Finally, people seeing the major problem that has risen it's ugly head, and one that i think Glenn is handling in the best way possible, and i agree with Woosta. The problem today is there are no really big tickets bands left out there that haven't been here to the USA and so now Glenn has the problem of creating headliners. I think he is doing the best job of doing this. And then all the naysayers will chime in with their 1-800-cry-baby whinning, well if they can do it better let them try. You can't please all the people all the time, but you can damn sure please part of the people, and make new fans of the rest. FREAK KITCHEN, and ORPHANED LAND come to mind.
The REAL problem from here on out
- Thread starter woosta
- Start date
That's what I am thinking. The isn't a stagnant genre, and if it is - well, then there are more problems with progressive and power metal than Glenn not being able to find future headliners. There are always bands that will rise in popularity after others are on the decline or after they've headlined the fest.
I am also one of those people who don't mind repeats in moderation, as it was pointed out, for most of us our opportunity to see these bands is short sets under less than desirable circumstances.
Believe it or not, I do hope that the festival can stay somewhat within the traditional progressive and power metal guidelines (with the exception of the oddballs to mix it up). I listen to a lot of different styles of metal, and many of the metal bands I like these days are decidedly not trad prog/power metal. But I like the fact that there is a festival for people who like this style, and I'd hate to see it get pushed to the back.
I think the bigger problem will be maintaining the uniqueness factor of the festival. Even a year ago I didn't think power metal ever had a chance in the mainstream, and now it looks like I am beginning to be proven wrong. More and more of these bands are touring on their own, but again, to a degree Glenn is selling an atmosphere. I knew hardly anything about most of the bands at ProgPower IV, and I had one of the best times I can ever remember.
YtseJammer
Member
My thoughts..
For one, no promoter is going to make everyone happy. I'd LOVE to see a band like Khallilce or Pictorial Wand play this festival, but few have heard of them. All 1200 attendees can make a list of 25 bands they'd like to see that nobody else has ever heard of. For that reason, Glenn (rightly) tries to hedge his bets: some prog metal for the die hard Dream Theater fan, some power metal for the Kai Hansen worshiper, a melodic rock band or two and even an "oddball" fan for the death metal/growling lovers out there. While the trip to Atlanta is quite pricey each year, it's the number one thing many of us look forward to each year even though not every band on the lineup makes us jump up and pump our fists. Hell, we all get excited TEN months in advance when the opener is announced. Raintime, who the hell is Raintime? At least that was my initial reaction. Then I heard their debut. Needless to say I'll be going NUTS during Moot-Lie.
After you take into account the "pleasing the masses factor" (and the fact that Glenn has to like the band himself), you have the expense factor. One band that nobody mentions is Vanishing Point. Prog fans love them, power metal fans like them, and I haven't heard anybody say anything negative regarding their last masterpiece. However, they'll probably never play this festival. As mentioned by Glenn, the sheer cost of getting five band members, equipment, etc. from Australia would trump what any sponsor is willing/able to front. Same can be said for other bands. I doubt you see Concerto Moon play this festival anytime in the future. It's a shame, but I suppose it's the way it has to be.
Finally, you have the list of bands that can't seem to keep from cancelling shows. While I don't like Nevermore, they're clearly at the top of this list. Royal Hunt has a problem fulfilling scheduled dates, as does Nightwish. It's a shame, as I think a band like Royal Hunt is perfect for this festival and a US date is long overdue.
I totally understand the philosophy of "making someone into a headliner." While I enjoy Pagan's Mind, I'm not as much of a fan as others on this board. Similarly, I like Primal Fear, but I do think they're the second coming of Judas Priest (which isn't a bad thing per se)...they're just not a band I'm dying to see live. I'll watch their entire set. I'll go nuts during Angel in Black. I'll enjoy a number of other songs. In the end, however, there are bands I'd much prefer to see. Again, to each his own. The way I look at it is this: If he's "taking a chance" by making Pagan's Mind a 4-spot this year, maybe he'll do the same thing next year with Eternity X (reunion factor), Labyrinth (Return to Heaven Denied factor), or a Michael Kiske/Andre Matos solo set, all things I'd pay big money to see.
Lastly, there are still bands that have NOT played this festival that could/should headline: Helloween, Ayreon, Rhapsody, Within Temptation, Fates Warning, and Shadow Gallery are the first half-dozen that come to mind. There are others I'm sure. If one of those bands played, you'd have a sell out the day the tickets go on sale. Sure, not all are "feasible" (see Shadow Gallery), but you understand my point. There are still big drawing bands out there.
Nonetheless, due to a 2-spot band getting a solid hour, essentially there is little difference b/w a 2 and a 4. Thus, while I would like to see Virgin Steele close out Saturday night, I'll take the hour with a smile. Similarly, if I had the opportunity to see a band like Cloudscape, Machinae Supremacy, Tomorrow's Eve, or Poverty's No Crime get an hour of stage time in the US as a "2-spot", I'd be so happy that I'd consider sponsership. In essence, I'm saying that the order of the bands doesn't matter all that much, it's the excitement of seeing some bands play that otherwise would NEVER EVER tour, nevermind play a one-off show in the US. Essentially at the end of the day, the 4-spot band is playing two extra songs. Thus, the headliners themselves have never been a "make or break" factor in determining my attendance at this festival. For example, seeing Vision Divine for an hour last year was worth the entire trip, even though I'm not the biggest fan in the world of Jorn or his choice of setlist last year.
Everyone has a right to complain. I've made posts on this board that have been deleted (expressing a negative opinion) and I think that's a shame, but I don't run this joint. When the smoke clears, I'll be there each year with Gold Badge in hand, waiting to shop, hang out, and bang my head. You're guaranteed AT LEAST a handful of bands each year that you're going to love. Hell, you may not love all of them going into the fest, but might leave the show becoming a gigantic fan. Whoever thought I'd enjoy Freak Kitchen? Not I.
Hey at the very least, it beats work/school/the monotony of life in America.
For one, no promoter is going to make everyone happy. I'd LOVE to see a band like Khallilce or Pictorial Wand play this festival, but few have heard of them. All 1200 attendees can make a list of 25 bands they'd like to see that nobody else has ever heard of. For that reason, Glenn (rightly) tries to hedge his bets: some prog metal for the die hard Dream Theater fan, some power metal for the Kai Hansen worshiper, a melodic rock band or two and even an "oddball" fan for the death metal/growling lovers out there. While the trip to Atlanta is quite pricey each year, it's the number one thing many of us look forward to each year even though not every band on the lineup makes us jump up and pump our fists. Hell, we all get excited TEN months in advance when the opener is announced. Raintime, who the hell is Raintime? At least that was my initial reaction. Then I heard their debut. Needless to say I'll be going NUTS during Moot-Lie.
After you take into account the "pleasing the masses factor" (and the fact that Glenn has to like the band himself), you have the expense factor. One band that nobody mentions is Vanishing Point. Prog fans love them, power metal fans like them, and I haven't heard anybody say anything negative regarding their last masterpiece. However, they'll probably never play this festival. As mentioned by Glenn, the sheer cost of getting five band members, equipment, etc. from Australia would trump what any sponsor is willing/able to front. Same can be said for other bands. I doubt you see Concerto Moon play this festival anytime in the future. It's a shame, but I suppose it's the way it has to be.
Finally, you have the list of bands that can't seem to keep from cancelling shows. While I don't like Nevermore, they're clearly at the top of this list. Royal Hunt has a problem fulfilling scheduled dates, as does Nightwish. It's a shame, as I think a band like Royal Hunt is perfect for this festival and a US date is long overdue.
I totally understand the philosophy of "making someone into a headliner." While I enjoy Pagan's Mind, I'm not as much of a fan as others on this board. Similarly, I like Primal Fear, but I do think they're the second coming of Judas Priest (which isn't a bad thing per se)...they're just not a band I'm dying to see live. I'll watch their entire set. I'll go nuts during Angel in Black. I'll enjoy a number of other songs. In the end, however, there are bands I'd much prefer to see. Again, to each his own. The way I look at it is this: If he's "taking a chance" by making Pagan's Mind a 4-spot this year, maybe he'll do the same thing next year with Eternity X (reunion factor), Labyrinth (Return to Heaven Denied factor), or a Michael Kiske/Andre Matos solo set, all things I'd pay big money to see.
Lastly, there are still bands that have NOT played this festival that could/should headline: Helloween, Ayreon, Rhapsody, Within Temptation, Fates Warning, and Shadow Gallery are the first half-dozen that come to mind. There are others I'm sure. If one of those bands played, you'd have a sell out the day the tickets go on sale. Sure, not all are "feasible" (see Shadow Gallery), but you understand my point. There are still big drawing bands out there.
Nonetheless, due to a 2-spot band getting a solid hour, essentially there is little difference b/w a 2 and a 4. Thus, while I would like to see Virgin Steele close out Saturday night, I'll take the hour with a smile. Similarly, if I had the opportunity to see a band like Cloudscape, Machinae Supremacy, Tomorrow's Eve, or Poverty's No Crime get an hour of stage time in the US as a "2-spot", I'd be so happy that I'd consider sponsership. In essence, I'm saying that the order of the bands doesn't matter all that much, it's the excitement of seeing some bands play that otherwise would NEVER EVER tour, nevermind play a one-off show in the US. Essentially at the end of the day, the 4-spot band is playing two extra songs. Thus, the headliners themselves have never been a "make or break" factor in determining my attendance at this festival. For example, seeing Vision Divine for an hour last year was worth the entire trip, even though I'm not the biggest fan in the world of Jorn or his choice of setlist last year.
Everyone has a right to complain. I've made posts on this board that have been deleted (expressing a negative opinion) and I think that's a shame, but I don't run this joint. When the smoke clears, I'll be there each year with Gold Badge in hand, waiting to shop, hang out, and bang my head. You're guaranteed AT LEAST a handful of bands each year that you're going to love. Hell, you may not love all of them going into the fest, but might leave the show becoming a gigantic fan. Whoever thought I'd enjoy Freak Kitchen? Not I.
Hey at the very least, it beats work/school/the monotony of life in America.
Meanmistreator
Granada Porch Crew
I really don't mean this to be directly arguementative over the point you are making, which I understand - but I just don't see the bitching people keep mentioning this year. I know last year there was some groaning over Evergrey headlining from the return factor, and then Nevermore has a style that kindof has real love em or hate em appeal, and then Jorn got kindof a 'does he really have the credibility to headline' attitude. But this year...all I've seen is YES YES YES SWEET SWEET SWEET and a whole lot of this dude. I mean, Glenn could book a pretty sure bet headliner for Sat like Symphony X or Angra, both of whom I would imagine would be available if needed or chosen, and this would be largely hailed as the best lineup since PPIII.
I don't think returning headliners is really that big a deal. This isn't exactly the kind of genre where you see a huge band once and have had your fill. Even in regard to bands touring the US more often, I mean do you really want to watch Symphony X play 5 songs on a second stage, with a shit ass sound system that breaks halfway through between sets by screamy and surley - and have that be the entirety of your experience with them live? I want to see them kicking ass for 1.5 hours playing classics to a crowd that actually appreciates the music! When it comes to Progpower, many of the bigger bands who have already headlined still have just as much draw power for me as they did the first time around. If Gamma Ray goes, I go.
Plus there are so many creative things you can do with return headliners - what with all the side projects and concept albums abound. With a little imagination you can turn a performance from a return headliner into somthing you could not see anywhere else.
People definitely should not bitch so much about bands in the lower 6 slots not necessarily being well known - and I think it is good this fest is allowing some of those lesser known bands a chance to really establish themselves through a kick ass performance. Announcements are made in PLENTY of time to familiarize yourself with the years lesser known bands if need be (ie for fans like me with fairly selective taste in the genre who prefer going into a show knowing the tunes rather than hearing them for the first time). Usually, even if you know NONE of the bottom 6, there are likely going to be at least 2 that end up really wowing you. And I think the top 4 can pretty much have the drawing power if the #2's are decently well known and the #1's are pretty universally liked.
It's hard to say a fest that just keeps on selling out is really in any sort of trouble. Worst case scenario you can always tweak the format a wee bit - which we already see being done in the extended Showcase which is giving people all the more incentive to go. Plus the whole social aspect that has grown to be part of the fest. It's all good
I agree with most of what’s been said, but only to a point. I think that every year we fall into this “trap”, and end up having similar conversations. While the talks keep us busy, I really think the problem isn't that big. The show has grown so much since PPII, that it’s really amazing. But the forum too has grown, but maybe more. And we all know what more opinions bring. LOL. I have limited myself to a very “narrow” window of music, and if I don’t see that it’s being represented at the show, then I tend to want to speak out. I’ve been to five shows, and spent my money (as have others), so I voice my opinion from time to time. What I always forget, is how great the shows are regardless of who’s playing. I almost didn’t go last year because I didn’t like the mix. I really only went for Evergrey (which I’ve seen 3 times), and Jorn. It turned out to be the best show yet, and for many reasons other then the actual band performances. I hung out with more people then ever. The bands were completely accessible,
and I took sooo many pictures, it was incredible. But, this time of year, I tend to forget that. There are many bands that could play in the coming years, I probably have not heard of some of them yet. Not to mention all the returners each year. Which I don’t mind at all. I wouldn’t mind seeing Cloudscape, Dead Soul Tribe, At Vance, Dionysus, Land Fear, Astral Doors, Carnivora, Anubis Gate, Sun Caged, Enchant, After Forever, Within Temptation, and many more then I can remember right now.
Every year I find at least one new band that I didn’t know about, but usually more. If you mix that with some of the other names that are always thrown out there, then we may be OK. If nothing else, I like to shop the vendors half the time anyhow.
Palabra de Dios
Heavy Metal Weatherman
I wouldn't have exactly said that Jorn was a concrete headliner in the sense that Gamma Ray and Blind Guardian were; however, it worked. The challenge for this type of festival I think is not in finding solid headliners to round everything up (I mean, that is the challenge NOW), but to find a cohesive lineup that makes sense. Changing the format would be a bit much; adding doom, death, or black metal bands into the picture would kind of detract from the title of "Prog Power."
MFTE Cam
Member
What about venturing into the doom metal regions? Doom (not stoner, not sludge...but freakin DOOM!) has always been a catagory all metalheads have loved - from those into thrash or death or power or prog or what-have-you. As headliners, Candlemass or Trouble will draw a huge power metal crowd, and perhaps some of the prog. Solitude Aeturnus would definitely be a fit for a high support slot. There might be others, but these three are the only bands I can think of that would draw more then just a few people to the festival (since ProgPower is about, well... prog and power) - or would said bands be too 80-ish for the current?
Just a thought...
-Cam
Just a thought...
-Cam
I totally agree with what someone said, if you're going to complain about what is NOT on the bill, why don't you and a friend become sponsors?
BenMech
student of the d'eh
Co-signed. 2007 seems to be a big comeback year for melodic doom (as opposed to drone or stoner rock or death doom). Memory Garden, Trouble, Sabbath itself, Solitude Æturnus all releasing new albums (and probably other bands).
I have to disagree that Jorn "worked." I do conceed that Jorn was a pleasant choice for many people on the forum, and put on a show many already there enjoyed. But Jorn didn't do much to generate the interest of the general population. Especially since most interest in Jorn is derived from his participation in a multitude of projects, but he was to focus on his solo career.
I'm not a fan of Nevermore, but I think VII would have sold out at a fairly quick pace with them on the bill. I also think replacing them with another "big name" would have served as well. Jorn, while not harming the fest, wasn't able to repair the damage Nevermore did.
The fest still needs a headline quality band at the top. The problem isn't that there are none. Rather a problem arises if the US market doesn't recognize a headliner when it sees one.
Formerly known as Chris F5
Member
- Mar 12, 2003
- 1,430
- 10
- 38
Thats a lame argument. Like throwing in a sponsorship bid automatically means your band will be picked? It may very well help chances but thats about it.
Bear
Got Shred??
Yep I agree. I bet quite a few people sent in sponorship bids that wewre not even close to what G would book too, I know i have a few on my list that will probably never play but yeah at least we can throw it out there with hope.
Bear
No, it doesn't. I'm on that boat right now. But it's actually worth a shot, wouldn't you agree?
The Invisible Guest
Member
I hate the idea of having to pay up to get a band you want to see added to the bill, but like anything in business .. money talks.
Britt
General Zod
Ruler of Australia
Agreed. Nevermore would have brought people to ProgPower who have never been to ProgPower. Jorn simply doesn't have that kind of drawing power.
I'm curious to hear, who would you use as an example, of a band who should be able to headline this festival, but can't soley because of the ignorance of the U.S. market.
Zod
rockyracoon
...
Jorn tried to butter 20 pieces of toast with 1 pad of butter. He ended up spreading himself way too thin. Too many people wanted to see too much material touched on, and I believe Jorn may have suffered a bit in regards to crowd reaction because of it.
Andy Laudano
Member
Here's something that hasn't been brought up yet in regards to return bands. How many times do you go see your favorite bands? For some of the older fans, how many times have you seen Aerosmith? Maiden? Metallica? Or whatever your favorite band is? (Glenn, how many times have you seen Jimmy Buffet?) Odds are you've seen them multiple times and the next chance you get to see them you'll probably go again. No one ever says "My Favorite Band, seen them once, no need to see them again." (unless they can't afford to or their favorite band sucked live but those are rare exceptions). So if you're a huge Edguy fan (for example) and you seen them headline ProgPower once before a few years ago and since that time they've put out a few more albums that you've really enjoyed, why wouldn't you be excited to see them headline again? Plus you'll get to see a few other bands you love that same weekend and likely discover a few new bands that will become favorites. Where's the problem?
I don't see the problem with having return headliners as long as they're at the top of their genre and still putting out new material - Gamma Ray, Blind Guardian, Edguy, Symphony X, Evergrey, etc. And don't forget that every ProgPower is someone's first. Every year more and more people are discovering this type of music. Why shouldn't they have the chance to see some of those killer bands as well?
I also don't think the short regional "tours" hurt the draw of the festival either. For example someone living in Minnesota could have seen Epica last year, but only at ProgPower could they have seen Epica, Evergrey, Jorn, Mercenary, Thunderstone, Freak Kitchen, Vision Divine, ect. in one weekend!
ProgPower is more than just a concert, it's a weekend of great music, cool people, killer parties and CD shopping.
I don't see the problem with having return headliners as long as they're at the top of their genre and still putting out new material - Gamma Ray, Blind Guardian, Edguy, Symphony X, Evergrey, etc. And don't forget that every ProgPower is someone's first. Every year more and more people are discovering this type of music. Why shouldn't they have the chance to see some of those killer bands as well?
I also don't think the short regional "tours" hurt the draw of the festival either. For example someone living in Minnesota could have seen Epica last year, but only at ProgPower could they have seen Epica, Evergrey, Jorn, Mercenary, Thunderstone, Freak Kitchen, Vision Divine, ect. in one weekend!
ProgPower is more than just a concert, it's a weekend of great music, cool people, killer parties and CD shopping.
livingwithwolves
Member
- Aug 16, 2006
- 299
- 0
- 16
You nailed it on the head. He was probably only trying to appease the largest demographic of his long time audience which wanted to hear "everything" and in doing so left out some of his best material. Some of his choices made me wonder "why is he playing that" but i still was completely satisfied in getting to see Jorn Lande peform in the USA. I'd like to thank Glenn for bringing Jorn to the USA and making him the headliner. And i'm probably the only one from this message board who feels that way as most people here really like to blame Jorn for this last festival not selling out a few more days than others, LOL.
