The great and all powerful religion thread!

[unknown]

and the two threads came together, and unknown looked at what he had done and saw that it was good

 

[waif]

okay, merging works fine. everyone happy?

 

[mutantllama]

I myself am sorta of an Atheist, but believe in some Pagan ideas, like how we should be with nature, and that stuff. I have nothing against Christians who go along with their own business, and don't bother me about Christianity. I have nothing against Jesus, or his ideas of love, and how we shouldn't worry about greed and stuff like that. I think Iced Earth's Brainwashed fits somewhat in here.

Christ it's nothing personal, you've got to see, they twist and turn your words for their own needs

 

[Vashti]

My anger towards the religion generally stems from the way the church has acted over the years and the way Christianity has been used as a tool by the powerful.

"the church" who is "the church"? the catholic church I presume? well I am gonna be honest, I'm not gonna act like I know what's going on in the church and what the corruption is because I don't. I'm not defending them or supporting them, all I know is that alot of christians claim to be christian and it's usually for some other reason that isn't right like money or publicity...that's the only corruption I know.
Christian is used like a tool by the powerful...but is that Christian's fault? those people that do that aren't really christian...they are greedy.

 

[Einherjar86]

My problem with Christianity is all the horrible atrocities that have been committed in its name. Varg said it best when he said that Christianity should look to "the ruins upon which it has built its churches." Furthermore, I find it human to sympathize with Lucifer, and impossible to relate to the idea of the Christian God. The idea of God is an actual logical impossibility. Even in his description we find inherent flaws (which is interesting, considering he is the ideal of perfection). For instance, God is supposed to omniscient. If he is omniscient, then it must follow that he knows everything; even his own future. However, God is also omnipotent; able to do anything. Thus, it follows that he is in complete control of his own existence (i.e. he has free will). But if he already knows his own future, then that means that his fate is predetermined, and he has no free will. The entire idea of God encompasses so many logical flaws that it's almost impossible to believe in.

Now, this is purely my personal belief. I don't mean to insult anyone who believes otherwise (and I think people who do believe otherwise know this). I only find it more human to sympathize and identify with the flawed and the imperfect (ala Lucifer). Christianity wants each human being to aspire to perfection and godliness; but the truth is, no human being can claim to have attained such a status.

 

[waif]

for a long time it was just "the church," since there was only one.

I don't hate jesus, though I don't agree with his teachings, I don't blame him for what's happened to his teachings, but I do hate what has become of his message.

 

[waif]

My problem with Christianity is all the horrible atrocities that have been committed in its name. Varg said it best when he said that Christianity should look to "the ruins upon which it has built its churches." Furthermore, I find it human to sympathize with Lucifer, and impossible to relate to the idea of the Christian God. The idea of God is an actual logical impossibility. Even in his description we find inherent flaws (which is interesting, considering he is the ideal of perfection). For instance, God is supposed to omniscient. If he is omniscient, then it must follow that he knows everything; even his own future. However, God is also omnipotent; able to do anything. Thus, it follows that he is in complete control of his own existence (i.e. he has free will). But if he already knows his own future, then that means that his fate is predetermined, and he has no free will. The entire idea of God encompasses so many logical flaws that it's almost impossible to believe in.

Now, this is purely my personal belief. I don't mean to insult anyone who believes otherwise (and I think people who do believe otherwise know this). I only find it more human to sympathize and identify with the flawed and the imperfect (ala Lucifer). Christianity wants each human being to aspire to perfection and godliness; but the truth is, no human being can claim to have attained such a status.

This is all well-thought out and rational, but that's precisely why you're missing the point. As I said earlier, faith isn't about being right or logic or anything, it's about believing. I asked earlier that for that reason we not bother going into logical gaps or talking about evidence for or against god.

 

[Einherjar86]

Well, I was only explaining why I don't believe in the idea of the Christian God. If we abstain from using logical thought processes for debating then there's really nowhere to go. I simply don't believe in that. I believe in something greater, but not the Christian system of faith.

 

[waif]

I meant we should sit around nitpicking the details. Perhaps we could debate the tenets of christianity?

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

I simply don't understand 3...

 

[Vashti]

My problem with Christianity is all the horrible atrocities that have been committed in its name. Varg said it best when he said that Christianity should look to "the ruins upon which it has built its churches." Furthermore, I find it human to sympathize with Lucifer, and impossible to relate to the idea of the Christian God. The idea of God is an actual logical impossibility. Even in his description we find inherent flaws (which is interesting, considering he is the ideal of perfection). For instance, God is supposed to omniscient. If he is omniscient, then it must follow that he knows everything; even his own future. However, God is also omnipotent; able to do anything. Thus, it follows that he is in complete control of his own existence (i.e. he has free will). But if he already knows his own future, then that means that his fate is predetermined, and he has no free will. The entire idea of God encompasses so many logical flaws that it's almost impossible to believe in.

Now, this is purely my personal belief. I don't mean to insult anyone who believes otherwise (and I think people who do believe otherwise know this). I only find it more human to sympathize and identify with the flawed and the imperfect (ala Lucifer). Christianity wants each human being to aspire to perfection and godliness; but the truth is, no human being can claim to have attained such a status.

You know, you make a good point on the part that God knows His own fate...but that would mean He has no free will. but God has no fate...He isn't like us. God is just THERE (imo of course). He has no fate...my belief is that He is the creator of everything, like our Father and we are here living...with a destiny and a fate and He is up there lol with no fate because well...He doesn't need it. that makes no sense does it? Does anyone else ever have that when stuff makes total sense in your head but not when you put it into words?

I think you are exaggerating on the perfection of humans needing to be exactly like God. God only says to strive to be like Him...but if you read the Bible God is also merciful and loving and knows we will never reach that point. btw, sorry if I'm offending anyone by talking like that like saying "God says..." because I know most of you aren't Christian.
back to my point though, it's what it is in the Bible....that God is supposed to be a loving, merciful yet strict God. Even in the Bible it says that when you ask Him for forgiveness He will remember your sin no more...meaning that God doesn't bring up what you did wrong, He doesn't focus on your imperfections...He only wants you to try your best and that pleases Him. yeah we are supposed to aspire to godliness...but it doesn't have to be with strain and constanat disappointment, it's not like that. Rather, "God says" you will receive a blessing or a gift from Him for doing good works...you're praised for trying.

 

[RampageSword]

This is all well-thought out and rational, but that's precisely why you're missing the point. As I said earlier, faith isn't about being right or logic or anything, it's about believing. I asked earlier that for that reason we not bother going into logical gaps or talking about evidence for or against god.

True.

And to Ein, you say you believe in Lucifer (or that at least you find it more understandable for one to do so) but I doubt that by believing in him you actually mean believing in his very existence and that if we dig deep enough, we might meet his secretary for tea and crackers, right? You probably use him as metaphor, a representation of what you believe in (man is imperfect and we all have a dark side, young Skywalker..) But then debating that Christianity is oh so flawed because their god's physical existence cannot be proven...you're basically bashing every form of belief for what it's not.

Of course there are those who literally live "by the book" but those are extremes, exaggerations of the majority of believers. Those following a religion will follow it because they believe in the moral values it conducts and for what else it might represent that they relate to. Then everything else is traditions and culture. Regarding all the horrors conducted by religions throughout the world well...in any instance, when a man gains power over a group of people that are ready (or forced) to follow him, stupid things are bound to happen. This goes for the Pope, Hitler, Stalin, Hannibal, Mickey Mouse or anyone else for that matter.

As of me, I do not despise religions but I do believe them to be nothing more than philosophies turned into some sort of cult (do not read as pejorative).

 

[RampageSword]

I meant we should sit around nitpicking the details. Perhaps we could debate the tenets of christianity?

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

I simply don't understand 3...

Out of this list, some are useless in terms of human morality. If we take it down to the bare-bone of what should be followed by anyone, then keep only 6, 8, 9 and 10 (with limitations but still, spending a lifetime wishing you have what this other guy has, you wind up not doing much).

The rest are add-ons, specific to the traditions of this specific religion. Number 1 is racist and discriminatory but I doubt its intent is towards hating other religions as much as it is about having its own members following only one cult at a time, please.

 

[Vashti]

I meant we should sit around nitpicking the details. Perhaps we could debate the tenets of christianity?

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

I simply don't understand 3...

You are right though...there is no logic in Christianity. I know that sounds weird to say that Christianity makes no sense yet I still believe it...but I do.

about commandment 3. You know that it's taking His name in vain to say "goddamn" or "oh my god"....you take God's name in vain when you use it without reverence. Anytime you say God and aren't referring to GOD or a god at all....it's taking His name in vein. Also anytime you use His name as a witness to a lie. such as when you are in court and you swear by His name...yet you lie...you take His name in vain as you have not used it with reverence and have used it carelessly witnessing Him to you're falseness.

"The Pharisee of the parable, for instance, used the name of God with a loud voice and raised his hands and eyes, but in vain. His intent was to gain arrogant personal satisfaction rather than to present a devoted prayer in repentance and humbleness."
^^ I found that one a website....does that explain it a little more for you?




don't mind the video. haha I just thought I would post it since I was listening to it.

 

[sevag00]

I simply don't understand 3...

Why's that? It's very clear. Don't use God's name for no reason.

 

[Einherjar86]

Vashti-
I suppose I don't believe that humans should even have to strive for such perfection. Individuals have the right to pursue the endeavors they see fit. "Do what thou wilt." I don't mean to blatantly reference Satanism, but I believe that sentiment. Which leads me to Rampage's comment...

I don't believe literally in Lucifer, no. You're right, I find symbolism in his image. But I'm not bashing every form of belief. The description of the Christian God is filled with inconsistencies, in my opinion. Now, there could easily be a belief that said some form of greater power created this world. It doesn't necessarily have to be a perfect, infallible being. Perfection is not a staple of a god, as is evident in the ancient mythologies. However, Christianity purports this idea of an omnipotent, omniscient god, which I find implausible.

Now, to WAIF:
We could nitpick the details, but I really don't think you'll get very far. For instance, the third commandment; I don't get it either, but I don't believe that I'll be punished for committing such an act. People who follow those commandments believe that they will be punished for breaking them. They obey out of fear (or love, some might say; I view it as fear...). I don't understand why using the lord's name in vain is disrespectful either. Perhaps someone here can explain it to us.

EDIT: you beat me to it.

 

[RampageSword]

I don't believe literally in Lucifer, no. You're right, I find symbolism in his image. But I'm not bashing every form of belief. The description of the Christian God is filled with inconsistencies, in my opinion.

Still, the Christian god is, like your fallen angel guy, a representation used for symbolism. Most Christians won't say "God exists" they'd rather say "I believe he exists". The fact that he is infallible and perfect, well that's just a particularity of this religion and if you find this to be unsatisfying for you, it's your decision. I agree with you that the logic of an omniscient God is, or can be seen as, flawed. If something greater did create us and everything else that grows, that "creator" is bound to be neither good nor bad, but rather stuck in between the two, like us IMO.

Now, there could easily be a belief that said some form of greater power created this world. It doesn't necessarily have to be a perfect, infallible being. Perfection is not a staple of a god, as is evident in the ancient mythologies. However, Christianity purports this idea of an omnipotent, omniscient god, which I find implausible.

Christianity can be seen as less plausible than let's say Greek mythology because in Greek mythology, the gods are also backstabbin' mofo's. Okay, but the point of Christianity is for its believers to follow its values and beliefs. The Christian mythology is in a way simplified, you have God and Satan, good and evil. God represents the perfection which mankind wishes to attend (but will not 'cause we're flawed, apparently) and Satan represents all that is not nice and which mankind wish will never become. This debate is getting useless, I seem to be somewhat in agreement with you. However, I do not agree that Christianity is a lesser form of belief simply because I (or you) find it flawed.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

at finding incredibly glaring faults in the tenets of Christianity yet believing it anyway.

If someone comes up to you with a rock in his hand and says it's a butterfly, do you believe him too? Think for yourself.

 

[mutantllama]

If there really is a god he will let Atheists in, because they used their own mind.

 

[Valerie]

at finding incredibly glaring faults in the tenets of Christianity yet believing it anyway.

If someone comes up to you with a rock in his hand and says it's a butterfly, do you believe him too? Think for yourself.

He'll just have faith that it's really a butterfly.

 

[Thoth-Amon]

If there really is a god he will let Atheists in, because they used their own mind.

i don't see why god makes such a big deal out of 'believing in him' or not. i mean if he really wants to let us know he's there why doesn't he just do it? why all the vagueness? not only that... is it reasonable to send someone to eternal torment because they aren't convinced that said god exists even though he's suspiciously absent from the picture?