This HAS to be a joke

[Orion Crystal Ice]

Haha... For some reason that was the PERFECT way to end your post!

I kinda thought so too.. but yknow, I don't really like any of those bands at all, except for Soul Embraced a little...Especially not Norma Jean, although those interested in noise/hard/everything-core would love them. I'd recommend Extol and Lengsel.......to pretty much everybody. Undecieved and Solace albums, respectively. Really great stuff - the Lengsel CD will haunt you.

 

[Adam90125]

Wow, this is a great thread, and it has got me really thinking. Im not entirley sure about my position on religion in general, it is difficult to comprehend a being greater than everything you know, but I doubt mankind and the world appeared by chance. Eitherway, I'm here now so I'll enjoy my life and not worry about it too much. :Spin:
Most christians I know are incredibly tight minded and refuse to accept any other point of veiw save their own. Still, I don't know that many Christians.

 

[J.]

Wow, I'm so surprised that this thread has not de-generated into a war by now. It would take to long to reply to every post, so I'll just lump them together and try to reply.

About th"fact" that Christians are always shoving their beliefs down your throat. I highly doubt this. Of course, I live in Houston, so it may not be as frequent as in other states or countries, but I think I've had front door visits from about 5 people just wanting to hand out brochures and maybe talk a little bit about God. And probably 2 or 3 of those visits were from Jehovah Witnesses, who, along with Mormons, are not really considered Christians in the traditional sense. They are each their own religion.

Anyway, I'm now 25 years old, and I'd hardly call 5 visits "shoving it in my face". Other than front door visits, I've never experienced nor really seen anyone trying to push their beliefs onto another person.

And the funny thing is, most atheists or agnostics will try to "shove" their beliefs onto other people just as much as Christians apparently do. Yet, no one complains about them. This I find very hypocritical.

About Christians closing their mind to "outside" influences. I can't speak for everyone, but I am glad to hear an atheistic/agnostic view on things. THe more knowledge one has, the more chance he has to finding Truth.

But again, this point has to made from the viewpoint of the atheist as well. Can you (an atheist) honestly tell me you don't "close your mind" when directly confronted with a CHristian trying to make a point? Hell, even some people on this thread have said they don't listen and just zone out.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the whole "close-minded on religion" thing is a two way street. It goes both ways. Both sides are equally guilty of ignoring any input the other may have. And that is where the system breaks down and turns into a finger pointing match.

 

[Stoner Rock Chick]

Religion is not for weak, although it can be. It can also be said it's for the strong, because certainly it takes something to believe in what you cannot see and what other persecute you for.

And to those who said believeing in God was crazy - believeing in Satan is just as silly/crazy.

Personally, there are great metal bands that happen to have Christian players (Place of Skulls, Life Beyond) and these people are very cool, do not shove anything down your throat. I am not religious but I am very spiritual - there is a BIG difference. Here's the kicker, many people have been at very low points in there lives, and relied on something to get them out - most of them a higher power of some point.


Here's what I find the most hypocritical (and I may get jumped on for this). Black Metalers who say they believe in Satan and have this overwhelming urge to shove their religious beliefs (because that is what they are) down your throat, or call you a wimp if you believe in God. I ask you, what is wimpier? A blind belief in the devil and racism or a soulful belief in God wherein the person is peaceful and not hateful?

Not meaning to tarnish all BM folks as some don't do this, but in my travels about the net, I've met many who will not only crush you down for any belief that doesn't fit their poser ones, but crush down all forms of music that doesn't conform to BM.

 

[Bryant]

Hmmm.... this has turned into quite a thread. >~

I was partially raised by my grandmother who is a "Holiness" Christian (a member of an Assembly of God church) where they speak in tongues etc. These people are pretty hard core to some, but as I grew out of childhood I lost interest in church. However, I would go to church (as an adult) with "Grannie" on special occasions like her birthday etc. because it made her happy. I have really long hair and it's quite easy to see that I'm just not like "them" but at that church I "never" felt stared at or looked down upon. The old ladies would come up to me and say things like "your hair is so pretty. I wish mine was curly like that" etc. Don't get me wrong, all of them wanted me to go to the front of the church after the service and get "saved" but they didn't put much pressure on me.
Had I went to a "typical" sheep church like a large Baptist one, with my long hair and cigarrette breath you could bet I would have felt eyes all over me. That's not to say Baptists aren't good Christians or anything, but from growing up around Grannie, I do know what a good Christian should be. It is their job as Christians to offer non-believers the path to "salvation" but it is not their job to judge anyone, nor to be flat out annoying. Christian simply means Christ-like and a good Christian should be meek and humble, not over-bearing and judgemental.

Anytime you have to deal with a "Christian" that acts other than that, remind them of what I just said.

As far as Christian bands, I really don't know that many, though I probably should look into it more. The only Christian CD I have is a self-titled disc called "Halo." It sounds a little like 80's Kiss with keyboards, but with great songwriting. I think it came out in the early 90's or something though.
As far as my personal beliefs... I am a spiritual person. I can't put a particular "name" on a God I believe in, but definitely don't agree with my spirituality as being a weakness. I do believe that we do in fact have "souls" and that is what seperates us from all other life forms here on earth. Something that is as beautiful and unique as our humanity and our essence that makes us who we are does not end with physical death.


Bryant

 

[speed]

God is Dead.

Myth is the central theme to Christianity, Islam, and Judaism- and such myth's no longer work in todays world. Can one imagine if Christ or Muhammed started in today's world? Both would be locked up by the State as insane- and would be pumped full of drugs. Both would upset the order of the world- and that can just not be had by our society.

Lets face it- these religions just do not work in todays world- maybe the moral laws they teach are still applicable to todays world- yet the religious myth and supposed religious truth of these religions is ridiculous.

so, I think this is what be reconciled- myth- with the moral teachings of the either three religions- something must be done soon in these religions- or they will become more and more ridiculous.

Oddly though- anyone else notice that Zen Buddhism is quite modern, and much of Taoism and non-thervadian buddhism can be quite modern with really few changes- the myths really are just stories of personal enlightenment- not the old and no longer relevant stories of god acting through humans- or miracles etc of Judeo Christian religions.

Well those are my thoughts on religion.

 

[Orion Crystal Ice]

God is Dead.

Myth is the central theme to Christianity, Islam, and Judaism- and such myth's no longer work in todays world. Can one imagine if Christ or Muhammed started in today's world? Both would be locked up by the State as insane- and would be pumped full of drugs. Both would upset the order of the world- and that can just not be had by our society.

Lets face it- these religions just do not work in todays world- maybe the moral laws they teach are still applicable to todays world- yet the religious myth and supposed religious truth of these religions is ridiculous.

so, I think this is what be reconciled- myth- with the moral teachings of the either three religions- something must be done soon in these religions- or they will become more and more ridiculous.

Oddly though- anyone else notice that Zen Buddhism is quite modern, and much of Taoism and non-thervadian buddhism can be quite modern with really few changes- the myths really are just stories of personal enlightenment- not the old and no longer relevant stories of god acting through humans- or miracles etc of Judeo Christian religions.

Well those are my thoughts on religion.

Well, I somewhat understand what you are trying to say (I think) but remember that there is not a great difference in a way between our culture now and that of Jesus' time... - remember, he was persecuted back then no less then he would be now. He did upset the "order" of the world, and his message still upsets the "order" of the world.. this is why it is, in actuality, strikingly relevant, because we were shown that we live backwards, and he was right, and we didn't and still don't wanna hear of it. How striking that even our actions and thoughts themselves even without knowledge of him prove his word. Also, keep in mind that because something does not seem to work or is not logical within society's standards, doesn't make it wrong or irrelevant........otherwise we'd all be puppets of Big Brother and co and wouldn't be listening to heavy metal, eh? New Testament Scripture prophecied about many elements of society concerning it's backwardness, and downfall, and just about all those can be found as accurate now in the world of today. And Christ made a point of capping these kind of things off with this: "You will be hated because of my name."
Because of this small example alone I cannot agree that the message of Christ is irrelevant today... - perhaps people don't care about it, want to stay ignorant of it, or have labelled it "out of style", but it surely is not in itself irrelevant. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.".... God is dead only in the wishes of men.

 

[speed]

True the central messagea of jesus are eternal- it is a wonderful message- yet its means of getting to us through miracles- after the fact scriptures, the whole myth of jesus from his resurrection etc- is just no longer plausible- or relevant to todays world- two thousand years ago people could believe such acts as miracles, messiah's, and a resurrection etc- the world was still very much steeped in mystery. Today, such reports of such acts- meet with skepticism- and usually the person claiming such acts- is psychologically disturbed. Thus, today faith is so important, faith in the most illogical, obsolete, and ancient of religions is the only way one can accept that jesus is the son of God etc.

Anyway, I actually pretty much agree with most of what you said Orion- many of the same problems with society and humanity are universal and eternal- and were addressed by Jesus.

I think the big brother comment is the most interesting- I have always believed most of all that jesus was a political rebel- a man seeking freedom- religious and otherwise- from the corruption and injustice of the Roman State- now I have always thought the biggest problem- and hypocrisy of Christianity- was how Christianity was molded into a exact copy of the Roman state when Constantine made it the state religion- it seems from this point forward- Christianity gained in popularity- but lost its message. Instead of changing the world- churches started to preach about preserving the status quo, even the injustices of the political states - and churches still do this. Even protestant churches are guilty of the same crime- the lutherans would be the best example.

Well those are my two cents worth.

 

[Orion Crystal Ice]

True the central messagea of jesus are eternal- it is a wonderful message- yet its means of getting to us through miracles- after the fact scriptures, the whole myth of jesus from his resurrection etc- is just no longer plausible- or relevant to todays world- two thousand years ago people could believe such acts as miracles, messiah's, and a resurrection etc- the world was still very much steeped in mystery. Today, such reports of such acts- meet with skepticism- and usually the person claiming such acts- is psychologically disturbed. Thus, today faith is so important, faith in the most illogical, obsolete, and ancient of religions is the only way one can accept that jesus is the son of God etc.

Anyway, I actually pretty much agree with most of what you said Orion- many of the same problems with society and humanity are universal and eternal- and were addressed by Jesus.

I think the big brother comment is the most interesting- I have always believed most of all that jesus was a political rebel- a man seeking freedom- religious and otherwise- from the corruption and injustice of the Roman State- now I have always thought the biggest problem- and hypocrisy of Christianity- was how Christianity was molded into a exact copy of the Roman state when Constantine made it the state religion- it seems from this point forward- Christianity gained in popularity- but lost its message. Instead of changing the world- churches started to preach about preserving the status quo, even the injustices of the political states - and churches still do this. Even protestant churches are guilty of the same crime- the lutherans would be the best example.

Well those are my two cents worth.

Now I understand.

The thought of the resurrection, his divinity etc being myth...while it could be an interesting thought to ponder over for some I believe it's also a bit strange....for example, why would a man this important, who did what he did, lie? Why would these amazing things he did actually be all false? And if he did lie, what would he have gained for it since he knew he was to be crucified? How and why in that case would it make sense to trust one who came and told us some of the biggest truths, along with one of the biggest lies? Because his ministry was very very centered on the teaching that he was the Savior. To accept all the important parts under and besides that is a bit of a case of missing the point I would say.......so then the pondering man on this issue must conclude one of two things:

1. Jesus was exactly who he said he was, and spoke every word in truth.
2. Jesus was a liar, and a lunatic.

As you have pointed out, people claiming knowledge, experience - and even craft, of supernatural things, are known as psychologically ill today. It can also be noted, however, that those who truly follow the word of God are seen as fools, sheep, etc, and are shunned while the humanist society drifts and wilts away amongst it's own faux rules and controlled chaos. So we have become the underdog - the faithful of the most important underdog ever - Jesus Christ. And who is usually correct in mind on this level...the master or the whipping boy? Even heavy metal is superb at conveying this kind of fighting spirit inside us... how odd it would be, if the most famous fighter - Jesus - by sheer accident stumbled upon the greatest message the world has ever known - and diluted it with his own madness, to boot. What sense would the rest of his message make then? Considering the way it benefits a man's soul..what then would we do with this new perception? The idea of Christ as a liar and lunatic seems to make no sense with everything about him.
So then, logically, I conclude that if we as Christians are indeed in worship of the perfect amalgam of insanity and genius, then we are a strange, strange bunch indeed - and we shall wait to see if this world's constant wars prove us wrong for once and for all.

 

[speed]

The sad part is- I think Christianity has been proven wrong for almost 2,000 years now- Christianity has been used to justify war- racism- sexism- slavery, just about every atrocity one can think of- through no fault of its creator- I suppose the morality of christ has been so diluted and twisted that it no longer has any meaning- how can it have any meaning when the Catholic church decides what Christian morality is every day- or baptist ministers decide war is sanctified on Christian grounds the list goes on and on-

In truth I understand that after jesus died- his brother james and the apostles carried on a way of life that Christ believed in- they shared all of their property- did not pay taxes to the Romans- nor paid much attention to the Jewish religious hierarchy- yet such a way of life takes dedication , suffering- and is just not fit for the mass of humanity- sadly it seems Christ was not fit for humanity- yet various forms of Christian religious orders and political states made Christ fit humanity.
On this note- I feel even the New Testament is a product of all that Jesus loathed and taught against- as there were such a number of compelling and interesting gospels of christ that were not chosen to make up the new testament- as church leaders didnt believe they fit the message the church was trying to make. I n fact I understand a few gospels were written in much the same way as the Buddhist Dhammapada- others did not mention miracles- others mentioned the role of women- others stated mary was not a virgin- the list goes on. So, as one can see- I feel even the selection of the holy books of the new testament was a political act- contrary to Christ.


Orion- Christianity is not the only religion that teaches compassion, suffering, morality, love of others and oneself etc- all religions pass on a similar message- Christianity's failures have been experienced by all religions- yet maybe never in such a direct blasphemous contradiction. Thus, even if Christianity fails( or in my view has failed)- other religions teaching the same core principles will still be around.

 

[Orion Crystal Ice]

The sad part is- I think Christianity has been proven wrong for almost 2,000 years now- Christianity has been used to justify war- racism- sexism- slavery, just about every atrocity one can think of- through no fault of its creator- I suppose the morality of christ has been so diluted and twisted that it no longer has any meaning- how can it have any meaning when the Catholic church decides what Christian morality is every day- or baptist ministers decide war is sanctified on Christian grounds the list goes on and on-

In truth I understand that after jesus died- his brother james and the apostles carried on a way of life that Christ believed in- they shared all of their property- did not pay taxes to the Romans- nor paid much attention to the Jewish religious hierarchy- yet such a way of life takes dedication , suffering- and is just not fit for the mass of humanity- sadly it seems Christ was not fit for humanity- yet various forms of Christian religious orders and political states made Christ fit humanity.
On this note- I feel even the New Testament is a product of all that Jesus loathed and taught against- as there were such a number of compelling and interesting gospels of christ that were not chosen to make up the new testament- as church leaders didnt believe they fit the message the church was trying to make. I n fact I understand a few gospels were written in much the same way as the Buddhist Dhammapada- others did not mention miracles- others mentioned the role of women- others stated mary was not a virgin- the list goes on. So, as one can see- I feel even the selection of the holy books of the new testament was a political act- contrary to Christ.


Orion- Christianity is not the only religion that teaches compassion, suffering, morality, love of others and oneself etc- all religions pass on a similar message- Christianity's failures have been experienced by all religions- yet maybe never in such a direct blasphemous contradiction. Thus, even if Christianity fails( or in my view has failed)- other religions teaching the same core principles will still be around.

It is indeed sad and a disgrace when the words get twisted, however I don't see if as Christianity failing man... it is more like man failing Christianity...it is not Christianity that has twisted our view of religion, but rather religiosity that has twisted many people's view of Christianity. And Jesus was most definitely not in with humanity - being God, and teaching the things of God...it's very well known and elaborated on many times that man's carnal humanism and God's purpose and right path for man clash, as two sides of the coin (something else I talked a small bit about in another post). However, this does not necessarily mean we are fit or justified to give up on God and deem him not fit for us. Again as I mentioned that's why my kind of faith is referred to as a walk with God.. - a constant improvement, battle, and learning experience that helps make your soul more knowledgable and mature through it then anything could. And what good would life be without that kind of option to experience? Many people give up and even take their lives because they do not have that.

I agree there are parts of the testaments that are incomplete and such, however as I pointed out in a different post, my faith is centered squarely around the deity of Jesus Christ, and his teachings. He is the rock which I stand upon there, so to speak, and being the centerpiece of the entire Bible you could almost say I don't "need" the rest of the Bible. Many churches are erronous in proclaming it to be the full word of God, although God let it be tampered in whichever way for a reason - perhaps to help point people to Christ more - I have no reason to believe it's the perfect word of God. That is why if one is seeking enlightenment about Christ and things of God he will often get mixed up and feel spun around, because not only are the other books only secondary to the Gospels but some of them as you said are incomplete and this will lead the novice astray to say, "I have proved God does not exist, and if he does, he is a liar." out of complex error unknown to the seeker. Simply put, error is only worth so much to me if it is critical to the status of my salvation. But I do hold a great amount of spiritual/knowledge concerned worth in other books as well, such as Genesis, Romans, and Revelation.

You are correct in saying that many beliefs share a handful of the same virtues in their teaching, - which to me is another testament to a creator - but Christianity differs from other beliefs... while some prefer to pick and choose different (often contradicting) things from everywhere, as if spirituality is a game of buffet, Christianity says: this is right, and that is wrong. Jesus proclaimed, "I am the way, the truth, and the life.". This kind of idea is hard to swallow for the jaded critic or spiritualist, but the logical ideal - to speak in metaphorical terms - is to have one absolute sum for one math problem, and all other answers are thus wrong; there are only other answers very near to this sum, but still wrong by way of the 1 or 2 point difference. The various differences in belief in Christ and his teachings and belief in other religions are the boldest, brassiest, and most concrete of all (so much that it's offensive to some), and for the spiritual mathematician who believes Christ is not the correct sum (to revisit the metaphor), and that there is no correct sum, he will also have a hard time proving it is not the nearest to the correct sum out of all.

 

[Tebus]

There were a bunch of posts I was going to reply to, but Orion said my words exactly every time. But there are a couple more things I wanted to mention. (actually quite a few)

Christianity gets a lot of criticism about that fact that many wars have been fought over it. And this is certainly justified criticism. speed mentioned "how can it have any meaning when the Catholic church decides what Christian morality is every day- or baptist ministers decide war is sanctified on Christian grounds the list goes on and on-". I agree that many preechers and churches are very far from the mark. They use Christianity from there own selfish gains, which is actually precisely the opposite of what Christianity is supposed to be about. It has unfortunately become a tool for some people's selfish needs. There is no doubt that this part of Christiany is flawed. But it is more the church being flawed than the religion itself. And given all of the criticisms I have read, it seems that a great number of them can be acredited to the church's percistent snobbish attempts at making their church be the only way to salvation, which is pure blasphemy.

All of these actions are what caused me to turn away from the church, and I decided to see what Christianity is about for myself by looking at the undistorted messages of the Bible. And as Orion said, I was completely amazed at how closely the messages in the Bible pertained to my life. Everything makes so much sense. All of my feelings are regardless of whether or not Jesus physically rose from the dead, or whether or not there is a heaven or hell, or whether or not there is a divine being constantly watching over us. What I have really come to appreciate are the messages of Jesus and the Bible. The way they describe how to deal with many situations and all of the corruptness and selfishness in the world are feelings that I have had for many years. So i was, needless to say, completely awestruck when I read these messages, much the same way I get that feeling when reading metal lyrics or hearing certain music. I certainly have faith in what the Bible says.

There are a couple more points of criticism I want give my view on. One is the assertion that religious beliefs may be a form of weakness. I can certainly see where this is coming from, because I thought exactly this. Religion seemed like a crutch to me for quite a while. But I have found the last year or so that it actually requires a lot of strength to have faith in something that is not tangible. The faith lies in something that is purely spiritual. I don't really think about the historical events in the Bible. They may or may not have happened, but it is not really the events that I have faith in. As I said before, it is only the messages, which to me is what has the most significance.

Just one more thing to comment on... Some have said that religion is no longer applicable to today, a.k.a., God is dead. I agree that it does seem that way. But to me it's more the fact that the world is dead. The world seems so self indulgent to me anymore, that it almost seems beyond hope. It almost makes the Bible look completely ridiculous, as if to say, yeah right, that could never happen in this world. But as Orion said, the messages are timeless. I've just been seeing it as the world straying farther and farther away. I just try to do my best to hold on, which certainly is not easy.

Awesome thread.

 

[veil the sky]

I think the big brother comment is the most interesting- I have always believed most of all that jesus was a political rebel- a man seeking freedom- religious and otherwise- from the corruption and injustice of the Roman State- now I have always thought the biggest problem- and hypocrisy of Christianity- was how Christianity was molded into a exact copy of the Roman state when Constantine made it the state religion- it seems from this point forward- Christianity gained in popularity- but lost its message. Instead of changing the world- churches started to preach about preserving the status quo, even the injustices of the political states - and churches still do this. Even protestant churches are guilty of the same crime- the lutherans would be the best example.

i absolutely agree. when christianity became political, then the problems started, and constantine is primairily responsible. roman catholicism is the ultimate example of personal religion blown up into monolithic political ideology. creating this kind of religious dogmatism stopped christianity being the personal experience it was supposed to be.

The sad part is- I think Christianity has been proven wrong for almost 2,000 years now- Christianity has been used to justify war- racism- sexism- slavery, just about every atrocity one can think of- through no fault of its creator- I suppose the morality of christ has been so diluted and twisted that it no longer has any meaning- how can it have any meaning when the Catholic church decides what Christian morality is every day- or baptist ministers decide war is sanctified on Christian grounds the list goes on and on-

people use their beliefs to justify their actions. and christian people have been guilty of racism, warmongering, sexism and slavery. it should be no surprise, or a condemnation of 'christian faith' that some of these people have called themselves christians and referred to their own 'christian' beliefs to account for themselves. it doesn't reflect christianity itself, it just reflects people themselves. this is the mistake Nietzsche made.

you don't 'prove something wrong' by reference to the fact that it has been used in ways we disapprove of!

On this note- I feel even the New Testament is a product of all that Jesus loathed and taught against- as there were such a number of compelling and interesting gospels of christ that were not chosen to make up the new testament- as church leaders didnt believe they fit the message the church was trying to make. I n fact I understand a few gospels were written in much the same way as the Buddhist Dhammapada- others did not mention miracles- others mentioned the role of women- others stated mary was not a virgin- the list goes on. So, as one can see- I feel even the selection of the holy books of the new testament was a political act- contrary to Christ.

again this is so true. the canon-isation of religious text is simply the pinnacle of politicisation. i think the bible is the most important religious text we have, but christians should not be discouraged from questioning everything about their religion, right down to the construction of the bible itself. genuine belief entails this kind of process and is impossible without genuine critical thought.

 

[Malleus]

Here's what I find the most hypocritical (and I may get jumped on for this). Black Metalers who say they believe in Satan and have this overwhelming urge to shove their religious beliefs (because that is what they are) down your throat, or call you a wimp if you believe in God. I ask you, what is wimpier? A blind belief in the devil and racism or a soulful belief in God wherein the person is peaceful and not hateful?

Relax, I'm not gonna jump on you, but I highly doubt that most black metalers are true satanists, I think it's mostly posing, there are a few, sure, but I think most of these bands and their fans use this image only as a demonstration of being against religion. Having said that, I LOVE black metal, and I have no satanic beliefs at all.

BTW, if anybody got the impression I believe you have to disrespect religious people to be an atheist, I'm sorry.

 

[speed]

Tebus- you mentioned it was not Christianity that erred- but the world. This has reminded me of the Story of the Grand Inquisitor found in the Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky- A Bishop or cardinal of the inquisition finds jesus in spain- jails him- and goes on to ask Jesus why he chose free will for the world over the earthly bread offerred by Satan in the desert. The bishop castigates Jesus on the fact that the masses cannot truly appreciate and use their free will- they need the earthly bread the catholic church provides- Maybe the world doesnt appreciate and understand - or even have the capacity to understand just what Christ gave them- maybe Christ should have taken the earthly bread- I think you are right- the world( or the masses) have decided to accept the earthly bread- and they forget the truth of Christianity.

Orion- looking back on it- I think what you have- and so many practicing Christians have- is faith- it is only faith that is keeping Christianity from going the way of arcane dead religions like: Greek Mythology, Druidism etc. Yet, I suppose my point is, soon the world will seem even more and more seperated from the old mythology of Christianity- and it will become even harder for one to have faith. I know in Europe Christianity is close to dying- as I remember entering cathedrals and churches on Sun. and only seeing a few old women there- in fact Christianity is just never brought up that much in Europe the many times I have lived there. Islam has decided to stagnate the progress of the world in favor of their religion- I hope Christianity does not fall down the same path - and decides to evolve- I think Christianity needs another reformation- and a big one- but that is obviously my opinion.

Veil of the Sky- yes I agree the many wars atrocities etc in the name of Christianity doesnt reflect christianity itself- I suppose i was using these examples to show the many political and other uses that Christianity has fallen victim to. Or maybe I got carried away in my haste to write these messages- and forgot simple logic. Yes Nietszche was a bit off wasnt he- I have always found his writings to be a bit overated- oh well he was a egomaniacal philosopher- what else can one expect.