The Political & Philosophy Thread

[Dak]

But a lot of the fear on campuses right now isn't over deportation; it's over being called a terrorist for wearing a hijab, or being told to "go home" because one has Asian features. There might not be physical violence, but the hatred that underlies such comments is palpable. Students shouldn't have to endure that. That's not a condition of living in the "real world."

Not according to the SPLC etc.

Edit: i think it's interesting the the non-meltdown responses by leftists to the Trump win have fallen into two groups:

Group 1: Clearly we fucked up by not being as SJW as possible.
Group 2: Obviously we fucked up by creating the conditions that made Trump appealing.

Will be interesting to see which group takes control of the Democratic Party. I'm guessing the group with zero introspection.

 

[EternalMetal]

Which parts are natural responses?

The social aspect of it. PC culture is pushing white guilt, and people who arent guilty are pushing back. This is natural as far as im concerned.

Which is originally why I said I didn't support him. If every race except white people have special pandering policies, that would by process of elimination mean that any policy he proposes with intent to balance justice is either blatantly or indirectly there to target whites. If he were to attempt a clean slate and then focus on the poverty issue from a universal position, I'd concede on this, but as far as I'm concerned alt right Trumpism is a vehicle for white social justice of some form or another.

Can it actually work that way, or are you just being an idealist? Inner city poverty vs rural poverty are two separate issues that as it stands just happen to be able to be differentiated in general terms based on race.

Some of what you say about the alt right simply being irreverent anti-PC cultural trolls is true, but I'm friends with enough alt righters to know that behind that face value is actually some very genuine ideological positions. Jewish conspiracism is definitely a thread throughout it all, many genuinely believe in nationalist populism, Pat Buchananist concepts of superior white culture (as in, you can't truly have western values unless you're white), Holocaust denialism, and so on. I've had many discussions with alt righters and behind the fun of memes etc there is definitely genuine belief.

Yea, some people are fucking dumb. Sadly enough I think this is just a result of the more dimwitted people involved in the movement becoming deceived by their own rhetoric. I am no sociologist, but I do think that this might just be a social movement that is a response to liberal PC madness. Or maybe it is the vocal expression of opinions/ideas that have never fully died out in the past?

I have no problem with people having views I think are utterly retarded of course, but I think it's stretching the truth to say the alt right are after any kind of equality, not that the term really has any meaning anymore in my mind.

By this logic then PC culture is only about stamping out white culture and allowing for people of color to rise to power. Overall I think that PC culture means well, but campus liberals and BLM people are starting to pollute the movement with dangerous rhetoric, and are proposing policies and legislation that could set dangerous precedents.

I don't even think the alt right is genuinely against PC culture, I believe they believe they are, but actually they conflate not being PC with being a subhuman piece of shit.

This is basically white people saying 'I hate black people' when black people are saying to them 'I hate white people'. I agree that they are taking it too far at times, but what do you expect from 4-Chan autists?

Also, I agree I do think Trump is actually very moderate. I don't think he gives a shit about social issues at all and he is legitimately coming to the job because he sees business-esque issues he believes he can solve.

Yea, who knows what he will do? Im just glad he won cause it's a giant 'fuck you' to the established government.

 

[Dak]

http://digg.com/2016/revenge-of-the-forgotton-class

 

[no country for old wainds]

 

[tagradh]

I have a quick question for Americans. When you say 'the left' what exactly do you mean? I get its use when you're talking solely about American politics, but people often bring other countries and regions into their 'arguments' and, as a Western European, hearing the Democrats (especially Democrats like Hillary) called 'the left' when they're more closely aligned with center-right parties over here always seems weird.

If you just use it as a pejorative because you're an unimaginative cunt that can't see that they're acting just like the 'SJWs' they moan about then fuck off.

 

[arg]

For me it encompasses the SJWs, those who make everything about identity politics, open borders advocates, and everyone who supports forced wealth redistribution to the needy. Fuck em

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Generally defined by people that have the following views:

1. Identity pandering
2. Expanding the welfare/entitlement state
3. Government intervention/regulation involving personal safety (guns, Big Gulps, etc)

Western Europe is largely so extremely far-left that our leftist parties will naturally seem right-of-center.

 

[tagradh]

By making that (absurd) claim you've surely pushed Communism into the realm of fiction. If the likes of the UK and Germany are the 'extreme', what space is there to their left?

Edit: it's not just Western Europe anyway. And you can't claim that all of Europe is further to the left because there are a fair few prominent right wing parties over here. It just seems like, in general (the result of your media and whatnot in the Cold War, perhaps) Americans have a rather skewed view.

You've fucked the word 'liberal', anyway.

 

[tagradh]

For me it encompasses the SJWs, those who make everything about identity politics, open borders advocates, and everyone who supports forced wealth redistribution to the needy. Fuck em

Open borders, free movement of labour, cost cutting, lower wages. Doesn't sound especially 'lefty' to me. The 'right' alternative of the 'SJW' is undoubtedly a thing. Wealth redistribution is the only valid point you have there.

 

[arg]

Open borders, free movement of labour, cost cutting, lower wages. Doesn't sound especially 'lefty' to me. The 'right' alternative of the 'SJW' is undoubtedly a thing. Wealth redistribution is the only valid point you have there.

The idea of open borders may not be lefty at its core, but it has been hijacked by the lefties to shove their diversity narrative down our throats. "Open borders for the illegals and benefits-sucking refugees because diversity and love!" is definitely lefty.

As a libertarian I would support open borders (because you're right it's supposed to be a freedom thing not a lefty thing and libertarians like freedom) if they were NOT granted access to our welfare and healthcare and it had no bad economic effects. But that is not the case in reality and the fiscal conservative aspect of libertarianism is more important to me so I don't support it.

 

[no country for old wainds]

here's how the political compass places them, for what it's worth

edit: this was their original primaries chart

explanations here.

 

[Dak]

Almost all political terminology in the US is fucking useless outside of SJW or "Religious Right" at this point. I don't even know what left/right even means at this point for most people. For some, rightwing means "judeo-christian values". For others, it means "pro-business", or maybe it means "racism". Etc. Most people have a non-principled grab bag of self-interested political persuasions. Conversely, for some, leftwing means "secular". For others, it means "anti-business", or maybe it means "intersectional feminism" or "free stuffs".

In short, the political compass site is pretty useless.

 

[CiG]

When I say "the left" I basically mean cultural Marxists and/or progressives. Welfare expansionism wasn't always a left-wing thing, but now it mostly is. Hillary Clinton was basically meant to be a means to continue Obama's legacy and if you've read his books you know he's not right-wing or even much of a centrist.

Hillary Clinton is certainly not right-wing but it's no secret that Bernie Sanders represents the true left-wing of American politics, everything has moved so far left that even Bernie might seem too moderate for a western European leftist.

I'd hardly even want to use western Europe as a compass for who is or isn't left or right-wing. You have people over there forgiving immigrants for raping or assaulting them because of their leftist white guilt. Western Europe's mind was so open it fucking fell out.

Hell, the U.K. has moved so far left over the decades that the conservative party no longer represents conservatism of any description I'm familiar with.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

By making that (absurd) claim you've surely pushed Communism into the realm of fiction. If the likes of the UK and Germany are the 'extreme', what space is there to their left?

Edit: it's not just Western Europe anyway. And you can't claim that all of Europe is further to the left because there are a fair few prominent right wing parties over here. It just seems like, in general (the result of your media and whatnot in the Cold War, perhaps) Americans have a rather skewed view.

You've fucked the word 'liberal', anyway.

Most European countries are not sustainable at their current level of socialism, combined with heightened immigration. Germany is doing fine because they're still hardcore workers and have a special place in the EU that allows them to import cheaper labor from Turkey and elsewhere while selling tons of goods to countries like Spain and Greece that can barely even afford them. All over the world you have nations facing ridiculous amounts of debt and people just keep asking for more. Europe is also far less innovative than it was; drug design, computer tech, etc are almost entirely invented in the USA or Southeast Asia these days. I won't say that all aspects of the world's left-wing shift since the 1930s/40s have been bad, but we're due for a nice correction rightward in the near future.

From what I've seen, at least parts of Eastern Europe are relatively right-leaning compared to your Frances and Denmarks. Estonia has a rather small government and minor tax burden compared to others, almost comparable to the USA, don't they?

I agree that the word liberal has too many meanings to have value without being qualified first, but that's just how it goes. 'Conservative' could mean a Rush Limbaugh-listener or it could mean a supporter of monarchy depending on where you ask as well.

 

[CiG]

Also I don't conflate leftists with liberals personally.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The solution to open borders is to only allow it when countries agree to our property laws. Right now Mexicans can come here, work sub-minimum wage but also avoid income taxes and other things involved in creating our cost of living, and have the option between living and working in the USA or Mexico. Or working in the USA and living in Mexico. Or vice versa. Basically, they're able to double-dip, and we've even seen that they've started self-deporting more once they hit equilibrium with our job market. The ones that come just to work and send cash back home aren't even welfare leeches, but they exploit a system that we aren't able to. If Americans were able to do the opposite, using our excess of cash/goods rather than labor to move south of the border, buy cheap Mexican real-estate and live inexpensively, without being deported, killed by cartel without being able to defend ourselves, being able to do anything without being shaken down by crooked cops, it would be an amazing thing. Some liberals would call it gentrification, but oh well.

A lot of right-wing people criticize the EU, but I think when you have Poles moving to the UK, working harder and finding a better economic situation for themselves (and therefore, their employers), it's a great thing. Same when old Brits move down to Spain to retire. What it does is reveal and equalize disparities between borders, and in theory should encourage nations to adjust their laws to maximize the value their own citizens can find. We need a neo-colonialist world.

 

[SentinelSlain]

A lot of countries have a major part of their economies made up of people sending money home. I don't see how that can be good for the country from which the money is being seeped away. Imagine if all the immigrant workers doing that in Britain left and unemployed brits took those jobs, then they would spend their earnings in Britain and there would be far more money in the economy. Pakistan and Poland are major cases.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

http://digg.com/2016/revenge-of-the-forgotton-class

2016: uneducated white people get tired of living like uneducated non-white people, and blame their problems on non-white people instead of their lack of education.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Not according to the SPLC etc.

Edit: i think it's interesting the the non-meltdown responses by leftists to the Trump win have fallen into two groups:

Group 1: Clearly we fucked up by not being as SJW as possible.
Group 2: Obviously we fucked up by creating the conditions that made Trump appealing.

Will be interesting to see which group takes control of the Democratic Party. I'm guessing the group with zero introspection.

Which group does the following fall into:

Due to demographic and economic trends, white people are losing their political dominance, and that combined with centuries-old racism created the conditions that made Trump appealing.

 

[SentinelSlain]

2016: uneducated white people get tired of living like uneducated non-white people, and blame their problems on non-white people instead of their lack of education.

Trump got more of the college educated white vote didn't he?

What you're saying is a massive oversimplification anyway. Not all the discoveries made in the scientific world lead to new ideas in politics and the reason I bring this up is the increasing knowledge about how big a deal things like heredity and genetics are. There are no visible political movements born out of the new knowledge about these things, but they are highly relevant to both immigration policy and class mobility.