The great innovators of Metal

[The Butt]

Eh? Is this because of Fade to Black? Metal has had a sincere and introspective focus since Sabbath and Priest.

Just change it to "thrash metal with a sincere and introspective focus".

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Just change it to "thrash metal with a sincere and introspective focus".

lol, but even there you have Watchtower. Unless "sincere and introspective" requires emo self-loathing, in which case there is Megadeth. And I've never been convinced about the sincerity of Fade to Black's lyrics anyways, considering the story behind them.

 

[Estellise Sidos Heurassein]

Metallica - Helped commercialize metal and taught countless bands how to stop making inspired music and start making loads of cash.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Ugh... I thought I was sure of you being Omni's new sock puppet based on your comment about Dodens, your trolling of Belligerent (with information so far back in the whining & bitching thread it seems unlikely for a newcomer to have referenced), this snide jab at commercialistic metal, and just the timing of your arrival since Dodens hinted that Omni might be returning soon... but some of your earlier posts seem totally out of character for her, and to have engineered all of them as "chaff" would just be too elaborate even for Omni.

You could easily be her sister, but you're unlikely to admit that since if you were you'd be in on her game. If you're not at all connected to Omni, though, I would think you'd have at least commented in some way on the allegations that you are.

Deron should do an IP address comparison between these two accounts for us and shed some light on this mystery.

 

[rms]

Metallica - Helped commercialize metal and taught countless bands how to stop making inspired music and start making loads of cash.

this is ridiculous, and the fact they created 4 timeless albums in the 80s is insane. I can only think of one other band off the top of my head that has done that

 

[rms]

I've renamed the "Non-metal influences" list to "Innovators closely related to metal" after realising that there are simply too many non-metal influences on metal to bother including in this list. Using "closely related" as our measuring stick allows us to narrow the scope of discussion to bands who are at least part metal in some way, which is much less of a headache.

Fates Warning, Queensryche and Watchtower are all on the list now.

And here's my current list of "candidates that need more discussion" in case anyone wants to tackle any of these in more detail or add additional bands:

Blue Cheer (proto-metal, 1968)
Candlemass (epic doom metal, 1986)
Cirith Ungol (US-style power metal, 1980)
Dream Death (death-doom, 1987)
Faith No More (alternative/nu/funk metal, 1985)
Helloween (European-style power metal, 1985)
Iron Butterfly (proto-metal, 1968)
Isis (post-metal, 2002)
Led Zeppelin (proto-metal, 1969)
Legend (epic metal, 1979)
Manilla Road (US-style power metal, 1980)
Mercyful Fate (black metal, 1983)
Meshuggah (tech death - song structure, 1995)
Motörhead (speed metal, 1979)
Mr. Bungle (alternative/nu metal, 1986)
Paradise Lost (death-doom, 1989)
Rainbow (influence on US-style power metal, 1975)
Venom (black metal & influence on thrash, 1981)

not to really nit pick but I don't really consider, maybe im just an outside on this, Manilla Road US Power Metal. I consider that scene like Ample Destruction/Helstar/omen etc

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Grant: It's Omni. Same hostname, different IP address. Located in Tampa, Florida. If it's not her, it's probably her sister though that seems unlikely. She pulled a pretty good masquerade off until about 4 days ago though when it became obvious

 

[Einherjar86]

Budgie probably deserves a mention. I'm not that familiar with their material, but they definitely had an influence on metal.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Grant: It's Omni. Same hostname, different IP address. Located in Tampa, Florida. If it's not her, it's probably her sister though that seems unlikely. She pulled a pretty good masquerade off until about 4 days ago though when it became obvious

Yeah, it's got to be her. It's just hard to believe how far out of her way she went to act "out of character" and throw people off when she first created the new account. Just... wtf

Anyway, to everyone else who's actually on-topic here: I'll address your posts when I have a bit more free time.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Yeah, it's got to be her. It's just hard to believe how far out of her way she went to act "out of character" and throw people off when she first created the new account. Just... wtf

It is likely because she's just a huge nerd with too much time on her hands

 

[Eligos]

The cat's out of the bag. inb4 lightbulb

 

[skeptik]

If it is her, then she's done a very elaborate job to fool even me, and I would be extremely pissed at her, given that I haven't talked to her in about two weeks now. I would be very surprised if that was the case, though.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

If it is her, then she's done a very elaborate job to fool even me, and I would be extremely pissed at her, given that I haven't talked to her in about two weeks now. I would be very surprised if that was the case, though.

Surprised? I think the evidence is pretty solid at this point.

Unless you're in on it too, of course.

 

[Eligos]

They're grasping at straws at this point, especially after V5's post. Maybe Omni forgot her password?

 

[skeptik]

Surprised? I think the evidence is pretty solid at this point.

Unless you're in on it too, of course.

I am aware of the highly suspicious nature of the situation, so I'm not going to try to pretend that I can prove otherwise, but I honestly don't believe it's her and I would be surprised if that turned out to be the case. If it IS by chance the case, then I'm certainly not in on it and I would be more annoyed by it than anyone else here. There are some definite and obvious similarities between the two, but there are also differences that perhaps only I would be aware of due to my private conversations with both.

 

[no country for old wainds]

itt dodens puts on some teitanblood and weeps about a girl posting on an internet forum without telling him

 

[Eligos]

I would do the same if all of the sudden there was a particular junkie posting on a different account without telling me after a long recess.

 

[Badbird]

I've renamed the "Non-metal influences" list to "Innovators closely related to metal" after realising that there are simply too many non-metal influences on metal to bother including in this list. Using "closely related" as our measuring stick allows us to narrow the scope of discussion to bands who are at least part metal in some way, which is much less of a headache.

Fates Warning, Queensryche and Watchtower are all on the list now.

And here's my current list of "candidates that need more discussion" in case anyone wants to tackle any of these in more detail or add additional bands:

Blue Cheer (proto-metal, 1968)
Candlemass (epic doom metal, 1986)
Cirith Ungol (US-style power metal, 1980)
Dream Death (death-doom, 1987)
Faith No More (alternative/nu/funk metal, 1985)
Helloween (European-style power metal, 1985)
Iron Butterfly (proto-metal, 1968)
Isis (post-metal, 2002)
Led Zeppelin (proto-metal, 1969)
Legend (epic metal, 1979)
Manilla Road (US-style power metal, 1980)
Mercyful Fate (black metal, 1983)
Meshuggah (tech death - song structure, 1995)
Motörhead (speed metal, 1979)
Mr. Bungle (alternative/nu metal, 1986)
Paradise Lost (death-doom, 1989)
Rainbow (influence on US-style power metal, 1975)
Venom (black metal & influence on thrash, 1981)

Altough they both had a influence on nu-metal,I wouldn't consider both FNM or Mr Bungle nu metal bands.However I think both should be on your list for influence even if it was a bad one.

 

[Eligos]

Thergothon/Funeral/Skepticism for funeral doom plz thx?

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Helloween is pretty much a must, given that power-metal guitarists and vocalists have been imitating Hansen and Kiske since 1987.

Helloween
* Formulated the standard sound for European power metal. (Keeper of the Seven Keys Pt. 1, 1987)

How does that look?

I'd argue that Stratovarius also played a significant part in power-metal influence, but if you have to pick one, it's clearly Helloween.

Yeah, Stratovarius seem distinctive in some way, but they seem like more a refinement of power metal than an innovation of it.

I'll come back and make my cases for Rainbow, Cirith Ungol, and Manilla Road later, although suffice to say there would be no Iced Earth or related bands without those guys.

I look forward to it. Glad to have someone here who's willing to be thorough when speaking for a band.

How is Venom not on the list yet? All early extreme metal spawned from them. Bathory, Death, Slayer, you name it, the Venom influence is obvious. And honestly, I think that Black Metal is just as much a thrash metal album as Kill 'Em All is.

Venom
* The first extreme metal band, utilizing a combination of grating, heavily distorted guitar tone, rapid tempos and growling vocals. (Welcome to Hell, 1981)

Yea/nay?

I'm not too sure about Dream Death. Journey Into Mystery is a great album, but it's nowhere near the Winter-esque tempos that doom/death is associated with, and really isn't a death metal album at all. It's more like a thrashier/Slayer-y To Mega Therion.

I don't know shit about Dream Death, or death/doom for that matter, so you'll have to explain what changes you think need to be made to the list.

Mercyful Fate wasn't the first band with Satanic lyrics and musically there is little that crossed over from them to the second wave. Obviously an important, unique, influential, and awesome band, but as far as "The first to do x" goes, I'm not sure that they qualify. Their songs on the first two are considerably less verse/chorus/verse/chorus than other metal at the time, and if The Spectre Within (which is pretty MF-influenced itself) counts as a progressive metal album, so should those.

Yeah, I'd be willing to take MF off the "under consideration" list. Cool band and all, but they probably didn't invent anything.

EDIT: Oh, and I have to question something...



Eh? Is this because of Fade to Black? Metal has had a sincere and introspective focus since Sabbath and Priest.

"Sincere and introspective" may be bad wording, but I still see Metallica as introducing a huge attitude shift in metal. Maybe something along these lines:

Metallica
* Broke the mold of fantasy and glam attitudes in metal by introducing a grittier, more emotional vocal style to metal.

would be more appropriate? I mean, I don't know of any pre-Hetfield metal vocalists who sound genuinely angry/upset/agonized/etc. in their singing.

not to really nit pick but I don't really consider, maybe im just an outside on this, Manilla Road US Power Metal. I consider that scene like Ample Destruction/Helstar/omen etc

Okay so what word/s am I supposed to use to describe "that scene"?

Note: I really don't find Manilla Road innovative at all, I just listed them because they were nominated.

Budgie probably deserves a mention. I'm not that familiar with their material, but they definitely had an influence on metal.

Great band, but they really weren't much more than a cross between Zeppelin and Sabbath from what I can tell.

Altough they both had a influence on nu-metal,I wouldn't consider both FNM or Mr Bungle nu metal bands.However I think both should be on your list for influence even if it was a bad one.

I don't listen to either, so someone will have to explain to me what they did that was original.

Thergothon/Funeral/Skepticism for funeral doom plz thx?

Are you saying all three created the style concurrently?

Going back just a step, what in the hell makes the creation of the "funeral doom" sub-subgenre of metal so noteworthy that it needs to be on this list? I'm thinking Thergothon should be taken off if anything.