the person suggesting such would get the death penalty.
Death to corporations, the other bane of the world.

@DJ
Sorry

 

[fireangel]

Northern Lights, Dark_Jester:


It would be "Reichstag" for Sweden, when there the swedish version is "riksdag". So yes. But for Germany, the equal is "Bundestag", because Germany is a federation (Bund). Confusingly enough, the building, in which they work, is the "Reichstag", which is a remainder of history, from when there was a "Deutsches Reich" (I don´t mean the nazi-version, also before it had that name).


Concerning the income of politicians and their pensions, I fully agree, the same crap here. I heard the reason why they got so high income was to prevent bribery, but obviously it doesn´t prevent that at all, so we should maybe think about other methods.
Also they earn less money than in a very good job in big companies, so they still have less and it would be insane to raise it even more in order to reduce the difference.
It was a good suggestion about a time-limit for their election, because yes, that would maybe reduce too tight connections everywhere and also they wouldn´t be so tempted to get a full-time politician (and having to stick to that, no matter what happens). It seems all the ministers have a huge amount of advisors around, who do the real work in the background, but IMHO they should be intelligent and qualified enough to overlook their field.


Some other aspect, what NL started, and came to my mind again aswell is, that the voters are also not taking their responsibility. Yes, there are reasons for that politicians are bad (see my first post), on the other hand it´s not a good way out to be not interested at all. At least people should try to be a bit informed about what´s going on and the political system of their country - even though dealing with these topics is not exactly big fun as we discussed before.

Where is the emergency exit from this drama?

 

[Salamurhaaja]

Back to Iraq we go, cos I just read something I can't quite
stomach:

Subject: "nick berg and abu ghraib"[7b]

today members of congress will be given full access to the infamous abu ghraib photos. all the stuff we've seen, plus tons of stuff we haven't, and, as usual, it's the stuff we haven't seen that's supposed to be the worst of it. now here's what you do. you take all of those pictures and put them together into one powerpoint presentation. you can cherry-pick the worst of the worst if you like, or you can march them all before us in one long, brutal parade. then you take those photos of nick berg having his head sawn off--or even the video of you think you can stomach it--and prepare a second presentation. no adornments to either. no narration. just the facts. you then show your presentations to every american of voting age.

i promise you this: by tomorrow, every one of those accused prison guards will have shiny new medals of honor pinned to their chests and there won't be enough left of iraq to fill a coffee can.

Source: Slate.com

People with this level of stupidity shouldn't excist, I hope he isn't let out
of the asylum to breed.

ok, yes, Berg's dead wasn't anything nice to look at, but he is dead, he was
killed in a very brutal way, I don't deny that and no one should die like that.

But saying that it was worse than what happened at Abu Ghraib is just stupid.
Does this guy really think that these people will ever have a normal life again?
If in fact they don't end it, cos of the shame it brings to their families and to
them, which is another thing this guy doesn't concider.

And of course, Berg is only one person (not to mention american).

 

[Salamurhaaja]

Ok, I wonder why the fuck my post didn't bounce this thread.
Fucking UM.

 

[Villain]

ok, yes, Berg's dead wasn't anything nice to look at, but he is dead, he was
killed in a very brutal way, I don't deny that and no one should die like that.

But saying that it was worse than what happened at Abu Ghraib is just stupid.
Does this guy really think that these people will ever have a normal life again?
If in fact they don't end it, cos of the shame it brings to their families and to
them, which is another thing this guy doesn't concider.

Not to mention that many of the Iraqi prisoners were actually killed. Humiliated, tortured, raped and brutally murdered. Several Afghan prisoners have also been killed. The International Red Cross (or some other organisation of high status, I could have confused them and won't bother to check now) said something along the lines of: 70-90% of the Iraqis taken as prisoners by the Americans are innocent civilians. Thus, in effect, what we see is innocent people being brutally tortured and murdered.

George W. Bush should die like Nick Berg did.

-Villain

 

[Child of Time]

NL: Riksdagen is "the parliament"

I think a state designed after Plato's ideas would be good, but it would for sure not be democratic. It wouldn't work if it was either. If the most suitable individual for an assignment was electable among other candidates, then the risk that the populace would elect the "wrong" guy would be 97%.

I heard the reason why they got so high income was to prevent bribery, but obviously it doesn´t prevent that at all, so we should maybe think about other methods.

In Swedish there's a saying: "Much wants more"

anyone who ruled was to have no property and no family, because the way he saw it, riches and family ties...meant corruption was never far away.

Yes, it would be much harder to corrupt the politicians if this was implied, but would they be good politicians? For example, would the child care/education minister do a good work if he hadn't raised his own kids and got the experience needed to be able to handle a top job in the field? If he can't imagine how it feels, why would he bother at all?

 

[wildfyr]

George W. Bush should die like Nick Berg did.

-Villain

Nah. That's too good for him, Villain. He should have his fucking head blown off like JFK.

To the American citizens of the board:

Why has Bush not been impeached yet? The fact that he remains in office and continues to wreak havoc completely blows my mind! Enough of this piece of human scum and his kind already!! Dhamn. Wtf?

Why should 'we' have to pay restitution? 'We' being the ones who DID NOT vote for that poor excuse for a human male in 2000, and the ones who were against their pre-emptive wars.

Oh yeah, I know why. It's because "United We Stand." Well, ya know what? I'm absolutely livid that 'we' have to foot the bill for something 'we' did not want in the first fucking place! They circumvented the process. They should be REMOVED FROM OFFICE IMMEDIATELY and they should NOT be allowed to continue to misappropriate OUR money for this illegal war. Enough already! Take them out. Pull the plug on them, NOW, as in it should have been done yesterday.

They lied to us, distorted facts, trampled our Constitution and Bill of Rights, tarnished our credibility with the rest of the world, etc, etc, and they continue to get away with it! WHY?! We (all of us) have to assume responsibility for the actions of those few fuckwits who went against our will, AND proper protocol. I think they - anyone who was pro-war - should have to pay for this mess that THEY wanted and started. (Take a look back on the first few pages of this thread to see who all owes...BIG time )

Then when they're done paying restitution, I think I'd really like to see them dangling from the gallows for their crimes. But we all know that's not going to happen. We're all going to have to pay for this huge shit sandwich Bush and his misadministration has force-fed us. We'll probably end up paying for their nice fat pension, too. BULLSHIT! Fuck that noise. Fuck it sideways!