The Ron Paul appreciation thread!

I'll agree that social medicine has an appealing side, and I'm not against it on a basic level. Health care for everyone including those who truly cannot provide for themselves seems like a very altruistic social endeavor. But call me dubious in that it'll work under a corrupted scenario, or a US government as disastrous as the present one.

In any case you won't hear ANY GOP candidate cheering about social medicine, or social anything for that matter. It would be political suicide, now that they're all trying to run against King Obama.
 
AD Chaos, none of what you said is worth responding too. All you're doing is chucking buzzwords in with fear-mongering towards socialism (which doesn't exist anywhere. Seriosuly, have you been to a highly socialized democratic state? Ever? Ever lived in one? It's nothing like the GOP or libertarians would like you to believe).

If you're so against taxpayer money going towards health care, then how do you explain the fact that the US currently spends more per capita on health care than any other developed country, including "socialist" Sweden? And arguments about the care being worse are pretty shit at this point - you can always pay more for better service if you're that desperate, and it's not like the US has the best health care in the world to begin with.
 
In the post above yours I said that I'm not against health care. A highly socialized democratic state is not the US, so I don't see the point in making such a comparison. IMO that system is bound to work much better on a different scale as I said. When you have a smaller, non corrupt and fiscally responsible state, I can see high taxes making good sense. When you have an over-sized bureaucracy doing reckless spending as if there was no tomorrow, however, I don't consider it baseless fear mongering.
The fact that you still have a functioning democracy or economy doesn't mean that is going to remain regardless how much it gets abused.. unless you would think things have not seriously deteriorated... I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anything, in fact I'm sure you know way more about the situation over there than I do ;) I just don't quite get the somewhat defeating posture.
 
A private health system is pricier no doubt, but the quality and service is also much better.

The quality and service is not better at all. Most of the top 30 countries as ranked by WHO for quality of care have a subsidized or national health service. You've obviously never experienced the care in America compared to any country in Western Europe.

As I've stated before, not enough doctors. A nationalized health service can freely share doctors and give everyone access to the same care. This is REALLY important because health care is specialized, and one highly trained surgeon could cover an entire county for a certain type of surgery. Now introduce competition and the highly trained surgeon covers a third of what he used to cover thanks to the other 3 health care providers, yet they don't have anyone to fill his place because he is so specialized. People will need to change health cover to access the surgeon for the surgery they need. There is no competition, because there is only one surgeon in the area and the company with that surgeon can charge whatever they want.

There would be competition and a free market if there were hundreds of highly trained medical professionals running around looking for jobs that don't mind being a waste of space half the time because the hospital down the road is cheaper and there aren't enough patients to see.

The first half of your post... well if that's how ya see it...
 
The quality and service is not better at all. Most of the top 30 countries as ranked by WHO for quality of care have a subsidized or national health service. You've obviously never experienced the care in America compared to any country in Western Europe.

I haven't said I have experienced health care in America. I was talking more from personal experience in that when you pay for a doctor you can get better attention and more focused care, which is not to say you're going to necessarily get a more qualified or competent professional, anyway.

I would think things are not going very well over there when you purportedly have an all-time high (as in record breaking) of people on food stamps and welfare, but again, as US residents I'm sure you know more than me on those subjects.
 
Having lived in both countries and 2 others with subsidized/national health, the subsidized/national health is clearly better, even better than private care because it has more resources to pool.

In the UK if I break a bone, I go to hospital, I get it treated, then I go home.

In the USA I break a bone, I go to hospital, I get turned away because my insurance doesn't cover this hospital, so I go to another hospital and get the treatment, then I get dropped by my insurance company, because why insure unhealthy people? Then I pay up with my savings, but I haven't made any money while I've been injured, so I'm broke.
 
I'm glad he's running. I disagree on lots of things including healthcare (we're 37 in healthcare behind a bunch of "socialists" despite spending the largest % of GDP) but I think he's good for the process and good for calling conservatives on the fallacious notion of a "small government" that spends 6 times more on defense than any other country.

Still, I think it's important to question the applicability of the free market concept to a field that requires 10+ years and $100k-$400K of education to practice. Not to mention pharma companies are only interested in production of high yield products (that cost millions to develop and get through trials). Functionally, to create a "free" healthcare market you would have to remove medical licensure and the FDA. It's hard to imagine the positives of the market that would create.
 
I also have to pick fault with his education policy, the page on his website is almost non-existent. The thought of applying the free market economy to education is possibly even more ridiculous, unfair and impractical than applying it to health care.

It really doesn't matter that Ron Paul is a man of his word when his word is unfounded, untested, idealistic drivel. You cannot have a blanket policy of government withdrawal from all public sectors and expect it to work across the field. I cannot believe how little attention Ron Paul pays to some areas of his policy. It obviously doesn't matter to the people that support him because all you here is LOWER TAXES WITHDRAW TROOPS, which is all well and good, but does not make up a presidential campaign.
 
Let me clarify once again that I'm not an American citizen. If you get lower taxes or not, it doesn't affect me personally in the least, really. So no, I'm not looking forward to lowered taxes, or weed legalization, or anything of the like.
It affects YOU (assuming you, the reader of this thread, are a resident of the US).

This whole page has derided onto specifics that don't really matter so much in the big picture, I think. It's pretty eloquent however as to how much of the same you see happening all over the internet (and I'm sure also with people thinking about who to vote for, everywhere in the US). Does Ron Paul have how many years, is his policy on the X or Y issue this and that, would it develop maybe like this or that, his personal opinion is this, does he photograph good, is his family good looking, etc (yes, those last two are in fact defining criteria for LOTS of voters, believe it or not).

Don't get me wrong- it's the sane thing to make an informed decision and question policies and such of course, and to some extent most are quite valid concerns, but the thing is you are NEVER going to find a candidate that is tailor-made for your specific, individual opinions/likes on every single matter.

What should matter really is the fact that out of the 4 presidential candidates on the front run (Obama, Romney, Santorum and Paul) it seems like RP is the only one worried about protecting your freedom, the only one willing to uphold the Constitution above his personal opinion and belief, and the only one sponsored by people instead of corporations. That's not some made-up propaganda- that's (unless I'm horribly misinformed) a fact. And an important one at that, I would think.

Out of the other candidates, Jon Huntsman strikes me also as someone who could be fiscally responsible in the office, and he seems even more fluent than Paul in his speech. But he doesn't seem to stand a chance in the race (at least not at this point).


Anyway, my opinion.
 
Health care and education are specifics that do not matter? Of course there will never be a candidate that is perfect, but I happen to think that health, education and welfare are very important, and completely overlooked.

As I said, who cares if he's honest when his policies are bullshit? He's protecting the freedom of those who are already free, those that don't need help.
 
Right, and for the record, RP's lack of corporate donors is as much or more of a statement on his viability as it is on his integrity. I'm not knocking him for that but if by some miracle he got the nomination his donation numbers would look identical to any other Republican nominee. It's not as though his stance on deregulation and regressive taxation are unpopular with corporations.
 
For the whole election business, it's worth considering this:

Out of the 10 US presidents who have been elected to the position by the US public since the second world war, only 2 have subsequently been ousted from said position by public vote at the end of their first term in office
 
No offense Joematthews, but you're talking up a huge game when you clearly don't know shit about Ron Paul.

This.

I am still surprised that people still have skepticism over letting the unregulated free market control various social services rather than have the federal government hold it in monopoly. People that would rather have socialism and government handouts and pay high premiums for such government services really need to zip it.

To the socialist supporters who thing that Ron Paul getting rid of Obamacare and placing medicine back to the free market would allow for some people to go without health care have no clue about anything regarding him. I'm not going to explain his system, but in short, yes everyone will be taken care of, or rather he would be bringing one reform at a time to fix the troubled medical system. If you don't know his ideas for reforms other than cutting social medicine, go look it up and stop being an anti-capitalist.

You Europeans can be Socialist all you want, here in 'Muricuh", we are capitalists, get over it. Just because you don't understand how our system works doesn't mean that yours is any better. Our economy started going down the shitter the more socialist we have become. At the end of the day, I firmly believe that I shouldn't have to forfeit my income to the government to pay someone else's medical, and I believe that the government should not have a monopoly on medicine. We pay way too much for treatment because the fed had NO competition. I also believe that I don't have to forfeit my income to public schools especially if I wish to opt out. I would rather pay the school I want my children or myself to attend myself, rather than pay the government to provide me a public school system I cannot choose. Around here every school has its own curriculum, some public schools have better/more programs especially relating to college, so by default some public school provide less of an opportunity for students in terms of what colleges will be available to them. The sad thing is, in large cities like where I live, there can be two high schools of different districts withing a mile of each other, in my case, our designated school district ranks one of the lowest in the state across the state and has last time I checked no extra curricular college classes. Across the street, (literally) the neighboring district has one of the highest scores in the state and some of the best college prep courses as well as many extra curricular college classes. But you can't go there because we have a designated district that we have to go to, that we are forced to pay to the government and we don't have the right to opt out and go to a private school, or you can go to a private school but you still have to pay for public school even though you aren't attending. To top it all off you still have to pay for public schools even if you don't have kids that are going to school, how fair is that, my income is being taken away from me to pay for some other kid's tuition, who may or may not even be going to that public school. Our state claims that they pay school based on attendance, however, the tax or budget that they pass every year is a flat rate so if less kids go to public schools, then, it goes to other services (Welfare, SS etc) and unfortunately particularly where I live, the large majority of people on welfare/food stamps, are people who are permanently unemployed and not looking for a job, mooching off the system, because they make more sitting on their asses and getting welfare checks than if they actually got a job. So again, my hard earned paycheck is being robbed from me so that some lazy cocksucker who refuses to get a job can get a free handout and not have to work. Again how fucking fair is that?

I am not for any on person being denied healthcare if they do not have health insurance or their insurance turns them down, that is pure wrong, but socialized medicine is not the answer. If you knew more on Dr. Paul's stance on healthcare reforms, you would know that he wants everyone to have healthcare and never be denied, but he (like me) does not want the medical expenses to be on taxpayer dollar.

The whole previous page in this thread is full of false know-it-alls that need to do a little bit more research on Dr. Paul.
 
I am still surprised that people still have skepticism over letting the unregulated free market control various social services rather than have the federal government hold it in monopoly. People that would rather have socialism and government handouts and pay high premiums for such government services really need to zip it.

Why should they zip it? It works out fantastically in other countries, and there's never been an example of it working in the unregulated free market (something that doesn't exist and won't exist as long as you, I, or any of our children or their children will live).


To the socialist supporters who thing that Ron Paul getting rid of Obamacare and placing medicine back to the free market would allow for some people to go without health care have no clue about anything regarding him. I'm not going to explain his system, but in short, yes everyone will be taken care of, or rather he would be bringing one reform at a time to fix the troubled medical system. If you don't know his ideas for reforms other than cutting social medicine, go look it up and stop being an anti-capitalist.

If we have no clue about anything regarding him, why not correct our mis-interpretations of his policy (which many in this thread have stated they pulled straight from his website, not out of their asses) instead of just telling us we're wrong? Be productive, not a condescending dick.


You Europeans can be Socialist all you want, here in 'Muricuh", we are capitalists, get over it. Just because you don't understand how our system works doesn't mean that yours is any better. Obviously our economy started going down the shittier the more socialist we have become.

Just because they don't understand how our system works? Our system doesn't work - that's the problem. Saying that our economy started going down the "shittier" based on us becoming "more socialist" is GROSS misunderstanding of both micro- and macroeconomics. Guess which countries right now don't have economies in the shitter? It's those socialist Europeans. The more right-wing their economic policies, the worse off they're doing.


The whole previous page in this thread is full of false know-it-alls that need to do a little bit more research on Dr. Paul.

Again, help them understand instead of just making blanket statements about their ignorance. Your entire post is full of condescending, fear-mongered, douchebag remarks about "socialist Europe" and how "we" are somehow different and better for being so different and how their mild misunderstandings of our incredibly convoluted system somehow invalidate any claims or opinions they have that differ from your own.
 
I am still surprised that people still have skepticism over letting the unregulated free market control various social services rather than have the federal government hold it in monopoly. People that would rather have socialism and government handouts and pay high premiums for such government services really need to zip it.

People are skeptical because there are no demonstrable examples of the free market functioning well for social services while there are current examples of socialized medicine (which isn't socialism BTW) and education working better than our current system. Social programs and capitalism can and do exist simultaneously. Capitalism doesn't actually require a completely free market and every major restriction on the market's freedom has been a direct reaction to abuses by businesses (not to imply that all of the restrictions are for the best OC). The other thing is that if you've actually been to a country with socialized medicine you'll note that there are still strong private medical practices available to people with the money to "upgrade." There is no monopoly. Besides the fact that Obamacare is in no way socialized medicine (IMO it's sort of a worst of both worlds with a couple of good ideas and some really terrible ones).

None of that means that RP's position is wrong or won't work but it certainly explains skepticism.

Also, taking the position that people with different opinions "need to zip it" is childish.
 
Guess which countries right now don't have economies in the shitter? It's those socialist Europeans. The more right-wing their economic policies, the worse off they're doing.

Actually, I'll correct you: Communist China has the most thriving capitalist economy.
(I am of course not advocating for that)
 
Since you edited greatly before my last post...

...where I live, the large majority of people on welfare/food stamps, are people who are permanently unemployed and not looking for a job, mooching off the system, because they make more sitting on their asses and getting welfare checks than if they actually got a job. So again, my hard earned paycheck is being robbed from me so that some lazy cocksucker who refuses to get a job can get a free handout and not have to work. Again how fucking fair is that?

I am not for any on person being denied healthcare if they do not have health insurance or their insurance turns them down, that is pure wrong, but socialized medicine is not the answer. If you knew more on Dr. Paul's stance on healthcare reforms, you would know that he wants everyone to have healthcare and never be denied, but he (like me) does not want the medical expenses to be on taxpayer dollar.

First of all, really? Your paycheck is being robbed? Don't you live at home still? Don't your parents claim you as a dependent? I'm not saying that being young and not fully on your own invalidates your opinion, but I will say that lacking any kind of real-world experience with paying for food, clothing, utilities, mortgage/rent, etc... really makes it hard to take your so passionate argument seriously. It seems to me that the vast majority of people in favor of these sort of "by your own bootstrap" policies are incredibly coddled and sheltered.

If you're not for any person being denied healthcare, but you don't want the taxpayers to foot the bill, then who the fuck do you actually expect to pay for it? Either you want them to be SOL or you want them to be paid for by taxpayer money - I have no problem with you taking either side of that argument, but I do have a huge problem with you trying to appear genuine and compassionate while clearly supporting a policy that is anything but. How fucking fair is that?